Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

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bk1
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Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:14 pm

I was in Borders yesterday and decided to flip through USNWR latest guide to law schools. Looking at the demographics section, it was divided up into (if I am recalling this correctly): Men, Women, White, African-American, Asian, Mexican, Puerto-Rican, Other.

An odd thing I noticed was that tons of schools were listed as 0% Mexican and 0% Puerto Rican. I first noticed it when I saw NYU as having 0% for both. I looked up some of the UC's, which I assumed would probably have a higher Hispanic population compared to other schools, and noticed that these weren't always 0% (still a lot of 0%'s though), yet often less than 1%.

Outside of MX/PR's being rarer than AA's (which seemed to clock in at around 5%), one thought was that schools reported Hispanics as an entire group without subdividing them and thus the USNWR lumped them into "Other" and reported 0% for MX/PR because they were not given any data regarding it. Other than that, are they really that rare? I find it hard to believe that, for example, NYU's law school has not a single Mexican or Puerto Rican student.

Anybody able to clear this up for me?

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby Knock » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:17 pm

bk1 wrote:I was in Borders yesterday and decided to flip through USNWR latest guide to law schools. Looking at the demographics section, it was divided up into (if I am recalling this correctly): Men, Women, White, African-American, Asian, Mexican, Puerto-Rican, Other.

An odd thing I noticed was that tons of schools were listed as 0% Mexican and 0% Puerto Rican. I first noticed it when I saw NYU as having 0% for both. I looked up some of the UC's, which I assumed would probably have a higher Hispanic population compared to other schools, and noticed that these weren't always 0% (still a lot of 0%'s though), yet often less than 1%.

Outside of MX/PR's being rarer than AA's (which seemed to clock in at around 5%), one thought was that schools reported Hispanics as an entire group without subdividing them and thus the USNWR lumped them into "Other" and reported 0% for MX/PR because they were not given any data regarding it. Other than that, are they really that rare? I find it hard to believe that, for example, NYU's law school has not a single Mexican or Puerto Rican student.

Anybody able to clear this up for me?


Interested to hear this one as well. I've heard that some law schools only have a Hispanic option and not more specific identifications, but I haven't encountered that in the few applications i've filled out so far.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:35 pm

Latino/a is also a popular categorization.

Though few and far between they definitely do exist at NYU. I won't solely rely on USNews though. Contact NYU's Latino Law Students Association if you're looking for the real breakdown.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:52 pm

I really wish there was an online version of it (that didn't cost money) and not just the USNWR book. Schools incoming class profiles invariably list "Students of Color" rather than a more nuanced breakdown so that isn't very helpful.

While I assumed that 0%/0% was due to the way in which a given school presented data, schools that were something like 0% MX/0.8% PR (one of the UC's was like this) I assumed had to have given subdivisions within Hispanic/Latin@ and was just shocked that within 3 years worth of currently enrolled law school students at a UC there was not a single Mexican.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:56 pm

So one of the probs with the Asian group is that there's a large disparity between the Japanese/Chinese/Korean vs. the southeast Asians in terms of wealth and academic success. However, all are lumped together--so you end up with mainly Japanese/Chinese/Korean students and very few SE Asians. One idea(which might be totally off) is that this is happening for the Hispanic/Latino/a population---they're all grouped together, so the dominant sub-group numbers-wise tends to take over. If I recall correctly, that group is weak for LSAT scores.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:57 pm

acrossthelake wrote:So one of the probs with the Asian group is that there's a large disparity between the Japanese/Chinese/Korean vs. the southeast Asians in terms of wealth and academic success. However, all are lumped together--so you end up with mainly Japanese/Chinese/Korean students and very few SE Asians. One idea(which might be totally off) is that this is happening for the Hispanic/Latino/a population---they're all grouped together, so the dominant sub-group tends to take over.


The fact that MX/PR are URM's while other Hispanics are not begs to differ.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:So one of the probs with the Asian group is that there's a large disparity between the Japanese/Chinese/Korean vs. the southeast Asians in terms of wealth and academic success. However, all are lumped together--so you end up with mainly Japanese/Chinese/Korean students and very few SE Asians. One idea(which might be totally off) is that this is happening for the Hispanic/Latino/a population---they're all grouped together, so the dominant sub-group tends to take over.


The fact that MX/PR are URM's while other Hispanics are not begs to differ.


Such as?

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:So one of the probs with the Asian group is that there's a large disparity between the Japanese/Chinese/Korean vs. the southeast Asians in terms of wealth and academic success. However, all are lumped together--so you end up with mainly Japanese/Chinese/Korean students and very few SE Asians. One idea(which might be totally off) is that this is happening for the Hispanic/Latino/a population---they're all grouped together, so the dominant sub-group tends to take over.


The fact that MX/PR are URM's while other Hispanics are not begs to differ.


Oh is that true? Huh. In that case that's bizarre. I'm just guessing here--as noted with the (which might be totally off). Do you have any stats to know at what rates those groups are even applying to top schools?

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 pm

No idea, I'm just parroting the TLS wisdom that URM is only: AA/NA/MX/PR. Nothing else, meaning no other Hispanics.

How often are other Hispanics (other Latin/South Americans and Spaniards) applying to law school? I would guess not too often considering their populations are quite small within the U.S. thus very few would be applying to law school. Personally, I know very few Hispanic people that are not MX/PR, the only one off the top of my head is a Chilean friend of mine.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:12 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:Though few and far between they definitely do exist at NYU. I won't solely rely on USNews though. Contact NYU's Latino Law Students Association if you're looking for the real breakdown.


Got a fairly quick response from them that confirmed my suspicion that it was probably due to the way that USNWR handles the data. They said that the Hispanic population is around 10% at NYU and fairly diverse among different types.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:18 pm

bk1 wrote:No idea, I'm just parroting the TLS wisdom that URM is only: AA/NA/MX/PR. Nothing else, meaning no other Hispanics.

How often are other Hispanics (other Latin/South Americans and Spaniards) applying to law school? I would guess not too often considering their populations are quite small within the U.S. thus very few would be applying to law school. Personally, I know very few Hispanic people that are not MX/PR, the only one off the top of my head is a Chilean friend of mine.


Lets not forget the Caribbean and Central America Hispanic/Latino populations - Dominicans from the DR, Panamanians, Hondurians come to mind all of whom have a community of their own in NYC and surrounding areas.

At the end of the day it comes down to how the applicant see his or herself. TLS "wisdom" need not apply when filling out an application or walking a day in the life of an URM.
Last edited by EbonyEsq on Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:Though few and far between they definitely do exist at NYU. I won't solely rely on USNews though. Contact NYU's Latino Law Students Association if you're looking for the real breakdown.


Got a fairly quick response from them that confirmed my suspicion that it was probably due to the way that USNWR handles the data. They said that the Hispanic population is around 10% at NYU and fairly diverse among different types.


Yup, thought so. But then again, its NYU. NYC has a significant Hispanic population majority of whom come from Central America and Mexico.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:22 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:Lets not forget the Caribbean and Central America Hispanic/Latino populations - Dominicans from the DR, Panamanians, Hondurians come to mind and definitely do have a community of their own in NYC and surrounding areas.

At the end of the day it comes down to how the applicant see his or herself. TLS "wisdom" need not apply when filling out an application or walking a day in the life of an URM.


I'm not saying that other Hispanics shouldn't take a shot at super-reaches, I am just saying that it is unlikely they will receive anything as large as the other URM's would. This has nothing to do with what people have experienced and does not mean to degrade or discount what people have been through, merely to point out how things are.

My reason for posting this topic has nothing to do with being a URM, the boost, or admissions at all. It has to do with seeing 0% next to two demographic categories in the USNWR book and my incredulity with those statistics because I highly doubted that there were 0 of those two groups at a bunch of different schools.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:25 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:Yup, thought so. But then again, its NYU. NYC has a significant Hispanic population majority of whom come from Central America and Mexico.


Thanks for the idea, btw. I would expect NYC's Hispanic population to have fewer Chican@s, percentage-wise, than other places would.

I might contact the other schools, but I'm just gonna chalk the USNWR book up to the way in which data gets reported.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:28 pm

bk1 wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:Yup, thought so. But then again, its NYU. NYC has a significant Hispanic population majority of whom come from Central America and Mexico.


Thanks for the idea, btw. I would expect NYC's Hispanic population to have fewer Chican@s, percentage-wise, than other places would.

I might contact the other schools, but I'm just gonna chalk the USNWR book up to the way in which data gets reported.


Cool beans. I'm just happy they have a Latino/Hispanic student org. I know many schools that do not which speaks volumes in and of itself.

May I ask why the curiosity with the percentage of Hispanic/Latino populations?? Are you by chance a URM of that population?

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:30 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:Cool beans. I'm just happy they have a Latino/Hispanic student org. I know many schools don't which speaks volumes in and of itself.

May I ask why the curiosity with the percentage of Hispanic/Latino populations?? Are you by chance a URM of that population?


I'm both PR/MX. As noted I was bored at Borders and leafing through the USNWR law school guide, where they list PR and MX but no other Hispanics or even a category for Hispanic, and I was shocked by the sheer number of 0%'s. I can't believe how lazy they are, it's not like it was hard for them to print that book out, it should be a bit more accurate than having a glaring error like that on almost every page.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby ArchRoark » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:00 pm

LSAC has the ABA breakdown for each school. Even using this as a reference, some schools, report zero Mexican-American attendance. Below is NYU's

http://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/S ... BA2599.pdf

NYU's stats
Image

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby Knock » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:08 pm

^ Any idea where I can find this information for all ABA accredited schools, rather than on a school by school basis? I know i've seen it somewhere in that form, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:11 pm

@Tiva: Very helpful, thanks!

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby ArchRoark » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:29 pm

Knockglock - Nope - Sorry, but if you find it, let me know. I would be interested in seeing the breakdown as well.

bk1 - np

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby Horchata » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:57 am

bk1 wrote:I really wish there was an online version of it (that didn't cost money) and not just the USNWR book. Schools incoming class profiles invariably list "Students of Color" rather than a more nuanced breakdown so that isn't very helpful.

While I assumed that 0%/0% was due to the way in which a given school presented data, schools that were something like 0% MX/0.8% PR (one of the UC's was like this) I assumed had to have given subdivisions within Hispanic/Latin@ and was just shocked that within 3 years worth of currently enrolled law school students at a UC there was not a single Mexican.


I also think it is very disingenuous to lump everyone together, as well. Heck, forget law schools, the government lumped Mexican-Americans with Caucasians until the 50's (which basically gave the govt. the ok to not afford them 14th amendment protections and discriminate against them). I think if schools reported their real Mex/PR stats they would get a lot of attention from various angles. I really don't see how it's ok to people - in this forum, the general public, and law schools - to have MA/PR enrollment be staggering low at law schools around the country. I'm just going to say it: no one gives a shit; it's really incredible. Although schools say they want a class as diverse as the gen. pop. (as some schools specifically say this), they lump all minorities together w/o breaking it down by ethnicity, undermining their very statement. As for the UC's, I think that is really bad - that they don't have more MA's considering our presence in CA. But realistically, considering the drop out rate of Chicano students in Cali (I know it is about 50 percent in San Diego) I'm not that surprised that's the case. To be honest, I feel blessed to even be in my current position. I even wish there were more Mex/PR posters on this forum to discuss this. No where else can you do it (btw, thanks Ken).

Law schools do have the ability to report this information. Of the applications I've done so, I think almost all had a Mexican/Chicano box to choose from outside the Latino box. Actually, this could be the answer...idk, though....they ask you if your Latino - the reportable number for their website - but then also ask you for a particular breakdown - idk maybe a number they send to the government. Actually...they could just ask you Mex/Chicano and just do their own tallying and lumping at the same time, without a Latino box. In not sure, but to me it is a little weird all schools have been asking whether you are Latino, then another box for a specific breakdown within this group - maybe they use it for their own internal purposes. I digress, sorry for the written rant - just trying to work this out with you all.

By the way, the lumping of ethnicities together gives some people (--LinkRemoved--) the opening to say that everything is ok with MA/PRs. Since all Latinos are rising in law school, therefore the whole Mexican/PR issue really isn't that bad. The problem is obviously that Mexican Americans make up roughly 10 percent of the pop. and posed to rise in the 20's in the coming decades, while probably still having lagging law school enrollment at the same time.

Other than that, are they really that rare?


Yes and I don't like it one bit. It's one of many reasons why I want to go to law school.

Anybody able to clear this up for me?


I think you might find a portion of your answer in a thread I started and ended. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=125003

(Edited for glaring grammar mistakes)

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby Horchata » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:04 am

Tiva wrote:LSAC has the ABA breakdown for each school. Even using this as a reference, some schools, report zero Mexican-American attendance. Below is NYU's

http://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/S ... BA2599.pdf

NYU's stats
Image


Good post. Thx Tiva

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

@Horchata:

The government has been doing racist shit forever, I think it is a little disingenuous to point out something that happened 50 years ago like it is some special case. Everything sucked for all minorities for a long ass time, and still does to a certain extent though the government has made significant strides. Though, on a technical side, Hispanics are either white or black (or Asian or some other ethnicity, though mainly white).

Schools definitely do not lump all Hispanics together. The fact that Mexicans and Puerto Ricans get a large URM bump while others get little to nothing basically proves this. The VolokhConspiracy article you posted got this wrong. What are you talking about sending this info to the government? Do you mean them reporting it to the ABA and LSAC? Also note that LSAC has its own ethnicity form that you can have sent with your application packet (that breaks down ethnicities more than most of the schools do). I wouldn't get too on about the schools accurately reporting to USNWR because they are accurately reporting to LSAC/ABA I would assume the USNWR figures are due to the way in witch USNWR asked for the data or compiled the data.

The Hispanic breakdown in the question isn't that weird, considering the "Other" category (because it would then have to say "Other Hispanic"). I wouldn't get worked up over it, it really isn't a big deal either way. And this is how every other ethnicity works on these forms as well (choosing Asian and then specifically Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc).

Yes, MX/PR's and Hispanics in general are not as represented in law as they are in the general pop. Law schools are doing what they can to change this, no need to be so irate about it. Does it suck? Of course it does. But on the flipside law schools could be doing nothing to change it.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby Horchata » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:16 pm

Yeah, I hear ya. Sorry, it's was just pretty crazy at my house and I posted real late at night because I couldn't sleep over the shitstorm here. Sorry I took it out on you guys. Back to the discussion:

Like you originally mentioned though, law schools don't lump MA/PR together in regards to a bump, giving MA/PR. higher bumps. However, like you said, they do lump them together when reporting that info on their websites and probably other places, at least I rarely see it. (It would be really cool if we could get all the schools info like Tiva posted.) I only mentioned the whole historical aspect because it had to do with lumping of MA - I'm not sure that many people know that (I shouldn't have said it in that way though, too.)

I'm not too sure about what you mention about how Hispanics are, "white or black (or Asian or some other ethnicity, though mainly white)." Are you saying their are their own separate ethnicity? I would check out the case Hernandez v. Texas which established that they (we) are not white or black, but our own separate category (well, for voting rights purposes - but I think it extended to other areas of society as well). My grandpa even mentioned this to me.

I think your last point regarding how law schools are in fact trying to change this, is right on - I definitely did skim over this on my rant last night. I do think that we in our own community, however, should be trying to address this better. Maybe when we become big shot lawyers, we can do something about it verdad?


Again, sorry for the craziness that pervaded my last post.

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Re: Rarity of Mexicans/Puerto Ricans in Law School

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:25 pm

That breakdown Tiva posted is straight from LSAC, which I assume all the schools report to with that sort of breakdown. What more do you want from them? While I understand that their glossy handouts do things to obscure the truth (like reporting 44% persons of color without distinguishing between AA, MA, Asian American, etc), they also unabashedly report very biased employment data. These things are designed to attract students with half-truths, I don't really care that much that they are not entirely forthcoming in their brochures. I am just happy that they have the breakdowns reported to LSAC, which is good enough for me.

As for white overlapping with Hispanic, I am just going by the way it is reported in the latest U.S. census where Hispanic/Latin@ denotes ethnicity while white/black/etc denote race.




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