Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
CadburysForever
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Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:19 pm

Hi everyone. I was browsing through this forum, and I kept noticing posts stating that Arab/Persian/Middler Eastern etc. do not count as URMs. Why is that? I am honestly confused. Someone stated that technically the "skull structure" of Arabs, Persians, Afghans and Pakistanis is "Caucasoid." That seems like the kind of absurd reasoning that would come from the writers of the Bell Curve or something. From what I understand, being a URM is significantly about at least one of the following (obvi, not an exhaustive list): 1) being a member of a group that has faced and/or is still facing oppression; 2) having characteristics or experiences that are diverse (usually culturally or socio-economically) compared to the WASP-y kind of life; 3) being a member of a group that is underrepresented in the field of higher education applicable to the situation.

Arabs et al. certainly fit the first two criteria, and with regards to law, fit the third as well. In fact, the oppression that this particular group faces today in the U.S. is inextricably linked with the American justice system, which makes an Arab etc. entering the legal profession all the more different/significant. Yet somehow being an Arab etc. is simultaneously the equivalent of being white to American law schools yet suspected terrorist to the American law making and enforcement system?

N.B. To be more clear, the groups I mentioned and American Muslims in general overlap a great deal; however, there are considerably more American Muslims who are not members of the mentioned groups (30% African American, plus European immigrants and white converts) than there are non-Muslims who are members of the mentioned groups (in the U.S.). That's why I asked about these groups and not American Muslims in general.

N.B.2. For full disclosure, since it seems people really like shouting "flame" (what does this actually mean, btw?) whenever someone asks an unusual question, I am not Arab or Persian. I am Muslim, however. Please no Islamophobic posts, I will just ignore you, and maybe use you as one more example in my diversity statement :)

09042014
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:22 pm

Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.

chitown825
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby chitown825 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:23 pm

Post count 1 in the URM forum = flame

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:29 pm

CadburysForever wrote: From what I understand, being a URM is significantly about at least one of the following (obvi, not an exhaustive list): 1) being a member of a group that has faced and/or is still facing oppression; 2) having characteristics or experiences that are diverse (usually culturally or socio-economically) compared to the WASP-y kind of life; 3) being a member of a group that is underrepresented in the field of higher education applicable to the situation.


You understand incorrectly. I have edited the following quote to make it more accurate:

[strike]From what I understand,[/strike]being a URM is [strike]significantly about at least one of the followingobvi, not an exhaustive list): 1) being a member of a group that has faced and/or is still facing oppression; 2) having characteristics or experiences that are diverse (usually culturally or socio-economically) compared to the WASP-y kind of life; 3)[/strike] being a member of a group that is underrepresented in [strike]the field of[/strike] higher education[strike]applicable to the situation.[/strike]


You listed as the definition of URM what you wanted it to be, not what it actually is.

Edit: Also, chip on your shoulder much?

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.


Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.? Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.

09042014
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:39 pm

CadburysForever wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.


Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.? Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.


You can still write a diversity statement, because you will add diversity to the class, you just won't get reduced admissions standards because of it.

Chinese, Koreans, and women do not get a URM boost.

Representation is measured by lumping all fields together, and for good reason. If more Arabs go into math, science or engineering, for one reason or another, that means less will be available for law.

Arabs aren't underrepresented in higher education, and they aren't discriminated against in academic admissions. There is no reason to give them a boost.

There are also plenty arab focused scholarships. http://www.aaiusa.org/foundation/33/scholarships
Last edited by 09042014 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby Kiersten1985 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:40 pm

CadburysForever wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.


Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.? Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.


URM is only Puerto Rican American, African American, Mexican American, and Native American. Women are not URM. Asian Americans are not URM. Middle Eastern Americans are not URM. Sorry, but your initial definition of what a technical URM is, is just wrong. URM does not equal "any minority."

Anyone is free to write a diversity statement. That has nothing to do with being a URM.

When have you seen said privileged status in minority scholarships? Scholarships from private organizations? They can do whatever they want. Again, nothing to do with actual URM status.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:41 pm

CadburysForever wrote:
Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.?

A diversity statement is not the same as being considered a URM by a school. A diversity statement is just something non-WASP people write to try and get some sort of boost for whatever diversity the law school will perceive them as bringing to the school.


Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

This question doesn't make any sense and is also irrelevant.

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.

Except representation is measured by lumping all groups together, at least for the purpose of determining what counts as "underrepresented". This is how higher education institutions determine who counts as "underrepresented". South and East Asians rarely qualify for scholarships aimed at underrepresented minorities because, as far as higher education is concerned, South and East Asians are seriously overrepresented.

OG Loc
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby OG Loc » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:44 pm

--ImageRemoved--

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:45 pm

I apologize, I misunderstood the meaning of URM status. I guess I was reading the wrong stuff; some pre-law materials online (including from some universities) used topics for diversity statements and having URM as a hook seemingly interchangeably, so I wrongly conflated the two. My bad, and thanks for explaining it to me.

But to whoever said I had a chip on my shoulder... you should not judge until you have walked a day in another's shoes...

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MC Southstar
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby MC Southstar » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:48 pm

Your only disadvantage is white people hate you.

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:50 pm

MC Southstar wrote:Your only disadvantage is white people hate you.


Haha. And that's the one that counts the most :)

OG Loc
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby OG Loc » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:57 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:
CadburysForever wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.


Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.? Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.


URM is only Puerto Rican American, African American, Mexican American, and Native American. Women are not URM. Asian Americans are not URM. Middle Eastern Americans are not URM. Sorry, but your initial definition of what a technical URM is, is just wrong. URM does not equal "any minority."

Anyone is free to write a diversity statement. That has nothing to do with being a URM.

When have you seen said privileged status in minority scholarships? Scholarships from private organizations? They can do whatever they want. Again, nothing to do with actual URM status.


It seems odd to me that PR's are considered URMs but not Dominicans.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby Kiersten1985 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:59 pm

OG Loc wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
CadburysForever wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Are Arabs and Persians underrepresented in higher education? No, that is why.


Then why have I seen examples of diversity statements from Chinese Americans and Korean Americans etc.? Why are women also given privileged status along with URMs in recruiting for minority scholarships etc.?

Also, as I indicated in my post, representation isn't measured by lumping all fields together. Each field has different criteria. This is why, for instance, there are scholarships for URMs majoring in the sciences and math which South and East Asians do not qualify for.


URM is only Puerto Rican American, African American, Mexican American, and Native American. Women are not URM. Asian Americans are not URM. Middle Eastern Americans are not URM. Sorry, but your initial definition of what a technical URM is, is just wrong. URM does not equal "any minority."

Anyone is free to write a diversity statement. That has nothing to do with being a URM.

When have you seen said privileged status in minority scholarships? Scholarships from private organizations? They can do whatever they want. Again, nothing to do with actual URM status.


It seems odd to me that PR's are considered URMs but not Dominicans.


Probably something to do with a) the number of PR's in the States and b) the fact that PR is a US territory (I know, Mexico isn't).

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MC Southstar
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby MC Southstar » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:00 pm

The term URM should be changed to Blaxicoricans.

OG Loc
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby OG Loc » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:
OG Loc wrote:
It seems odd to me that PR's are considered URMs but not Dominicans.


Probably something to do with a) the number of PR's in the States and b) the fact that PR is a US territory (I know, Mexico isn't).


Also I'd imagine many/most Dominican Americans would qualify as AA anyway.

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merichard87
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby merichard87 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:03 pm

OG Loc wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
OG Loc wrote:
It seems odd to me that PR's are considered URMs but not Dominicans.


Probably something to do with a) the number of PR's in the States and b) the fact that PR is a US territory (I know, Mexico isn't).


Also I'd imagine many/most Dominican Americans would qualify as AA anyway.


Depends on how you define AA.
AA = being of African orgin =/= AA = being "black" of any nationality or racial group

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nematoad
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby nematoad » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:14 pm

merichard87 wrote:
OG Loc wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
OG Loc wrote:
It seems odd to me that PR's are considered URMs but not Dominicans.


Probably something to do with a) the number of PR's in the States and b) the fact that PR is a US territory (I know, Mexico isn't).


Also I'd imagine many/most Dominican Americans would qualify as AA anyway.


Depends on how you define AA.
AA = being of African orgin =/= AA = being "black" of any nationality or racial group

well when the spaniards owed the DR they imported African slaves. so most of the "black" people are prob a mix of African and native.

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:47 pm

So, I also just noticed the sticky at the top of the forum defining URM. Apologies again, I was just confused, partly also because the forum title is "Under Represented Law Students," but clearly more than just technically URM issues are discussed here. Anyway, I have a question (unrelated to Arabs, no worries):

Is the URM category for "Blacks" one big category for anyone who has African ancestry? Does this mean no distinction is made between American descendants of African slaves and recent (i.e. in the last few decades) immigrants from Africa? If African immigrants are included, how is that justified? I'm wondering because it seems that African immigrants are highly overrepresented (only topped by Asians) in higher education. In fact, they make up a disproportionate percentage of Black students in college. They're over-represented yet count as URM, and they're taking away spots from African Americans who actually are underrepresented?

Maybe I'm totally missing something (like I was before, lol), so could someone please explain if so?

Thank you!

09042014
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:49 pm

CadburysForever wrote:So, I also just noticed the sticky at the top of the forum defining URM. Apologies again, I was just confused, partly also because the forum title is "Under Represented Law Students," but clearly more than just technically URM issues are discussed here. Anyway, I have a question (unrelated to Arabs, no worries):

Is the URM category for "Blacks" one big category for anyone who has African ancestry? Does this mean no distinction is made between American descendants of African slaves and recent (i.e. in the last few decades) immigrants from Africa? If African immigrants are included, how is that justified? I'm wondering because it seems that African immigrants are highly overrepresented (only topped by Asians) in higher education. In fact, they make up a disproportionate percentage of Black students in college. They're over-represented yet count as URM, and they're taking away spots from African Americans who actually are underrepresented?

Maybe I'm totally missing something (like I was before, lol), so could someone please explain if so?

Thank you!


TL;DR they mean black, not Egyptian or Libyan. And partially counts.
Last edited by 09042014 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DavidYurman85
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby DavidYurman85 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:53 pm

CadburysForever wrote:So, I also just noticed the sticky at the top of the forum defining URM. Apologies again, I was just confused, partly also because the forum title is "Under Represented Law Students," but clearly more than just technically URM issues are discussed here. Anyway, I have a question (unrelated to Arabs, no worries):

Is the URM category for "Blacks" one big category for anyone who has African ancestry? Does this mean no distinction is made between American descendants of African slaves and recent (i.e. in the last few decades) immigrants from Africa? If African immigrants are included, how is that justified? I'm wondering because it seems that African immigrants are highly overrepresented (only topped by Asians) in higher education. In fact, they make up a disproportionate percentage of Black students in college. They're over-represented yet count as URM, and they're taking away spots from African Americans who actually are underrepresented?

Maybe I'm totally missing something (like I was before, lol), so could someone please explain if so?

Thank you!


short answer, yes.

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
CadburysForever wrote:So, I also just noticed the sticky at the top of the forum defining URM. Apologies again, I was just confused, partly also because the forum title is "Under Represented Law Students," but clearly more than just technically URM issues are discussed here. Anyway, I have a question (unrelated to Arabs, no worries):

Is the URM category for "Blacks" one big category for anyone who has African ancestry? Does this mean no distinction is made between American descendants of African slaves and recent (i.e. in the last few decades) immigrants from Africa? If African immigrants are included, how is that justified? I'm wondering because it seems that African immigrants are highly overrepresented (only topped by Asians) in higher education. In fact, they make up a disproportionate percentage of Black students in college. They're over-represented yet count as URM, and they're taking away spots from African Americans who actually are underrepresented?

Maybe I'm totally missing something (like I was before, lol), so could someone please explain if so?

Thank you!

TL;DR they mean black, not Egyptian or Libyan.


Wait what? I'm not asking about North African immigrants. I mean immigrants from Sub-Saharan Africa. You can see the statistics on over-representation here (well, in the footnotes you can find the sources): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_im ... attainment
Last edited by CadburysForever on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

CadburysForever wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
CadburysForever wrote:So, I also just noticed the sticky at the top of the forum defining URM. Apologies again, I was just confused, partly also because the forum title is "Under Represented Law Students," but clearly more than just technically URM issues are discussed here. Anyway, I have a question (unrelated to Arabs, no worries):

Is the URM category for "Blacks" one big category for anyone who has African ancestry? Does this mean no distinction is made between American descendants of African slaves and recent (i.e. in the last few decades) immigrants from Africa? If African immigrants are included, how is that justified? I'm wondering because it seems that African immigrants are highly overrepresented (only topped by Asians) in higher education. In fact, they make up a disproportionate percentage of Black students in college. They're over-represented yet count as URM, and they're taking away spots from African Americans who actually are underrepresented?

Maybe I'm totally missing something (like I was before, lol), so could someone please explain if so?

Thank you!


Wait what? I'm not asking about North African immigrants. I mean immigrants from Sub-Saharan Africa. You can see the statistics on over-representation here (well, in the footnotes you can find the sources): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_im ... attainment
TL;DR they mean black, not Egyptian or Libyan.


African immigrants do count. Basically you have to black, or part black.

jaminben
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby jaminben » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:00 pm

i don't get it.

it says, African American OR black. So you don't have to be black to be African American.

so what does it mean to be African american? can anyone help with that?

CadburysForever
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Re: Arabs/Persians etc. as URMs?

Postby CadburysForever » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:03 pm

Any knowledge on official or unofficial justification for inclusion of recent African immigrants? I'm just curious about what's common speculation/commentary on this out there, if any. Not interested in debating. :)




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