Lack of URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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3 Stripes
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 3 Stripes » Wed May 19, 2010 5:43 pm

oberlin08 wrote:
3 Stripes wrote:I would also want to know why black marriages are at an all-time low while interracial marriages appear to be at an all-time high.

I'm sure the educational achievement disparity between black males and black females has to factor in somewhere. But I think the issue is deeper than that.



Yea i definitely think the gender disparity in terms of achievement plays a large large role.

Also, among black marriages among poverty level populations, a lot of the men are going to jail..



But, in all honesty, I believe the excuse that a lot of black men are going to jail is, more or less, a cop-out excuse. That's not to downplay that factor and its significance on the issue but I believe that, even still, there is a good number of eligible black men. But then, the educational achievement gap may wittle a number of those men out, as well.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Wed May 19, 2010 5:43 pm

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Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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oberlin08
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby oberlin08 » Wed May 19, 2010 5:49 pm

3 Stripes wrote:
oberlin08 wrote:
3 Stripes wrote:I would also want to know why black marriages are at an all-time low while interracial marriages appear to be at an all-time high.

I'm sure the educational achievement disparity between black males and black females has to factor in somewhere. But I think the issue is deeper than that.



Yea i definitely think the gender disparity in terms of achievement plays a large large role.

Also, among black marriages among poverty level populations, a lot of the men are going to jail..



But, in all honesty, I believe the excuse that a lot of black men are going to jail is, more or less, a cop-out excuse. That's not to downplay that factor and its significance on the issue but I believe that, even still, there is a good number of eligible black men. But then, the educational achievement gap may wittle a number of those men out, as well.



While I understand your viewpoint of it being a cop-out excuse, in some populations its a very real and serious issue. Not only are black men in these communities going to jail, theyre going to jail for a long time. Some drug offenses can put one away for 20+ years. and ONE conviction can has lifelong effects in terms of the amount one can earn etc, and all that is going to affect marriage rates.

Now with the jail issue im talking about the poverty level communities mostly. With the more educated black communities, i think it just it has more to do with there simply being less "eligible" black men than black "eligible" women. A lot less. Back to the original topic of this thread - black women are going to college at a rate 3x or 4x the rate of black men. And that's exacorbated with advanced degrees.

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20121109
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 20121109 » Wed May 19, 2010 5:51 pm

Interesting APNS, but aren't W/AA interracial relationships more rampant with AA men/W women, than AA women/W men? That quote may address some factors, but there are definite holes.

<3

APimpNamedSlickback
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Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Wed May 19, 2010 5:54 pm

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hellokitty
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hellokitty » Wed May 19, 2010 5:57 pm

trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it


I've been trying to figure this out for a while no, still no answer.

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20121109
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 20121109 » Wed May 19, 2010 5:58 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Interesting APNS, but aren't W/AA interracial relationships more rampant with AA men/W women, than AA women/W men? That quote may address some factors, but there are definite holes.

<3


i think the numbers suggest that there would be more black women than men in interracial relationships, no? just because of the shortage of black men that are actually on the marriage market. i have no numbers to back this up though.


But culturally, its quite clear that more black men are in interracial relationships with our white counterparts than black women, right? I remember reading that approx. 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3

hellokitty
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hellokitty » Wed May 19, 2010 6:02 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Interesting APNS, but aren't W/AA interracial relationships more rampant with AA men/W women, than AA women/W men? That quote may address some factors, but there are definite holes.

<3


i think the numbers suggest that there would be more black women than men in interracial relationships, no? just because of the shortage of black men that are actually on the marriage market. i have no numbers to back this up though.


But culturally, its quite clear that more black men are in interracial relationships with our white counterparts than black women, right? I remember reading that approx. 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3


Nearly 100% sure that Gaia is correct...I wish I had time to look for the numbers, but I have to get going, perhaps when I come back!

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed May 19, 2010 6:04 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote: 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3

Did the source you get this from list percentages for all races? I'm worried about my sister. :lol:

I would think it would still be fairly high though.

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oberlin08
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby oberlin08 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:06 pm

I think there's an issue here with the interracial marriage thing that no one has really addressed - but it's been flirted with - and that is the issue of choice in marriage, obviously at somepoint everyone has a 'choice' to one extent or another who they marry and why, and that's each individual's personal choice and right. I'm not really convinced that for interracial marriages, black men choose to marry white (or other) women anymore than black women choose to marry white (or other) men.

APimpNamedSlickBack - the numbers alone suggest that yes maybe more black women marry white (or other) men then the other way around, being that much more black women reach higher levels of education then black men. However, I dont think its THAT simple.

However, there are also large large amounts of older unmarried black women. I have no stats to offer here, but I assure you if you do a little snooping on google, you can find tons of articles in various magazines and newspapers about the phenomenon of black educated women opting to just stay single. Gaia i think you're alluding to this a little bit, educated black men i think almost always get married at some point and that's not the case for black women. but there are still way more educated black women then black men. Or if you want to include all of the black populations regardless of education, there are still more 'eligible' black women than 'eligible' black men because of the amount of black men sitting in jail somewhere

So for who Black men choose, or who black women choose, im not so sure the numbers are so clear. I think the only thing that is clear is that A) Black men are failing in society at a much greater rate than black women, either by going to jail, or not going to school and B) There is a pretty big issue with black marriages - blacks aren't marrying each other.

hellokitty
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hellokitty » Wed May 19, 2010 6:07 pm

This video scared the SHIT out of me. On the plus side, I date outside of my race, which opens up all types of new possibilities, but these women are screwed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJGMAhWpDF8

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20121109
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 20121109 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:08 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote: 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3

Did the source you get this from list percentages for all races? I'm worried about my sister. :lol:

I would think it would still be fairly high though.


LOL...I'm sure a quick google search can help you out, my uncle Matlock!

But just this article gives you a hint of what I'm talking about: --LinkRemoved-- Its a little dated, but I doubt things would have deviated by a significant amount.

Quote wrote: An even more alarming statistic is the increase in the number of both Black men and women who have never been married. Nearly 45 percent of Black men have never married and 42 percent of Black women have never married. More to the point, an increasing number of Black women will never get married. The percentage of Black women who are married declined from 62 percent to 31 percent between 1950 and 2002.


What's interesting is that towards the end of the article, its starts to discuss some of the points you were raising, APNS


<3
Last edited by 20121109 on Wed May 19, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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3 Stripes
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 3 Stripes » Wed May 19, 2010 6:11 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Interesting APNS, but aren't W/AA interracial relationships more rampant with AA men/W women, than AA women/W men? That quote may address some factors, but there are definite holes.

<3


i think the numbers suggest that there would be more black women than men in interracial relationships, no? just because of the shortage of black men that are actually on the marriage market. i have no numbers to back this up though.


But culturally, its quite clear that more black men are in interracial relationships with our white counterparts than black women, right? I remember reading that approx. 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3



But, it's not like black men are getting married either, GAIA. And, believe it or not, black men are not marrying interracially in mass numbers. I think that's the media playing a jedi mind trick on us (see-Hollywood celebrities/athletes). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if more black women were in interracial marriages.

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20121109
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 20121109 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:13 pm

3 Stripes wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Interesting APNS, but aren't W/AA interracial relationships more rampant with AA men/W women, than AA women/W men? That quote may address some factors, but there are definite holes.

<3


i think the numbers suggest that there would be more black women than men in interracial relationships, no? just because of the shortage of black men that are actually on the marriage market. i have no numbers to back this up though.


But culturally, its quite clear that more black men are in interracial relationships with our white counterparts than black women, right? I remember reading that approx. 44% of black women over the age of 40 will not get married. Maybe its not that they engage in interracial relationships to compensate, maybe they just don't get married at all...

<3



But, it's not like black men are getting married either, GAIA. And, believe it or not, black men are not marrying interracially in mass numbers. I think that's the media playing a jedi mind trick on us (see-Hollywood celebrities/athletes). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if more black women were in interracial marriages.


You're right. But I never actually said that, did I? We're speculating at this point...

Oh and just to add...

Quote wrote:All of this--the ravages of the drug crisis and the AIDS crisis, the phenomenally high number of Blacks in jail, the unacceptably high rate of unemployment--has measurably and dramatically decreased the pool of marriageable Black men. So has the increase in the number of Black men--1 out of 10, according to some experts--who are marrying non-Black women. "This country is in an interracial marriage boom," Dr. Hare says. "One out of 10 Black men will marry White women; that's 10 percent of our men gone."


If these numbers are accurate, I would be hard pressed to believe that more black women are in interracial relationships than black men. Sucks to be us, ladies...

<3
Last edited by 20121109 on Wed May 19, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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oberlin08
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby oberlin08 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:14 pm

This is one of the most fascinating, yet productive non law school related conversations i've had on TLS.

And usually, if the thread involve race, it gets negative pretty quickly, but for whatever reason this one hasn't..?



Anyway, I think at this pace, the gender disparities both in education, higher education, and marriages will be an even greater problem 20 years from now. So so so sad :-(

At least the Residents at 1600 Pennsylvannia Ave right down the street from me are helping a little to change perceptions of black marriages and education.

09042014
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:33 pm

ITT DF finds he should ask out more black girls.

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20121109
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 20121109 » Wed May 19, 2010 6:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:ITT DF finds he should ask out more black girls.


I'm glad you're willing to pop that chocolate cherry...

<3

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3 Stripes
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 3 Stripes » Wed May 19, 2010 6:40 pm

Also, I've done my own research in the past half hour, regarding black male and female populations.

According to the June 2009 statistics, there are exactly, 307,006,550 people living in the US.

According to 2008 statistics, the black population constitutes 12.4% of the US population. That's 38,068812 people in total.

Assuming that the population is 50%male/50%female, this means 19,034,406 black men & 19,034,406 black women in total.

The most recent statistics, 2007, suggest that black males aged population 20-29 makes up 6.94% of the black community. This means that are 1,320,988 black males, aged 20-29. Conversely, there 1,277,209 black females, aged 20-29. Black females aged 20-29 make up 6.71% of the black community.

The Economist article, as posted by 'Slickback, says that black men aged 20-29 are in jail at the rate of 1 out of every 9. Taking away those incarcerated, there are 1,174,212 available black men. For black females, 1 out of every 150 are incarcerated, leaving 1,268,694 available black women. As we can see, this is when available black females start outnumbering available black men. We're losing brothers to jail.

According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, in 2006, the percentage of blacks with college degrees was 42%. The percentage of black women with college degrees was 46%. Using our number before, for our subset of people 20-29, we now have 583,599 black women with degrees. The remaining black female population is left behind. In the same journal, the number of black men getting their degrees was at 35%. Applying this to our subset of 20-29, we now have 410,974 black men with college degrees. And of course, the remaining black male population is left behind.

Let's compare the numbers for blacks between 20-29 (I'm using this age group in particular because of that Economist article). Black females with college degrees to those without (and not in jail): 583,599/685095. Black males with college degrees to those without (and not in jail): 410,974/763,238.

If my numbers tell us anything, it's that, yes, black men are at a serious deficit but the majority are not in prison. Also, there are plenty of potential SOs to go around. Now, of course, people have their preferences for those with advanced degrees and whatnot and that certainly comes into play. But, if my numbers are anywhere close to correct, there is something other than playing the numbers game in claiming that black men and women aren't compatible with each other because not enough brothers are available. Also, there is a good number of black females without college degrees.

My whole point is that, yes, as a population minority, we lack numbers comparable to our white counterparts in regards to education and social status. But, at the same time, black men and black women are still available, granted there are more eligible black females than black males.

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3 Stripes
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 3 Stripes » Wed May 19, 2010 7:01 pm

Sorry if my numbers from the previous post are dated but it's the most recent I could've found at the time.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Wed May 19, 2010 8:57 pm

WOW! I leave for a few hours and interracial marriage debates spur up. I don't think that interracial marriage is a contributing factor to the underperformance gap. The main issue is the abundance of single-mother households. The lost of the male figure in families has dramatically influenced the high risk behavior of youths and led to the overwhelming number of young black males in prison.

I don't think black women will be fleeing to interracial marriages. There is a lot of resistance in the community against black women dating outside of their race. A lot of black women want to marry black men and don't consider other races. The chart below is from this article: http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singl ... ace-factor




--ImageRemoved--

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newyorker88
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby newyorker88 » Wed May 19, 2010 11:26 pm

oberlin08 wrote:I think there's an issue here with the interracial marriage thing that no one has really addressed - but it's been flirted with - and that is the issue of choice in marriage, obviously at somepoint everyone has a 'choice' to one extent or another who they marry and why, and that's each individual's personal choice and right. I'm not really convinced that for interracial marriages, black men choose to marry white (or other) women anymore than black women choose to marry white (or other) men.

APimpNamedSlickBack - the numbers alone suggest that yes maybe more black women marry white (or other) men then the other way around, being that much more black women reach higher levels of education then black men. However, I dont think its THAT simple.

.


APimpNamedSlickBack's conclusion is false. Black men marry outside their race at much higher rates than black women. That's a statistical fact.

In 73 percent of black-white couples, the husband was black.
--LinkRemoved--

.7% of married Black American women and 8.4% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse. 6.6% of married Black men and 2.8% of married Black women had a White spouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracia ... ted_States

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ck3
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby ck3 » Wed May 19, 2010 11:49 pm

[quote="3 Stripes"]

In the same journal, the number of black men getting their degrees was at 35%.



I don't think that it is correct that 35% of black males obtain a college degree. R U sure about that statistic.

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Thu May 20, 2010 6:31 am

oberlin08 wrote:Military academies could work, but the problem there, is that they dont work for every child. Especially once you get into learning disability issues and such.


I can totally agree with this, discipline and the ability to see the big picture and not just the immediate benefits are tools that could really help in restructuring the way non-model minorities handle themselves and the way they see and approach education.

oberlin08 wrote:
Also, i was thinking (writing about in a thesis once upon a time) that maybe an increase in types, quantities and accessibilty of magnet schools might work too. So instead of just your regional science magnet school for the smartest students, you have like 4 or 5 magnet schools in that region focusing on a number of different things


My experience with magnet schools is a reversal of the "bussing in." All the Magnet schools that were in predominantly minority based communities were filled with much more affluent white people who would come slum it for the awesome magnet program in their brand new cars. Pushing out the children, both white (low on the socioeconomic totem poll), black and other minorities, that it was intended for and taking up the top positions in the school.



oberlin08 wrote:This is one of the most fascinating, yet productive non law school related conversations i've had on TLS.

And usually, if the thread involve race, it gets negative pretty quickly, but for whatever reason this one hasn't..?


Agreed

newyorker88 wrote:
Black men marry outside their race at much higher rates than black women. That's a statistical fact.

In 73 percent of black-white couples, the husband was black.
--LinkRemoved--

.7% of married Black American women and 8.4% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse. 6.6% of married Black men and 2.8% of married Black women had a White spouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracia ... ted_States


I thought that the early stats were a little off. I remember reading about this, where they actually looked at the interracial couples. There is a 100:87 ratio for black women to black men. After you take out the 3 Elephants when it comes to dating: jail, homosexuality, exclusively dating outside of their race, the gap grows even larger. Now, if you’re successful black women with an advanced degree and you prefer someone who at least has a bachelor’s degree, it leaves for very slim pickings. Also, when you note that black women are one of the least likely racial groups to marry outside of their race it makes complete sense why there are so many black women who aren't married and more single family homes even in the middle to upper-class socioeconomic levels for AAs.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu May 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Sorry for breaking the marriage tangent, but the thing that I always figured was a huge problem was the public school system. Schools get their funding from property taxes --> high minority districts produce lower funding --> minority kids get really really really crappy schools --> poor educational foundation leads to limited upward mobility --> ultimately end up in poor and in poor high minority districts --> repeat ad infinitum. Having that poor foundation in basic math/english skills from ages 4-18 can be irreversibly crippling. I know in OC Florida, the three perennially "F" ranked schools are all 90%+ minority schools, and it's almost the opposite for high end public schools.

09042014
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 20, 2010 5:23 pm

adh07d wrote:Sorry for breaking the marriage tangent, but the thing that I always figured was a huge problem was the public school system. Schools get their funding from property taxes --> high minority districts produce lower funding --> minority kids get really really really crappy schools --> poor educational foundation leads to limited upward mobility --> ultimately end up in poor and in poor high minority districts --> repeat ad infinitum. Having that poor foundation in basic math/english skills from ages 4-18 can be irreversibly crippling. I know in OC Florida, the three perennially "F" ranked schools are all 90%+ minority schools, and it's almost the opposite for high end public schools.


Look at the funding per student in places like Chicago, and DC. It is actually very high. DC is the higher per student, and it has terrible results.

A lack of money can be a problem, but there are much bigger forces at work.




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