Lack of URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 2:14 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:
Jay-Electronica wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:
Jay-Electronica
wrote:
I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.




trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

:?

You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.


NO, I wasn't. I just gave an answer to what I thought the OP was suggesting.

We're on the same page now :D

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 2:18 pm

Jay-Electronica wrote:
I still dont get it. Ive never seen it. When is it the case that two minorities are going up against each other (knowingly so) for the same job, and subsequently are nasty toward one another. Doesnt seem to follow to me. Where would the OP actually observe such cases and to an extent that she can extrapolate that to the entire minority population?


As someone who has lived and worked in predominantly successsful black communities, I can attest to this. Also, as someone whose lived in predominantly white comminuties, I can attest to this same mind frame being present there as well. I've worked for several large corporations, and I was in position to see the way the competitions towards minorities (particularly AAs) panned out for higher level positions. In my experience, which is the only one I can speak to, white applicants vying for the same high powered job were adversaries but they never went to the lengths to talk down and about their competition as AA's did .

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Jay-Electronica wrote:One thing I agree with is that a lot of minorities, when they make it to higher social classes tend to lambaste and disparage the lower classes because they are still there. That I do not like

Perhaps this is more in line with the OP's original thoughts.... I'm thinking.

^^ this

Jay-Electronica wrote:You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.


I never stated that it was exclusive to only minority community, what I stated is that it is a particular problem in minority communities.

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llama11
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby llama11 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:21 pm

From my particular perspective (NA), it's a cultural and institutional thing, but more emphasis on culture. My job specifically deals with NAs seeking higher ed, and I have to say, the one's that grow up on the reservation are the ones most likely to go to CC(if at all). Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that's all they can see sometimes and are not looking at a 4-year degree. If they can't see a 4-year degree, then good luck with the graduate programs. The NAs that do not grow up around the rez seem to fair much better. Many of the older generation on the rez never went to college or maybe never finished high school.

Speaking to the gender difference, working with about 200 college students, 67% are female. If I had to venture a guess, for NAs, the difference is a generational thing. Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 2:22 pm

I got you now, trialjunky. I jumped to a few conclusions, my bad boo.

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 2:31 pm

Jay-Electronica wrote:I got you now, trialjunky. I jumped to a few conclusions, my bad boo.

:wink: No prob.

llama11 wrote:From my particular perspective (NA), it's a cultural and institutional thing, but more emphasis on culture. My job specifically deals with NAs seeking higher ed, and I have to say, the one's that grow up on the reservation are the ones most likely to go to CC(if at all). Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that's all they can see sometimes and are not looking at a 4-year degree. If they can't see a 4-year degree, then good luck with the graduate programs. The NAs that do not grow up around the rez seem to fair much better. Many of the older generation on the rez never went to college or maybe never finished high school.

Speaking to the gender difference, working with about 200 college students, 67% are female. If I had to venture a guess, for NAs, the difference is a generational thing. Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


What is up with that?!? It frustrates the hell out of me. Why isn't education a manly think to do?

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Always Credited
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Always Credited » Mon May 17, 2010 2:42 pm

trialjunky wrote:
Jay-Electronica wrote:I got you now, trialjunky. I jumped to a few conclusions, my bad boo.

:wink: No prob.

llama11 wrote:From my particular perspective (NA), it's a cultural and institutional thing, but more emphasis on culture. My job specifically deals with NAs seeking higher ed, and I have to say, the one's that grow up on the reservation are the ones most likely to go to CC(if at all). Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that's all they can see sometimes and are not looking at a 4-year degree. If they can't see a 4-year degree, then good luck with the graduate programs. The NAs that do not grow up around the rez seem to fair much better. Many of the older generation on the rez never went to college or maybe never finished high school.

Speaking to the gender difference, working with about 200 college students, 67% are female. If I had to venture a guess, for NAs, the difference is a generational thing. Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


What is up with that?!? It frustrates the hell out of me. Why isn't education a manly think to do?


It is...



for white people.

DaBears
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby DaBears » Mon May 17, 2010 2:43 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ArthurEdens wrote:I suspect that it arises from a lack of parental guidance. Those of us who have pursued graduate degrees either have parents that led by example or had parents that constantly talked about the importance of such education.

If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.

I agree, but I think parents not valuing education goes back to the point I was making; when the parents (and especially the grandparents, who are often still alive and giving guidance) were young, they were typically denied access to most higher education institutions. Why value something you believe is impossible to get?

Minorities would value higher education much more if more was done to give them access to it, and to make them aware of that access. This is part of the enormous legacy of racism that this country has yet to overcome.


+1

I would also add: Poor and working-class whites also don't often highly value higher education (trust me, I've lived with them my whole life). It can be even harder for poor or working-class URMs--not only do they often have the class issues to overcome, but institutionalized racism.

The truth is, well-off minorities do tend to place a high value on education (like their well-off counterparts of other races and ethnicities).

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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby DaBears » Mon May 17, 2010 2:47 pm

trialjunky wrote:
Jay-Electronica wrote:I got you now, trialjunky. I jumped to a few conclusions, my bad boo.

:wink: No prob.

llama11 wrote:From my particular perspective (NA), it's a cultural and institutional thing, but more emphasis on culture. My job specifically deals with NAs seeking higher ed, and I have to say, the one's that grow up on the reservation are the ones most likely to go to CC(if at all). Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that's all they can see sometimes and are not looking at a 4-year degree. If they can't see a 4-year degree, then good luck with the graduate programs. The NAs that do not grow up around the rez seem to fair much better. Many of the older generation on the rez never went to college or maybe never finished high school.

Speaking to the gender difference, working with about 200 college students, 67% are female. If I had to venture a guess, for NAs, the difference is a generational thing. Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


What is up with that?!? It frustrates the hell out of me. Why isn't education a manly think to do?



I completely agree. It's frustrating as hell. Gender roles can be so twisted and illogical.
We have such a hyper-masculine culture. Sometimes it seems this ends up devaluing education as effeminate.

Favor2010
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Favor2010 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:50 pm

The gender differences concern me, as well. My grandparents have 14 grandchildren- 8 females, 6 males. All of the women have completed or will soon complete a 4 yr degree (and many of us have advanced degrees). Out of the men, the youngest is now in college (and when he finishes) he will be the first male grandchild to have a bachelor's degree.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon May 17, 2010 3:15 pm

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Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Always Credited » Mon May 17, 2010 3:18 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
trialjunky wrote:
Jay-Electronica wrote:I got you now, trialjunky. I jumped to a few conclusions, my bad boo.

:wink: No prob.

llama11 wrote:From my particular perspective (NA), it's a cultural and institutional thing, but more emphasis on culture. My job specifically deals with NAs seeking higher ed, and I have to say, the one's that grow up on the reservation are the ones most likely to go to CC(if at all). Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that's all they can see sometimes and are not looking at a 4-year degree. If they can't see a 4-year degree, then good luck with the graduate programs. The NAs that do not grow up around the rez seem to fair much better. Many of the older generation on the rez never went to college or maybe never finished high school.

Speaking to the gender difference, working with about 200 college students, 67% are female. If I had to venture a guess, for NAs, the difference is a generational thing. Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


What is up with that?!? It frustrates the hell out of me. Why isn't education a manly think to do?


i grew in a neighborhood that was poor and predominantly black. i can also attest to the pressures that these gender-specific expectations exert on young people and their pernicious effects.

thing is, as a kid, i didnt give a fuck either way.

i credit not caring what the people around the way thought about the way i talked and behaved with ultimately improving my lot in life. its really a study in culture: my dad left when i was really young, but my mother instilled in me a much less cynical outlook on the opportunities available in this country than i found in lots of the other kids i interacted with.

this has sort of led me toward a thesis that there might be too little individualism among at least blacks in this country. its an interesting situation: during the civil rights movement when blacks were openly segregated against and denied basic rights, the credited approach was collective action. it was deeply important for people to stick together to work toward a common good.

but today, it seems that the collective action approach can even have negative effects on sustained progress. this isnt to say that racism doesnt exist anymore or that this country is even a million miles close to giving kids of every race a shot at life, but at some point its important to accept that the doors are probably as wide open as they will ever be, and that its up to you on your own to kick them down and take what you want.

i dont know, just some ramblings inspired by the op. take from them what you will.


TAKE WHAT YOU CAN


GIVE NOTHING BACK

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APimpNamedSlickback
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Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon May 17, 2010 3:19 pm

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Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 3:25 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
i grew in a neighborhood that was poor and predominantly black. i can also attest to the pressures that these gender-specific expectations exert on young people and their pernicious effects.

thing is, as a kid, i didnt give a fuck either way.

i credit not caring what the people around the way thought about the way i talked and behaved with ultimately improving my lot in life. its really a study in culture: my dad left when i was really young, but my mother instilled in me a much less cynical outlook on the opportunities available in this country than i found in lots of the other kids i interacted with.

this has sort of led me toward a thesis that there might be too little individualism among at least blacks in this country. its an interesting situation: during the civil rights movement when blacks were openly segregated against and denied basic rights, the credited approach was collective action. it was deeply important for people to stick together to work toward a common good.

but today, it seems that the collective action approach can even have negative effects on sustained progress. this isnt to say that racism doesnt exist anymore or that this country is even a million miles close to giving kids of every race a shot at life, but at some point its important to accept that the doors are probably as wide open as they will ever be, and that its up to you on your own to kick them down and take what you want.

i dont know, just some ramblings inspired by the op. take from them what you will.


Agreed, I never thought of it in that manner but I can see how that would play out. In primary and secondary school, I was different from the other black girls. I wasn't fully ostracized for it, but I was made aware that my peculiarities were noted (loving to read and using "big" words). I was different; therefore, I wasn’t apart of the collective.

JayLenoSucks
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby JayLenoSucks » Mon May 17, 2010 3:29 pm

llama11 wrote:Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


Something people need to understand about the older Native generations (those that grew up in the early half of the 1900s), was that they were most likely sent (read: forced) to many of the Indian boarding schools around the country in order to "civilize" them. Of course the process of "civilizing" them was to prepare them for menial tasks such as the jobs described above. This process was also not something that was done gently, many of these children either had to get with the program or found their way to an untimely death (thus, the numerous graves of Native children at boarding schools such as Haskell). Considering we're only 70-80 years removed from these assimilation policies, the legacy still remains in regard to how many Natives view the Western education system in general.

Also, some reservation schools get the rejects who are barred from getting a job in non-reservation schools (felons, former sex abusers, etc.). So if they aren't getting encouragement at home, they definitely aren't getting it from these terrible role models who in many cases are only there because they can't get a job teaching anywhere else.

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oberlin08
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby oberlin08 » Mon May 17, 2010 3:33 pm

As a black male, I went to very prestigious schools the whole way and it seemed to me that the black males (my peers) were more effectively 'weeded out' along the way than our black female counterparts. In addition, my black female peers not only succeeeded in attaining their degrees, but they exceled, whereas more often than not, the black males had trouble simply graduating and getting their degrees.

The national ratio for black men:women attaining college degrees, is like 1:3 or in some cases 1:4. And I suspect it's the same or worse for advanced degrees.

EDIT: I mentioned the schools I personally went to so you all can have some context on my comments, though even if I went to public schools and community college I also suspect the statistics would not be that different.

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Always Credited
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Always Credited » Mon May 17, 2010 3:39 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:who said anything about "give nothing back?"

that is called building a straw man, i think.


Its just a funny quote from a movie. Relax. Even better, relax while watching more movies. Maybe you'll be happier.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 3:49 pm

oberlin08 wrote:As a black male, I went to very prestigious schools the whole way and it seemed to me that the black males (my peers) were more effectively 'weeded out' along the way than our black female counterparts. In addition, my black female peers not only succeeeded in attaining their degrees, but they exceled, whereas more often than not, the black males had trouble simply graduating and getting their degrees.

The national ratio for black men:women attaining college degrees, is like 1:3 or in some cases 1:4. And I suspect it's the same or worse for advanced degrees.

EDIT: I mentioned the schools I personally went to so you all can have some context on my comments, though even if I went to public schools and community college I also suspect the statistics would not be that different.



What's behind this weeding out? I don't understand how this happens? Black males and females are at the same starting line, what happens in between the race , that only the females reach the finish line?

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 4:00 pm

I think a lot of it has to do with the way our culture (AA's) view genders. For men, I would say a lot of the images/pressures thrown at them are they
-need to make money NOW,
-encouraged more in athletics,
-need to smash and dash every semi-cute female

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llama11
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby llama11 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:06 pm

JayLenoSucks wrote:
llama11 wrote:Older NA men are likely to be iron workers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, veterans, auto mechanics etc. I think there is a perception that 'men' do this sort of work and going to college does not fit that mold.


Something people need to understand about the older Native generations (those that grew up in the early half of the 1900s), was that they were most likely sent (read: forced) to many of the Indian boarding schools around the country in order to "civilize" them. Of course the process of "civilizing" them was to prepare them for menial tasks such as the jobs described above. This process was also not something that was done gently, many of these children either had to get with the program or found their way to an untimely death (thus, the numerous graves of Native children at boarding schools such as Haskell). Considering we're only 70-80 years removed from these assimilation policies, the legacy still remains in regard to how many Natives view the Western education system in general.

Also, some reservation schools get the rejects who are barred from getting a job in non-reservation schools (felons, former sex abusers, etc.). So if they aren't getting encouragement at home, they definitely aren't getting it from these terrible role models who in many cases are only there because they can't get a job teaching anywhere else.


Absolutely, can't believe I forgot to mention this, seeing as 3 of my grandparents went to these schools. While hard to define, I'm sure this profoundly affected the rearing styles of my grandparents which was then partially passed onto my parents. The legacy of boarding schools is certainly felt to this day.

creatinganalt
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby creatinganalt » Mon May 17, 2010 4:08 pm

I think that there is sometimes an issue with minorities being in competition when they are used to being the 'only' one in a sea of whites. That often means small compromises and I don't think people like witnesses to their uncomfortable moments. Like if someone makes a racist joke, I think that a lot of POC feel under more pressure if another POC is there because they feel then they have to respond.

Also the narrow gap of acceptable behaviour for minorities is very small and doesn't really include hanging out with other minorities. It's a wonderfully racist system in which 2 black people talking to each other are considered to be 'segregating themselves' whereas 30 white people with no black friends is 'normal'.

creatinganalt
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby creatinganalt » Mon May 17, 2010 4:12 pm

Also, a lot of black men do worse because black women, and women in general, are disciplined much more effectively in the home. I have about 6 friends who all fit the same pattern - black girls with brothers, no father. The girls are all successful and the boys are all wild. The girls were expected to keep the house going, cook, clean and help out. The boys were never made to lift a finger. Even subtler expectations about behavior are different. As a result the girls are all college educated and the boys are high school drop outs roaming the streets.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:12 pm

creatinganalt wrote:I think that there is sometimes an issue with minorities being in competition when they are used to being the 'only' one in a sea of whites. That often means small compromises and I don't think people like witnesses to their uncomfortable moments. Like if someone makes a racist joke, I think that a lot of POC feel under more pressure if another POC is there because they feel then they have to respond.

Also the narrow gap of acceptable behaviour for minorities is very small and doesn't really include hanging out with other minorities. It's a wonderfully racist system in which 2 black people talking to each other are considered to be 'segregating themselves' whereas 30 white people with no black friends is 'normal'.


I always hated when something racial was discussed or happened that my whole class would look at me because I was the only POC. :|

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jeremydc
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby jeremydc » Mon May 17, 2010 4:14 pm

Sorry but are Hawaiians considered URMs?

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:15 pm

creatinganalt wrote:Also, a lot of black men do worse because black women, and women in general, are disciplined much more effectively in the home. I have about 6 friends who all fit the same pattern - black girls with brothers, no father. The girls are all successful and the boys are all wild. The girls were expected to keep the house going, cook, clean and help out. The boys were never made to lift a finger. Even subtler expectations about behavior are different. As a result the girls are all college educated and the boys are high school drop outs roaming the streets.



I don't think the fully explains the phenomena. Something psychological is going that has nothing to do with the family unit. Because black males are dropping out or not finishing college from many different kinds of family units.

creatinganalt
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby creatinganalt » Mon May 17, 2010 4:17 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:
creatinganalt wrote:Also, a lot of black men do worse because black women, and women in general, are disciplined much more effectively in the home. I have about 6 friends who all fit the same pattern - black girls with brothers, no father. The girls are all successful and the boys are all wild. The girls were expected to keep the house going, cook, clean and help out. The boys were never made to lift a finger. Even subtler expectations about behavior are different. As a result the girls are all college educated and the boys are high school drop outs roaming the streets.



I don't think the fully explains the phenomena. Something psychological is going that has nothing to do with the family unit. Because black males are dropping out or not finishing college from many different kinds of family units.


Sorry - I agree with you that it can't be the whole story. It's probably a combination of a lot of things. But I do think that black men are subject to different expectations even within the black community.




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