Lack of URMs Forum
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Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about bar exam prep. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
- trialjunky
- Posts: 908
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:41 am
Lack of URMs
Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
Speak on it
- vanwinkle
- Posts: 8953
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am
Re: Lack of URMs
I would suggest it's the result of a historical education disadvantage due to persistent denial of higher education, coupled with a lack of effective affirmative action to compensate for that imbalance, leading to a cultural assumption among minorities that access to higher education remains unavailable.trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees?
In short, too many minorities give up because they've gotten used to "no" and haven't been given enough reason to believe they'll hear anything else.
- ArthurEdens
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:53 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I suspect that it arises from a lack of parental guidance. Those of us who have pursued graduate degrees either have parents that led by example or had parents that constantly talked about the importance of such education.
If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.
If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.
- oberlin08
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:37 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I think its both lack of parental guidance, and lack of opportunity.
Anyone want to speak on the imbalance in gender amongst URMs?
I know that for blacks, far far far far more women go on to receive advanced degrees then black men.
Anyone want to speak on the imbalance in gender amongst URMs?
I know that for blacks, far far far far more women go on to receive advanced degrees then black men.
- vanwinkle
- Posts: 8953
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am
Re: Lack of URMs
I agree, but I think parents not valuing education goes back to the point I was making; when the parents (and especially the grandparents, who are often still alive and giving guidance) were young, they were typically denied access to most higher education institutions. Why value something you believe is impossible to get?ArthurEdens wrote:I suspect that it arises from a lack of parental guidance. Those of us who have pursued graduate degrees either have parents that led by example or had parents that constantly talked about the importance of such education.
If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.
Minorities would value higher education much more if more was done to give them access to it, and to make them aware of that access. This is part of the enormous legacy of racism that this country has yet to overcome.
- Jay-Electronica
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:39 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
What I hate is, people who continue to look at things this way without taking a look at the facts, it perpetuates negative stereotypes. If we look at the facts there are more URM's (specifically African Americans) graduating from high school and college and so on more so than any other time in this nations history, but no one wants to look at that.
And @ URM's being nasty to each other, wth are you talking about?
And @ URM's being nasty to each other, wth are you talking about?
- Doritos
- Posts: 1214
- Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:24 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I believe the answer is a combination of vanwinkle and arthur's replies. I know for sure in the AA community education is not pushed for enough. Too many lower income AA's think the way to move up and out of the hood is by playing ball, rapping, or hustling something illegal. It doesn't help that by and large they get access to worse schools and there is not much of a legacy of higher education for them to follow (due to previous discrimination). So it's cultural and institutional. The institutional part is changing due to Affirm Act but the biggest challenge is the cultural part of it. By more URMs getting degrees hopefully they will instill the value of education in their children and we will see more URMs get educated. It will take time though...
- Mr. Matlock
- Posts: 1356
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:36 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
Is this a question of TLS folks in general, or a URM battle of one-upsmanship that I am unaware of??trialjunky wrote: Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
- trialjunky
- Posts: 908
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:41 am
Re: Lack of URMs
oberlin08 wrote:I think its both lack of parental guidance, and lack of opportunity.
Anyone want to speak on the imbalance in gender amongst URMs?
I know that for blacks, far far far far more women go on to receive advanced degrees then black men.
I absolutely agree! I feel like they're is some breakdown happening where black men aren't reaching their full potential. I wouldn't even say for advanced degrees but schooling itself. In highschool, all the other aa kids in my advanced classes were women, there was only 1 black man (and it was a honors course -not AP). It has to be something more then just parental guidance because my partents raised my brothers and I with the same beliefs; yet, I am the only one to complete college.
- hiromoto45
- Posts: 690
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:05 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
- trialjunky
- Posts: 908
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:41 am
Re: Lack of URMs
You can def. chime in. I just find that, in my race, the few who make it to the top absolutely hate eachother and do the opposite of help each other out. We're much harder on eachother than we are on other people.Mr. Matlock wrote:Is this a question of TLS folks in general, or a URM battle of one-upsmanship that I am unaware of??trialjunky wrote: Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
- trialjunky
- Posts: 908
- Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:41 am
Re: Lack of URMs
hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
This!
- Doritos
- Posts: 1214
- Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:24 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
- Janus
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:59 am
Re: Lack of URMs
Doritos wrote:I believe the answer is a combination of vanwinkle and arthur's replies. I know for sure in the AA community education is not pushed for enough. Too many lower income AA's think the way to move up and out of the hood is by playing ball, rapping, or hustling something illegal. It doesn't help that by and large they get access to worse schools and there is not much of a legacy of higher education for them to follow (due to previous discrimination). So it's cultural and institutional. The institutional part is changing due to Affirm Act but the biggest challenge is the cultural part of it. By more URMs getting degrees hopefully they will instill the value of education in their children and we will see more URMs get educated. It will take time though...
I agree with this. I'm not a URM, but I think it's easy to see (as an observer and not a member) that there is a counter-culture (or sub-culture - I'm not sure what would be an appropriate term) particularly within the AA community. I read a really great article (or I thought it was at the time) by a black (not sure if he was African or not) American regarding this issue a few years ago.
- Mr. Matlock
- Posts: 1356
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:36 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
So if it were a caucasian you were up against for the job, your hate for that person wouldn't be as great as it would be if the person had the same color skin as you. Correct??trialjunky wrote:hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
This!
If yes, very interesting.
- Jay-Electronica
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:39 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I still dont get it. Ive never seen it. When is it the case that two minorities are going up against each other (knowingly so) for the same job, and subsequently are nasty toward one another. Doesnt seem to follow to me. Where would the OP actually observe such cases and to an extent that she can extrapolate that to the entire minority population?hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
And anyone who blames it on some perceived "destructive black culture" is woefully misinformed.
One thing I agree with is that a lot of minorities, when they make it to higher social classes tend to lambaste and disparage the lower classes because they are still there. That I do not like
Last edited by Jay-Electronica on Mon May 17, 2010 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- hiromoto45
- Posts: 690
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:05 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.Doritos wrote:I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
- Mr. Matlock
- Posts: 1356
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:36 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
Perhaps this is more in line with the OP's original thoughts.... I'm thinking.Jay-Electronica wrote:One thing I agree with is that a lot of minorities, when they make it to higher social classes tend to lambaste and disparage the lower classes because they are still there. That I do not like
- Jay-Electronica
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:39 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.hiromoto45 wrote:Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.Doritos wrote:I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
- DavidYurman85
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:55 am
Re: Lack of URMs
I don't think it's a "minority thing". People are generally competive, regardless of race, when it come to employment, education, promotions and that sort of thing. I mean I've definitely heard the "crabs in a barrel" argument, but I haven't really seen a lot of it in the advanced education/corp world. I mean I even look at how supportive many of the people are in the URM thread or even minority themed organizations that worked to keep people informed.trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
As far as advanced degrees, I think it's the usual suspects.
- hiromoto45
- Posts: 690
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:05 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
Jay-Electronica wrote:I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.
trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
- Jay-Electronica
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:39 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
hiromoto45 wrote:Jay-Electronica wrote:I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.
trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.
- vanwinkle
- Posts: 8953
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am
Re: Lack of URMs
I think trialjunky was just asking for an explanation of it, not making any substantive claims about it. Saying it's not exclusive to the minority community but a subset of normal human behavior would be an appropriate answer to give, but it doesn't contradict anything said, it's just a possible answer to the given question.Jay-Electronica wrote:You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.
-
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:14 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
As an International URM, I think that the fact that AA were denied for so many years (and to some degree still today) the same access to education (including primary) as their counterparts explain much of how the AA culture thinks about higher education. In my country, which has a very high black population, and higher education is pretty much free, we DO NOT have a gap of education achievement between whites, blacks, and other groups.hiromoto45 wrote:Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.Doritos wrote:I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.
People dont realize that it takes many generations for things to really change withing a culture, like another poster said, many AA still have grandparents that were not allowed to go to college, so what kind of legacy (teaching) about the value of a college degree can they give?
- hiromoto45
- Posts: 690
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:05 pm
Re: Lack of URMs
NO, I wasn't. I just gave an answer to what I thought the OP was suggesting.Jay-Electronica wrote:hiromoto45 wrote:Jay-Electronica wrote:I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.
trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.
Speak on it
You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.