Lack of URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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trialjunky
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Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 1:25 pm

Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

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vanwinkle
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Mon May 17, 2010 1:29 pm

trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees?

I would suggest it's the result of a historical education disadvantage due to persistent denial of higher education, coupled with a lack of effective affirmative action to compensate for that imbalance, leading to a cultural assumption among minorities that access to higher education remains unavailable.

In short, too many minorities give up because they've gotten used to "no" and haven't been given enough reason to believe they'll hear anything else.

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ArthurEdens
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby ArthurEdens » Mon May 17, 2010 1:35 pm

I suspect that it arises from a lack of parental guidance. Those of us who have pursued graduate degrees either have parents that led by example or had parents that constantly talked about the importance of such education.

If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.

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oberlin08
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby oberlin08 » Mon May 17, 2010 1:37 pm

I think its both lack of parental guidance, and lack of opportunity.

Anyone want to speak on the imbalance in gender amongst URMs?

I know that for blacks, far far far far more women go on to receive advanced degrees then black men.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Mon May 17, 2010 1:40 pm

ArthurEdens wrote:I suspect that it arises from a lack of parental guidance. Those of us who have pursued graduate degrees either have parents that led by example or had parents that constantly talked about the importance of such education.

If education is not valued (which it often isn't - I can back this up if anyone is offended), or if there is no time/money to instill this value (e.g. single parent working two jobs), then of course you're going to see a disparity.

I agree, but I think parents not valuing education goes back to the point I was making; when the parents (and especially the grandparents, who are often still alive and giving guidance) were young, they were typically denied access to most higher education institutions. Why value something you believe is impossible to get?

Minorities would value higher education much more if more was done to give them access to it, and to make them aware of that access. This is part of the enormous legacy of racism that this country has yet to overcome.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 1:42 pm

What I hate is, people who continue to look at things this way without taking a look at the facts, it perpetuates negative stereotypes. If we look at the facts there are more URM's (specifically African Americans) graduating from high school and college and so on more so than any other time in this nations history, but no one wants to look at that.

And :roll: @ URM's being nasty to each other, wth are you talking about?

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Doritos
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Doritos » Mon May 17, 2010 1:43 pm

I believe the answer is a combination of vanwinkle and arthur's replies. I know for sure in the AA community education is not pushed for enough. Too many lower income AA's think the way to move up and out of the hood is by playing ball, rapping, or hustling something illegal. It doesn't help that by and large they get access to worse schools and there is not much of a legacy of higher education for them to follow (due to previous discrimination). So it's cultural and institutional. The institutional part is changing due to Affirm Act but the biggest challenge is the cultural part of it. By more URMs getting degrees hopefully they will instill the value of education in their children and we will see more URMs get educated. It will take time though...

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon May 17, 2010 1:44 pm

trialjunky wrote: Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

Is this a question of TLS folks in general, or a URM battle of one-upsmanship that I am unaware of??

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 1:44 pm

oberlin08 wrote:I think its both lack of parental guidance, and lack of opportunity.

Anyone want to speak on the imbalance in gender amongst URMs?

I know that for blacks, far far far far more women go on to receive advanced degrees then black men.



I absolutely agree! I feel like they're is some breakdown happening where black men aren't reaching their full potential. I wouldn't even say for advanced degrees but schooling itself. In highschool, all the other aa kids in my advanced classes were women, there was only 1 black man (and it was a honors course -not AP). It has to be something more then just parental guidance because my partents raised my brothers and I with the same beliefs; yet, I am the only one to complete college.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 1:45 pm

I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 1:46 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
trialjunky wrote: Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

Is this a question of TLS folks in general, or a URM battle of one-upsmanship that I am unaware of??


You can def. chime in. I just find that, in my race, the few who make it to the top absolutely hate eachother and do the opposite of help each other out. We're much harder on eachother than we are on other people.

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trialjunky
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby trialjunky » Mon May 17, 2010 1:46 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.



This!

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Doritos
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Doritos » Mon May 17, 2010 1:49 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.


I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)

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Janus
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Janus » Mon May 17, 2010 1:51 pm

Doritos wrote:I believe the answer is a combination of vanwinkle and arthur's replies. I know for sure in the AA community education is not pushed for enough. Too many lower income AA's think the way to move up and out of the hood is by playing ball, rapping, or hustling something illegal. It doesn't help that by and large they get access to worse schools and there is not much of a legacy of higher education for them to follow (due to previous discrimination). So it's cultural and institutional. The institutional part is changing due to Affirm Act but the biggest challenge is the cultural part of it. By more URMs getting degrees hopefully they will instill the value of education in their children and we will see more URMs get educated. It will take time though...



I agree with this. I'm not a URM, but I think it's easy to see (as an observer and not a member) that there is a counter-culture (or sub-culture - I'm not sure what would be an appropriate term) particularly within the AA community. I read a really great article (or I thought it was at the time) by a black (not sure if he was African or not) American regarding this issue a few years ago.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon May 17, 2010 1:52 pm

trialjunky wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.



This!

So if it were a caucasian you were up against for the job, your hate for that person wouldn't be as great as it would be if the person had the same color skin as you. Correct??

If yes, very interesting.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 1:52 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.


I still dont get it. Ive never seen it. When is it the case that two minorities are going up against each other (knowingly so) for the same job, and subsequently are nasty toward one another. Doesnt seem to follow to me. Where would the OP actually observe such cases and to an extent that she can extrapolate that to the entire minority population?

And anyone who blames it on some perceived "destructive black culture" is woefully misinformed.

One thing I agree with is that a lot of minorities, when they make it to higher social classes tend to lambaste and disparage the lower classes because they are still there. That I do not like
Last edited by Jay-Electronica on Mon May 17, 2010 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 1:52 pm

Doritos wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.


I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)


Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon May 17, 2010 1:55 pm

Jay-Electronica wrote:One thing I agree with is that a lot of minorities, when they make it to higher social classes tend to lambaste and disparage the lower classes because they are still there. That I do not like

Perhaps this is more in line with the OP's original thoughts.... I'm thinking.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 1:57 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:
Doritos wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.


I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)


Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.

I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.

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DavidYurman85
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby DavidYurman85 » Mon May 17, 2010 1:58 pm

trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it


I don't think it's a "minority thing". People are generally competive, regardless of race, when it come to employment, education, promotions and that sort of thing. I mean I've definitely heard the "crabs in a barrel" argument, but I haven't really seen a lot of it in the advanced education/corp world. I mean I even look at how supportive many of the people are in the URM thread or even minority themed organizations that worked to keep people informed.

As far as advanced degrees, I think it's the usual suspects.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:00 pm

Jay-Electronica
wrote:
I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.




trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby Jay-Electronica » Mon May 17, 2010 2:01 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:
Jay-Electronica
wrote:
I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.




trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

:?

You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Mon May 17, 2010 2:06 pm

Jay-Electronica wrote:You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.

I think trialjunky was just asking for an explanation of it, not making any substantive claims about it. Saying it's not exclusive to the minority community but a subset of normal human behavior would be an appropriate answer to give, but it doesn't contradict anything said, it's just a possible answer to the given question.

cr073137
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby cr073137 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:07 pm

hiromoto45 wrote:
Doritos wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:I think the OP might be hitting at situations when a minority is up against another minority for a job or position and you know the company will only take one of you. Instead of wanting your fellow minority to do well, they see each other as enemies.


I think that's a completely natural response. Of course you two are "enemies" and you don't want the other person to do well. If two white candidates were up for one position they would view the other as competition and want the other one to crash and burn I would think (unless of course you are so altruistic that you hope you get passed over for the job...)


Yes this is true but in many companies they designate minorities for "diversity" spots. In your example, those candidates have more opportunities open to them than minorities. This perception maybe be completely inaccurate but it exacerbates the mentality the OP is describing.


As an International URM, I think that the fact that AA were denied for so many years (and to some degree still today) the same access to education (including primary) as their counterparts explain much of how the AA culture thinks about higher education. In my country, which has a very high black population, and higher education is pretty much free, we DO NOT have a gap of education achievement between whites, blacks, and other groups.

People dont realize that it takes many generations for things to really change withing a culture, like another poster said, many AA still have grandparents that were not allowed to go to college, so what kind of legacy (teaching) about the value of a college degree can they give?

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hiromoto45
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Re: Lack of URMs

Postby hiromoto45 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:09 pm

Jay-Electronica wrote:
hiromoto45 wrote:
Jay-Electronica
wrote:
I would like to see some evidence of this so called mentality.




trialjunky wrote:Why are there so few of us applying for advanced degrees? Also, why are so many of us nasty to each other to one-up the other person? I don’t understand it, but it happens.

Speak on it

:?

You two were speaking like it was a fact or it was exclusive to the minority community, when it is anything but that. If there is some hardcore evidence to substantiate these claims then I would like to see them.


NO, I wasn't. I just gave an answer to what I thought the OP was suggesting.




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