URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Tue May 04, 2010 8:13 am

yabbadabbado wrote:JG,

While what you are saying makes sense, it is a basically a hypothetical mental exercise. As someone who went to an "off the beaten path" law school for a year before transferring I can tell you that minority enrollment numbers are low at many schools because few minorities apply. The URMs that were at this school, particularly AAs and Hispanics, applied because they heard the school was generous with fin aid and they offered a free application via LSAC. They all got unconditional full rides. That would not have happened at a big city/coastal school that got way more applicants.

And for schools that get a bunch of highly qualified URM applicants but have trouble getting them to attend, those schools will make scholly offers to URMs based on what %tage they think will end up attending.

Basically, there is an advantage in URM admissions and scholarships at many of these schools compared to big city/coastal schools. For URMs that don't mind attending school in the places where these schools are located (probably practicing in those places after LS as well) this strategy makes sense.


This was my thinking but I have no proof, just intuition.

But I wanted to hear (well, you know what I mean) the logic on both sides of the fence, and that's happening, so thanks to all.

creatinganalt
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby creatinganalt » Tue May 04, 2010 8:21 am

I visited a law school fair and I can tell you that as a URM the schools who struggled to recruit URMs (Cornell, Chicago) were WAY more pleased to see me than similarly ranked schools who didn't.

There is clearly a discrepancy between URM enrolment at t14 schools and it makes sense that location/prestige (not rank) pay a role.

That one particular URM is rejected doesn't prove or disprove anything.

1. Assumes that URM would want to go to a school that is not popular with URMs. Arguably, the reason it's not popular with URMs would lead them not to want to go there.

URMs can be put off schools for bad reasons as well as good. Reputation/rumours/recent racial incidents can repel a URM from a good school. Lay prestige v actual prestige is another reason.

2. Assumes that URM collectively have general preferences for particular schools. Arguably, geography and career goals are just as important for URMs as other students.

Well this is silly. URMs are spread across the country but there are certain geographical clusters and there is no reason to assume that they won't lead to some higher degree of correlation re geographical preferences.

3. Assumes that admission to ANY school with a generous financial aid package would attract an URM (see 1) regardless of the quality and nature of the school.

No it doesn't. (seriously did you take the LSAT?)

4. Assumes that URMs are being shut out of institutions that are "popular with URMs" (see 2) and must or should find an alternative place to study.

Well unless URMs have a 100% acceptance rate, some are being rejected and are available to other schools to attend.


Look - this all seems complicated until you see merit aid for what it is - a financial incentive. It is bribing students to attend who wouldn't attend otherwise. It's not a gift or a pat on the head or an award. The school just wants you to attend. If you think about it like that, then any school that a) for any reason has difficulty recruiting URMs and b) wants to increase or sustain URM enrolment has to pay up. That's just a fact.

legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Tue May 04, 2010 11:51 am

ricking1288 wrote:yo could try Maine because they only have like 2 black students, 6 asian students, and like 4 hispanic students. Check the school profile on TLS. It says it right there. The dilemma is that you would have to go to school in Maine, but there is a lot of white women and who doesn't like white women


ROFL who are you addressing or is this a general "you"? I already have my school list chosen (although there is room for tweaking as time passes)...and yes some schools with undesirable locations I was going to X off the list but if they are highly regarded/ranked I have to leave them there (pending LSAT...if I get a silly score I can cut the list in half or, retake). Because money/cost matters and location turns out to be potential career suicide when choosing a law school, two schools that showed up in my research of "outside the box" (for me) schools on the electronic ABA guide search are no longer possible considerations. Based on cost/scholarship sizes/bar passage rates, University of Toledo was far and away a big winner. Based on family housing/cost/bar passage rates (and the 360 degrees tour of their on campus housing!) Brigham Young was the next out of the box winner. Brigham Young also seemed to do well with international students, and I am actually more concerned with the level of foreign students than the level of students with skin like mine.

Then as my research went along I realized if the school is not a T-14 (in this economy, probably a higher cutoff than that), then it has to be in a location (read, state) I want to practice in after graduation and therefore live for probably the rest of my life unless I return home. There are only two states that meet that requirement 100%, including the one I currently live in, so that means go T14 or go home, literally. lol.

No matter what other search criterion I change, the one thing that is always a must is the bar passage rate being above 90%. Another thing that's a must is employment within 9 months of graduation being above 90%. And don't forget attrition. Those are my three major criteria: Bar passage rate, employment rate, attrition rate... and, for non T-14s, location. There is only one T-14 (of the ones I want to apply to) that has an attractive location...so the rest just are what they are.

I keep a close CLOSE eye on these schools' attrition rates. No sense admitting the whole United States if half of them are failing out. If more than 5% of them are failing, I have a problem with that because that more than anything else is how I know the school that chooses me has a selection process that basically guarantees if I get in, I WILL get out. If the attrition is in the double digits, the school won't be on my list unless some other really strong factor outweighs that glaring issue.

And what are the job prospects out of a Maine law school? Isn't that only for out of state students and Maine residents who want to practice IN Maine after graduation? And white women who don't like white women? Huhhhhh?

So hopefully now that people know MY criteria for selecting a school, they stop thinking my question was posed to help ME out. Lol I'm just getting URMs reading the board to think outside the box, and by encouraging people to argue on both sides of this, show them the pros and cons of this version of thinking outside the box cause my opinion lays on only one side of the fence.

Matter of fact I just got the idea for a new thread. Lol thanks.

legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Tue May 04, 2010 11:57 am

creatinganalt wrote:I visited a law school fair and I can tell you that as a URM the schools who struggled to recruit URMs (Cornell, Chicago) were WAY more pleased to see me than similarly ranked schools who didn't.

There is clearly a discrepancy between URM enrolment at t14 schools and it makes sense that location/prestige (not rank) pay a role.

That one particular URM is rejected doesn't prove or disprove anything.

1. Assumes that URM would want to go to a school that is not popular with URMs. Arguably, the reason it's not popular with URMs would lead them not to want to go there.

URMs can be put off schools for bad reasons as well as good. Reputation/rumours/recent racial incidents can repel a URM from a good school. Lay prestige v actual prestige is another reason.

2. Assumes that URM collectively have general preferences for particular schools. Arguably, geography and career goals are just as important for URMs as other students.

Well this is silly. URMs are spread across the country but there are certain geographical clusters and there is no reason to assume that they won't lead to some higher degree of correlation re geographical preferences.

3. Assumes that admission to ANY school with a generous financial aid package would attract an URM (see 1) regardless of the quality and nature of the school.

No it doesn't. (seriously did you take the LSAT?)

4. Assumes that URMs are being shut out of institutions that are "popular with URMs" (see 2) and must or should find an alternative place to study.

Well unless URMs have a 100% acceptance rate, some are being rejected and are available to other schools to attend.


Look - this all seems complicated until you see merit aid for what it is - a financial incentive. It is bribing students to attend who wouldn't attend otherwise. It's not a gift or a pat on the head or an award. The school just wants you to attend. If you think about it like that, then any school that a) for any reason has difficulty recruiting URMs and b) wants to increase or sustain URM enrolment has to pay up. That's just a fact.


My intuition serves me well again I see.

And yes, I immediately crossed UF off my list after a bitch attitude from the admissions office when I called last year to ask certain questions about what I thought was their prospective student tour schedule. Already in a hick town with nothing going on and having an attitude to a potential recruit sight unseen on top of it? f. them. Next!

yabbadabbado
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby yabbadabbado » Tue May 04, 2010 5:50 pm

legalized wrote: Another thing that's a must is employment within 9 months of graduation being above 90%.


This is meaningless because you have no idea where they came up with those numbers. Unless you are independently wealthy or come from a well off family you will have to find SOME kind of way to earn SOME money within 9 months of graduating. That number doesn't tell WHAT those people are doing or what they are being paid for it. Even with a 90% bar pass rate, you can't assume those people are actually practicing law or making any kind of decent living. I met more than a few law school graduates who could not find any paying legal work even after passing the bar.

legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Wed May 05, 2010 9:47 pm

yabbadabbado wrote:
legalized wrote: Another thing that's a must is employment within 9 months of graduation being above 90%.


This is meaningless because you have no idea where they came up with those numbers. Unless you are independently wealthy or come from a well off family you will have to find SOME kind of way to earn SOME money within 9 months of graduating. That number doesn't tell WHAT those people are doing or what they are being paid for it. Even with a 90% bar pass rate, you can't assume those people are actually practicing law or making any kind of decent living. I met more than a few law school graduates who could not find any paying legal work even after passing the bar.


It doesn't mean they are all lawyers, but it does mean a significantly higher percent of them ARE working as lawyers as compared to, say, a school with employment rates in the 50%-60% range.

It's not meaningless. It is not a factor you can consider all by itself (like you can with the attrition rate despite the various reasons for attrition). You take it in combination with everything else.

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nycmba
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby nycmba » Sat May 08, 2010 1:34 am

JG Hall wrote:
yabbadabbado wrote:JG,

While what you are saying makes sense, it is a basically a hypothetical mental exercise. As someone who went to an "off the beaten path" law school for a year before transferring I can tell you that minority enrollment numbers are low at many schools because few minorities apply. The URMs that were at this school, particularly AAs and Hispanics, applied because they heard the school was generous with fin aid and they offered a free application via LSAC. They all got unconditional full rides. That would not have happened at a big city/coastal school that got way more applicants.

And for schools that get a bunch of highly qualified URM applicants but have trouble getting them to attend, those schools will make scholly offers to URMs based on what %tage they think will end up attending.

Basically, there is an advantage in URM admissions and scholarships at many of these schools compared to big city/coastal schools. For URMs that don't mind attending school in the places where these schools are located (probably practicing in those places after LS as well) this strategy makes sense.

But aren't these going to be the same schools that have trouble attracting non-URM applicants that are, for (law school) admissions purposes, "equally" qualified, and offer a lot of scholarship money to them as well?


I have to second what yabba states. I have been accepted to UConn, a School that has hard time competing with schools in both Boston and NYC, traditional havens for URM applicants. The data on LSN will bear out what I'm saying.

I have a ridiculous package for my first year. I'm thrilled I won't have the debt associated with a larger market.

UConn's student body is mostly white and liberal. I met the Dean at his own home and he's a stand-up guy. Harvard-trained and an Obama supporter. The Admissions Director was also very welcoming and a pleasure to talk to.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sat May 08, 2010 1:56 am

JolieSaraLee wrote:I know my numbers are very low, but I applied to Vanderbilt with that mentality (of applying to a school that not a lot of URMs apply to)...and got rejected. I also applied to Cornell (which I believe way more URMs apply to) and got waitlisted. I'm pretty sure Vanderbilt needs more Latinos, so I'm kinda surprised at the outcome...


Vanderbilt is harder to get into than Cornell, HTH

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Kohinoor
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby Kohinoor » Sat May 08, 2010 2:37 am

dspit wrote:
Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

Wait, wat?

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JolieSaraLee
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JolieSaraLee » Mon May 10, 2010 1:20 pm

adh07d wrote:
JolieSaraLee wrote:I know my numbers are very low, but I applied to Vanderbilt with that mentality (of applying to a school that not a lot of URMs apply to)...and got rejected. I also applied to Cornell (which I believe way more URMs apply to) and got waitlisted. I'm pretty sure Vanderbilt needs more Latinos, so I'm kinda surprised at the outcome...


Vanderbilt is harder to get into than Cornell, HTH


Yeah, I noticed...

legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 3:10 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
dspit wrote:
Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

Wait, wat?


Uh oh. ROFL.

At Jolie...Cornell is in a crappy location that sees way too much snow way too much of the year (Ithaca in non-snow season looks beautiful to me, and I'm guessing it has great public schools since places away from urban areas tend to have better school systems if they are not totally rural...but still, the snow)...Vanderbilt is in Tennessee. I could have told you Vanderbilt is going to get WAY more URM apps than Cornell. Esp. since Cornell is ranked higher, is known to be an Ivy League school, and therefore many URMs will self-select out of schools that have a lot of clout behind their name.

So I can see why you have a better response from Cornell than from Vanderbilt even without knowing the facts. People want these realities to be "fair" and objective but they just are not because us humans are not.

SummerBrees
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby SummerBrees » Thu May 13, 2010 3:39 pm

jrobby6 wrote:To webby: Virtually every school except Howard.


I shunned Howard too, unitl I saw that their median starting salary was 135K...WTF?

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holydonkey
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby holydonkey » Thu May 13, 2010 3:41 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
dspit wrote:
Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

Wait, wat?
As a white male, I love cold weather and enjoy being isolated. My dream is to one day be set adrift on an iceberg.

Image

legalized
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 3:45 pm

holydonkey wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
dspit wrote:
Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

Wait, wat?
As a white male, I love cold weather and enjoy being isolated. My dream is to one day be set adrift on an iceberg.

Image


I tried so hard not to laugh. lol!

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bk1
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Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby bk1 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:46 pm

holydonkey wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
dspit wrote:
Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

Wait, wat?
As a white male, I love cold weather and enjoy being isolated. My dream is to one day be set adrift on an iceberg.

Image


+1




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