Hispanic URM Question

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
elm84dr
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Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:25 pm

I'm very confused, and I would like to know where people got that only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are considered URM. I know this question has been hashed out, but no one has ever provided any cold hard facts or articles. For instance, I don't understand how someone who is Dominican is not URM. As a matter of fact, Dominicans are statistically the poorest Latinos and they are not found anywhere on the application, You have Mexican, Puerto Rican, Central/South American, Spanish, and "Other Hispanic." I would assume that Dominicans would get the URM boost, although I'm not positive. I am half Puerto Rican and half Dominican. The law school applications need to be a bit more like the census. Some are and I check off Hispanic and Black, which is what race I consider myself, but the schools need to get with the times!

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Joga Bonito » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:36 pm

Dominicans would qualify too, its just that TLS has a simplisitc understanding of what Hispanic is. They don't really know what they are talking about. Don't worry. If you think law schools won't understand then check black and/or explain everything in your ps.

elm84dr
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:08 am

Joga Bonito wrote:Dominicans would qualify too, its just that TLS has a simplisitc understanding of what Hispanic is. They don't really know what they are talking about. Don't worry. If you think law schools won't understand then check black and/or explain everything in your ps.



I thought so, because it really did not make sense to me at all. There are different kinds of Latinos and I think admissions takes that into account. For instance a Chicano is much different then a Mexican who grew up in the affluent parts of Mexico and came here for school. And a Spaniard is as "diverse" as someone who is Portuguese or Albanian, which are diverse people, but in terms of being "URM", they are subgroups of "white". There is also a clear distinction between descendants of Cuban marielitas and post-Castro exiles, the latter being much more affluent.

elmagic
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elmagic » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:27 am

elm84dr wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:Dominicans would qualify too, its just that TLS has a simplisitc understanding of what Hispanic is. They don't really know what they are talking about. Don't worry. If you think law schools won't understand then check black and/or explain everything in your ps.



I thought so, because it really did not make sense to me at all. There are different kinds of Latinos and I think admissions takes that into account. For instance a Chicano is much different then a Mexican who grew up in the affluent parts of Mexico and came here for school. And a Spaniard is as "diverse" as someone who is Portuguese or Albanian, which are diverse people, but in terms of being "URM", they are subgroups of "white". There is also a clear distinction between descendants of Cuban marielitas and post-Castro exiles, the latter being much more affluent.


I think you are misunderstanding what URM means here. URM are underrepresented minorities in law schools and the legal field specifically. Using your example of Dominicans, yes they may be the poorest Latinos, but their numbers aren't significantly disproportionate to their representation in law schools. Mexican-Americans account for nearly 13% of the US population that's about 30 million people, yet their representation in law schools comes nowhere near that percentage.

Basically it comes down to whether or not there is a significant difference between a population's total numbers and their representation in law schools. That is why you usually see Puerto Rican, Mexican-American, Native American, Black, as the traditional URM categories.

Here are some "hard numbers" if you want to look at them:
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/salt/
Also Grutter v. Bollinger has a lot of useful information and is readily available.

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newyorker88
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby newyorker88 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:31 am

elm84dr wrote: I know this question has been hashed out, but no one has ever provided any cold hard facts or articles.


That's not true. People have cited the supreme court case grutter v bolinger

For instance, I don't understand how someone who is Dominican is not URM. As a matter of fact, Dominicans are statistically the poorest Latinos and they are not found anywhere on the application,


What does being poor have to do with anything? The term is Underrepresented minority not poor minority.

Flanker1067
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Flanker1067 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:37 am

newyorker88 wrote:
elm84dr wrote: I know this question has been hashed out, but no one has ever provided any cold hard facts or articles.


That's not true. People have cited the supreme court case grutter v bolinger

For instance, I don't understand how someone who is Dominican is not URM. As a matter of fact, Dominicans are statistically the poorest Latinos and they are not found anywhere on the application,


What does being poor have to do with anything? The term is Underrepresented minority not poor minority.


+1

If you are poor, that is a whole different consideration from URM. If you are white, but have had a hard time because you are poor, then schools will likely consider that. Also, if you are a minority, but are rich and have all the opportunities others have had, then they will consider that too. Your thinking about Dominicans isn't relevant to admissions.(not saying they won't consider this at all, they probably will, but it may not be a real URM status)

elm84dr
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:12 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
elm84dr wrote: I know this question has been hashed out, but no one has ever provided any cold hard facts or articles.


That's not true. People have cited the supreme court case grutter v bolinger

For instance, I don't understand how someone who is Dominican is not URM. As a matter of fact, Dominicans are statistically the poorest Latinos and they are not found anywhere on the application,


What does being poor have to do with anything? The term is Underrepresented minority not poor minority.


+1

If you are poor, that is a whole different consideration from URM. If you are white, but have had a hard time because you are poor, then schools will likely consider that. Also, if you are a minority, but are rich and have all the opportunities others have had, then they will consider that too. Your thinking about Dominicans isn't relevant to admissions.(not saying they won't consider this at all, they probably will, but it may not be a real URM status)


Okay. I mention socioeconomic status because if a particular group is "poor" it has a direct correlation to law school matriculation rates. Since Dominicans are a much more recent immigration wave, the law schools have not caught up to this particular group (hence no studies done on their average LSATs, law school attendance, etc.) I am about 99% that Dominicans would fall under "underrepresented" even in the "traditional" sense. We are black people who are also Latino. I believe we need a box next to "other Latino" to identify which sub-group we belong to. As I stated, there is an astronomical difference between a Dominican from Washington Heights and a Cuban descendant of political exiles from Miami in terms of access to resources and representation in higher education.

elm84dr
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:23 pm

elmagic wrote:
elm84dr wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:Dominicans would qualify too, its just that TLS has a simplisitc understanding of what Hispanic is. They don't really know what they are talking about. Don't worry. If you think law schools won't understand then check black and/or explain everything in your ps.



I thought so, because it really did not make sense to me at all. There are different kinds of Latinos and I think admissions takes that into account. For instance a Chicano is much different then a Mexican who grew up in the affluent parts of Mexico and came here for school. And a Spaniard is as "diverse" as someone who is Portuguese or Albanian, which are diverse people, but in terms of being "URM", they are subgroups of "white". There is also a clear distinction between descendants of Cuban marielitas and post-Castro exiles, the latter being much more affluent.


I think you are misunderstanding what URM means here. URM are underrepresented minorities in law schools and the legal field specifically. Using your example of Dominicans, yes they may be the poorest Latinos, but their numbers aren't significantly disproportionate to their representation in law schools. Mexican-Americans account for nearly 13% of the US population that's about 30 million people, yet their representation in law schools comes nowhere near that percentage.

Basically it comes down to whether or not there is a significant difference between a population's total numbers and their representation in law schools. That is why you usually see Puerto Rican, Mexican-American, Native American, Black, as the traditional URM categories.

Here are some "hard numbers" if you want to look at them:
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/salt/
Also Grutter v. Bollinger has a lot of useful information and is readily available.



I want statistics on Dominicans specifically. I am just venture to say that those statistics do not exist, so for you to say "but their numbers aren't significantly disproportionate to their representation in law schools" would be false, unless of course, you provided statistics and numbers for that claim.

My point is that Latinos are not some humongous monolithic group. Each has our own immigration pattern, social ills and cultural relationship with the United States. I believe most law schools, especially the top 50 would be globally conscious enough to know about the Dominican Republic and the people ancestrally from there that call the United States home. I would assume that a rich half Puerto Rican, half white kid doesn't get more of a boost than a Dominican kid from the projects. It's important to note that no one here is an admissions counselor, so I was just looking for an article or statistics that assert this "Puerto Ricans and Mexicans are the only Latino URMs" claim.

elmagic
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elmagic » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:25 pm

Okay, look: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DT ... &-_lang=en

Dominicans make up about .4% of US population according to those figures. That's a little more than a million people. Even if a school doesn't have a single Dominican, relatively speaking, it is more or less insignificant. Either way, if you are of African descent you are better off just saying you are black.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Joga Bonito » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:45 pm

You’re Latino
Some Latino’s are URM’s (def. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, maybe Dominicans maybe not, probably Black Dominicans).
You’re Puerto Rican and Dominican.
You’re a URM.
Blacks are URM’s.
You’re Black too.
You’re a URM.
You’re a Black Latino(Puerto Rican-at least part Latino URM-and Dominican and Black-URM)
You are a URM.
Check the box; explain your background, and you'll be treated as a URM maybe even more so than just an African American.

miamiman
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby miamiman » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:48 pm

Joga Bonito wrote:You’re Latino
Some Latino’s are URM’s (def. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, maybe Dominicans maybe not, probably Black Dominicans).
You’re Puerto Rican and Dominican.
You’re a URM.
Blacks are URM’s.
You’re Black too.
You’re a URM.
You’re a Black Latino(Puerto Rican-at least part Latino URM-and Dominican and Black-URM)
You are a URM.
Check the box; explain your background, and you'll be treated as a URM maybe even more so than just an African American.


That my friend is TCR.

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Hiei
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Hiei » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:49 pm

miamiman wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:You’re Latino
Some Latino’s are URM’s (def. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, maybe Dominicans maybe not, probably Black Dominicans).
You’re Puerto Rican and Dominican.
You’re a URM.
Blacks are URM’s.
You’re Black too.
You’re a URM.
You’re a Black Latino(Puerto Rican-at least part Latino URM-and Dominican and Black-URM)
You are a URM.
Check the box; explain your background, and you'll be treated as a URM maybe even more so than just an African American.


That my friend is TCR.


That was a very good response.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Joga Bonito » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:09 pm

Hiei wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:You’re Latino
Some Latino’s are URM’s (def. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, maybe Dominicans maybe not, probably Black Dominicans).
You’re Puerto Rican and Dominican.
You’re a URM.
Blacks are URM’s.
You’re Black too.
You’re a URM.
You’re a Black Latino(Puerto Rican-at least part Latino URM-and Dominican and Black-URM)
You are a URM.
Check the box; explain your background, and you'll be treated as a URM maybe even more so than just an African American.


That my friend is TCR.


That was a very good response.


Why Thank You

elm84dr
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:59 pm

Joga Bonito wrote:
Hiei wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:You’re Latino
Some Latino’s are URM’s (def. Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, maybe Dominicans maybe not, probably Black Dominicans).
You’re Puerto Rican and Dominican.
You’re a URM.
Blacks are URM’s.
You’re Black too.
You’re a URM.
You’re a Black Latino(Puerto Rican-at least part Latino URM-and Dominican and Black-URM)
You are a URM.
Check the box; explain your background, and you'll be treated as a URM maybe even more so than just an African American.


That my friend is TCR.


That was a very good response.


Joga Bonito that looked like a logic game question, LOL. Good analysis though, and that's what I did. I was just interested in where people got their facts and figures.
Why Thank You

BenJ
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby BenJ » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:05 pm

elm84dr wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
elm84dr wrote: I know this question has been hashed out, but no one has ever provided any cold hard facts or articles.


That's not true. People have cited the supreme court case grutter v bolinger

For instance, I don't understand how someone who is Dominican is not URM. As a matter of fact, Dominicans are statistically the poorest Latinos and they are not found anywhere on the application,


What does being poor have to do with anything? The term is Underrepresented minority not poor minority.


+1

If you are poor, that is a whole different consideration from URM. If you are white, but have had a hard time because you are poor, then schools will likely consider that. Also, if you are a minority, but are rich and have all the opportunities others have had, then they will consider that too. Your thinking about Dominicans isn't relevant to admissions.(not saying they won't consider this at all, they probably will, but it may not be a real URM status)


Okay. I mention socioeconomic status because if a particular group is "poor" it has a direct correlation to law school matriculation rates. Since Dominicans are a much more recent immigration wave, the law schools have not caught up to this particular group (hence no studies done on their average LSATs, law school attendance, etc.) I am about 99% that Dominicans would fall under "underrepresented" even in the "traditional" sense. We are black people who are also Latino. I believe we need a box next to "other Latino" to identify which sub-group we belong to. As I stated, there is an astronomical difference between a Dominican from Washington Heights and a Cuban descendant of political exiles from Miami in terms of access to resources and representation in higher education.


First, most Dominicans are not Afro-Caribbean (some are, most are not). If you are, check AA and Hispanic and explain in a DS that you're black Dominican.

Yes, it's true that schools haven't "caught up" to Dominican immigration--mostly because Dominicans are still too rare in the US for serious studies to be done. (Dominicans, while the largest single ethnicity in New York County, account for maybe 1 percent of the country's population as a whole at the most, far lower than Puerto Ricans or Mexicans.) It also has to do with political clout; Puerto Ricans and Mexicans are well-established and have campaigned seriously to be given special consideration.

Is it fair? Probably not. Some groups (e.g., Hmong, Roma, etc.) get much more screwed by the ethnicity designations than Hispanics. But it's the way things work.

cr073137
Posts: 233
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby cr073137 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:10 pm

I'm an int'l student from Dom. Rep., and I have a few other Dominican friends who are applying. While I'm happy to get an URM boost, I honestly think I shouldnt. If anything, being international should have the reason why I should get a boost. I can honestly tell you, that compared to what most minorities here go through, most international students, including Dominicans, have had a really good life full of opportunities.

Also the boost should be use to counteract a perhaps lower LSAT for int'l students, which really shouldn't be used with us because that is not as good indicative of our ability to be good lawyers. Since being able to read really fast is not a "most" skill for being a lawyer. That is not to say that they shouldn't write, read, and speak english well. But we already have a test to measure that, called TOEFL, so LSAT for int'l students is dumb.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby Joga Bonito » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:15 pm

cr073137 wrote:I'm an int'l student from Dom. Rep., and I have a few other Dominican friends who are applying. While I'm happy to get an URM boost, I honestly think I shouldnt. If anything, being international should have the reason why I should get a boost. I can honestly tell you, that compared to what most minorities here go through, most international students, including Dominicans, have had a really good life full of opportunities.

Also the boost should be use to counteract a perhaps lower LSAT for int'l students, which really shouldn't be used with us because that is not as good indicative of our ability to be good lawyers. Since being able to read really fast is not a "most" skill for being a lawyer. That is not to say that they shouldn't write, read, and speak english well. But we already have a test to measure that, called TOEFL, so LSAT for int'l students is dumb.


I think most of us are talking about Dominican Americans-raised in America. Not people born and/or raised(for most of their life) in the DR and then came to the US for college.

elm84dr
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Hispanic URM Question

Postby elm84dr » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:50 pm

I do not know what Dominicans you know, but 90% of Dominicans are black and/or bi or tri-racial (African, Spaniard, Taino). Dominican international students are not a good indicator on Afro-Caribbean-ness (I know it's not a word) since they are from the extreme upper echelons of Dominican society. Since I do things with figures, here are the numbers...

"The ethnic composition of the Dominican population is 73% multiracial, 16% white, and 11% black.[1] The multiracial population is primarily a mixture of European and African, with a notable amount of Taíno ancestry as well.[23] The country's population also includes a large Haitian minority. Other ethnic groups in the country include West Asians—mostly Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians. A smaller, yet significant presence of East Asians (primarily ethnic Chinese and Japanese) can also be found throughout the population. Europeans are represented mostly by Spaniards, Germans, Italians, Portuguese, British, and French. There are also tens of thousands of people from the United States.
Racial issues

A system of racial stratification was imposed on Santo Domingo by Spain, as elsewhere in the Spanish Empire. Its effects have persisted, reaching their culmination in the Trujillo regime, as the dictator used racial persecution and nationalistic fervor against Haitians.[46][70] A U.N. envoy in October 2007 found racism against blacks in general, and Haitians in particular, to be rampant in every segment of Dominican society.[71] According to a study by the CUNY Dominican Studies Institute, about 90% of the contemporary Dominican population has West African ancestry to varying degrees.[72] However, most Dominicans do not self-identify as black, in contrast to people of West African ancestry in other countries. A variety of terms are used to represent a range of skintones, such as moreno/a (brown), canelo/a (red/brown) ["cinnamon"], indio/a (Indian), blanco/a oscuro/a (dark white), and trigueño/a (literally "wheat colored", or olive skin).[73] "




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