Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:48 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:How about reading the excerpt from Justice Rehnquist's dissent on the other page?

Simply quoting a dissenting argument is not in itself an argument. Either articulate your point or you're not making one.

ilovethelsat wrote:Also, Hispanics are still underrepresented at UCLA, Berkeley, and Stanford, but not at UT.

That would depend on how you define representation. You yourself said the Hispanic population is "15%"; the latest data I can find shows Stanford having 14% Hispanic enrollment and UT-Austin having 18% Hispanic enrollment. Both of these represent proportional representation by your own number.

Game over, play again, N/N?


First, Stanford is 9.7% Hispanic: http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchRes ... BA4704.pdf

Second, I'm not using Justice Rehnquist's dissent as an argument. I'm using it because it has statistics that support my argument.


Great job ilovethelsat! Now that you've proved Hispanics at Stanford just MIGHT be underrepresented in comparison to their contribution of the US population, you can continue giving shitty advice. OP, since you're NA, just go ahead and write that diversity statement. However, if you can find any black in you, then apply away with no diversity statement. In fact, don't even check the box, just write on your application (or attach an addendum) that you are black. Sorry, but law schools just don't give a crap about your URM status if you aren't black. It would have been better if you are/were really poor. If you don't believe me than just look at all the misleading statistics I have provided to support my cause. Actually, screw the t14. Didn't you hear that Hofstra has a median starting salary of $160k (35% reporting, but forget about that misleading stat)? You could definitely get into Hofstra even though you aren't black. Glad I could be of service. If anyone else wants some really sound advice on law school admissions just HOLLER!

millieb
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby millieb » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:49 am

Please note: This is only my own personal experience!

I'm Native American and White and checked both boxes and did not do a DS. With that being said, I have noticed no boost in my cycle at all, I've also been rejected by a couple schools where my numbers should have gotten me in, or at least waitlisted.

And yes, I have pretty damn good softs and work experience.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:49 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
cdd_04 wrote:Maybe I'm wrong here, because I only scored a 161 and am clearly not a TLS genius, but.. aren't you kind of misusing the stats from "3"? In coming to number 4, you are making the fallacy that the said hispanics and blacks are, indeed, applying to the exact same schools. Could it be the case at say, School X, that a higher scoring black (160+) is applying along with a high scoring Hispanic (160+)? Or maybe, one of the few higher scoring blacks (160+) is applying with a lower scoring hispanic (below 160)?
Don't read this and think that I am saying this applies across the board (meaning at every single law school). But, for you to say "clearly" you are implying that these situations aren't taking place. Because if they are taking place, it is not "clear" that law school are boosting black applicant up to the level of Hispanics, and then boosting them even further. Basically, I'm agreeing with vanwinkles' reasoning.


Yes, but why are blacks receiving larger boosts?

Are you a NASCAR fan, perchance?

I ask because you appear to like going around in circles over and over.

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newyorker88
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:49 am

hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby Joga Bonito » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:52 am

newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read

ilovethelsat
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby ilovethelsat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:54 am

millieb wrote:Please note: This is only my own personal experience!

I'm Native American and White and checked both boxes and did not do a DS. With that being said, I have noticed no boost in my cycle at all, I've also been rejected by a couple schools where my numbers should have gotten me in, or at least waitlisted.

And yes, I have pretty damn good softs and work experience.


You shouldn't have checked white.

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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:55 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
millieb wrote:Please note: This is only my own personal experience!

I'm Native American and White and checked both boxes and did not do a DS. With that being said, I have noticed no boost in my cycle at all, I've also been rejected by a couple schools where my numbers should have gotten me in, or at least waitlisted.

And yes, I have pretty damn good softs and work experience.


You shouldn't have checked white.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH! damnit ilovethelsat, I can't help but love you.

ilovethelsat
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby ilovethelsat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:55 am

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:
cdd_04 wrote:Maybe I'm wrong here, because I only scored a 161 and am clearly not a TLS genius, but.. aren't you kind of misusing the stats from "3"? In coming to number 4, you are making the fallacy that the said hispanics and blacks are, indeed, applying to the exact same schools. Could it be the case at say, School X, that a higher scoring black (160+) is applying along with a high scoring Hispanic (160+)? Or maybe, one of the few higher scoring blacks (160+) is applying with a lower scoring hispanic (below 160)?
Don't read this and think that I am saying this applies across the board (meaning at every single law school). But, for you to say "clearly" you are implying that these situations aren't taking place. Because if they are taking place, it is not "clear" that law school are boosting black applicant up to the level of Hispanics, and then boosting them even further. Basically, I'm agreeing with vanwinkles' reasoning.


Yes, but why are blacks receiving larger boosts?

Are you a NASCAR fan, perchance?

I ask because you appear to like going around in circles over and over.


Your argument didn't address what I was saying at all.

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newyorker88
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:57 am

Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read


I've read those numbers before and there's not much of a difference in how AAs score along gender lines. I think it's something like .2 of a point. Are you suggesting that based on that you believe there is not much of a difference in urm boost for aa males and females. wouldn't you need to look at more information like enrollment numbers before coming to a conclusion.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:58 am

Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read

Thank you, I was looking for that. From the article, 1997-1998 mean LSAT scores:

Caucasian 151.96
Hispanic 146.12
Mexican American 146.76
African American 141.80

That should help make clear why blacks may receive larger boosts, or at least, that there are clear and logical reasons for it other than some alleged and unsubstantiated claim that schools just "like blacks more".

ilovethelsat wrote:Your argument didn't address what I was saying at all.

Consider it addressed, bitch.

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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:59 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:
cdd_04 wrote:Maybe I'm wrong here, because I only scored a 161 and am clearly not a TLS genius, but.. aren't you kind of misusing the stats from "3"? In coming to number 4, you are making the fallacy that the said hispanics and blacks are, indeed, applying to the exact same schools. Could it be the case at say, School X, that a higher scoring black (160+) is applying along with a high scoring Hispanic (160+)? Or maybe, one of the few higher scoring blacks (160+) is applying with a lower scoring hispanic (below 160)?
Don't read this and think that I am saying this applies across the board (meaning at every single law school). But, for you to say "clearly" you are implying that these situations aren't taking place. Because if they are taking place, it is not "clear" that law school are boosting black applicant up to the level of Hispanics, and then boosting them even further. Basically, I'm agreeing with vanwinkles' reasoning.


Yes, but why are blacks receiving larger boosts?

Are you a NASCAR fan, perchance?

I ask because you appear to like going around in circles over and over.


Your argument didn't address what I was saying at all.


Here, I will address it. Maybe blacks aren't actually receiving larger boosts. Maybe what you are seeing is (like I'm sure someone previously mentioned) more black applicants are being accepted because more are applying. Maybe these black applicants with lower-than-Hispanic number are getting in because of factors unrelated to the LSAT. Maybe you have a black person who scored a 142 and got into Yale because he won the damn Olympics. Did you hear about the white guy that got into Yale with a 156? Can we assume it was because he got a non-URM boost, or did that Purple Heart he received come into play? Statistics can be very misleading, think about that.

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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:03 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Consider it addressed, bitch.


that is too good...I can't stop laughing

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vanwinkle
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:05 am

cdd_04 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Consider it addressed, bitch.

that is too good...I can't stop laughing

:lol:

This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

ilovethelsat
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby ilovethelsat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:08 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read

Thank you, I was looking for that. From the article, 1997-1998 mean LSAT scores:

Caucasian 151.96
Hispanic 146.12
Mexican American 146.76
African American 141.80

That should help make clear why blacks may receive larger boosts, or at least, that there are clear and logical reasons for it other than some alleged and unsubstantiated claim that schools just "like blacks more".

ilovethelsat wrote:Your argument didn't address what I was saying at all.

Consider it addressed, bitch.


Then why are Hispanics so underrepresented in top law schools? If a law school is willing to give 10-point LSAT boosts to blacks to ensure that they make up 10% of its incoming class, why is the same school only willing to give 5-point (or less) LSAT boosts to Hispanics to ensure that they make up a mere 5% of its incoming class?

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby Joga Bonito » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:10 am

newyorker88 wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read


I've read those numbers before and there's not much of a difference in how AAs score along gender lines. I think it's something like .2 of a point. Are you suggesting that based on that you believe there is not much of a difference in urm boost for aa males and females. wouldn't you need to look at more information like enrollment numbers before coming to a conclusion.


Well for the record, I've read conflicting stuff, one article said black women do better another said black men, I don't know neither was official aba or lsac articles so take that for what it's worth. I actually do think that the boost differs from school to school, some want more aa females some males, this is based more so on enrollment numbers(lsac figures) and peoples experiences that i know. So I'm not drawing a firm conclusion on that right now. The above article does include the mean lsat scores by gender and race, figure 16 so you could compare that to the other figure and then do some other math to try to figure out a few plausible hypo(one of which is probably right) concerning differences in aa admissions between aa men and women.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:11 am

ilovethelsat wrote:Then why are Hispanics so underrepresented in top law schools? If law schools are willing to give 10-point LSAT boosts to blacks to ensure that they make up 10% of an incoming class, why are they only willing to give 5-point (or less) LSAT boosts to Hispanics to ensure that they make up a mere 5% of an incoming class?

To go back to the exact same Stanford stat page you quoted... they're 9.7% total Hispanic and 9.5% African-American enrollment. How are the Hispanics more underrepresented than the blacks there?

You make a pretty good punching bag, but I have to go to bed now. We can play again tomorrow, if nobody's locked this thread by then like they should've.

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hiromoto45
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby hiromoto45 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:11 am

newyorker88 wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read


I've read those numbers before and there's not much of a difference in how AAs score along gender lines. I think it's something like .2 of a point. Are you suggesting that based on that you believe there is not much of a difference in urm boost for aa males and females. wouldn't you need to look at more information like enrollment numbers before coming to a conclusion.



AA males because there is a scarcity of them in higher education. There are more AA males in prison than in college. There is a general consensus of for every 1 AA male there is 10 or so AA females in higher education. Those probably aren't the correct numbers but they give you a picture of the problem. Another example of the problem is demonstrated at my T20 school, AA females graduate at the same rate as white counterparts at around 90% in 6 years. AA males at about 65%.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby Joga Bonito » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:12 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:hmm people are saying different things. Does anyone know for sure the gender breakdown? i.e. who generally receives more of a boost AA females or males?


--LinkRemoved--
go read

Thank you, I was looking for that. From the article, 1997-1998 mean LSAT scores:

Caucasian 151.96
Hispanic 146.12
Mexican American 146.76
African American 141.80

That should help make clear why blacks may receive larger boosts, or at least, that there are clear and logical reasons for it other than some alleged and unsubstantiated claim that schools just "like blacks more".

ilovethelsat wrote:Your argument didn't address what I was saying at all.

Consider it addressed, bitch.


Then why are Hispanics so underrepresented in top law schools? If a law school is willing to give 10-point LSAT boosts to blacks to ensure that they make up 10% of its incoming class, why is the same school only willing to give 5-point (or less) LSAT boosts to Hispanics to ensure that they make up a mere 5% of its incoming class?


Some latinos are given a substantial boost, Puerto Rican men for example, and they on average score lower than black men. Also there aren't as many Latino's applying to law school as there are African Americans.

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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:12 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
Then why are Hispanics so underrepresented in top law schools? If a law school is willing to give 10-point LSAT boosts to blacks to ensure that they make up 10% of its incoming class, why is the same school only willing to give 5-point (or less) LSAT boosts to Hispanics to ensure that they make up a mere 5% of its incoming class?


You just won't quit will you? Just because you won't accept that you have been proven wrong doesn't mean you aren't wrong. Besides, see my post at the top of this page.

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TTTennis
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Re: Checking box enough for URM boost or need matching PS?

Postby TTTennis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:15 am

Joga Bonito wrote:
Some latinos are given a substantial boost, Puerto Rican men for example, and they on average score lower than black men. Also there aren't as many Latino's applying to law school as there are African Americans.


He will forever fail to understand this concept. Or the idea of statistics and how to interpret them.




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