At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)

At what point should one seriously consider Howard?

T14 or Howard
12
13%
T20 or Howard
15
16%
T30 or Howard
28
29%
T1/T2 or Howard
41
43%
 
Total votes: 96

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:40 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.

User avatar
soullogical
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:45 am

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby soullogical » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:45 pm

I'm sending my app for Howard out sometime next week. My father was an alum for undergrad and Dental school, he did fine. I have three friends that have graduated from the Law School, two of which passed the NY bar, the other GA. All are doing very well. It may not be my first choice, but the school has good reputation in the DMV area and I wouldn't have a problem at all with going there.

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:48 pm

Oban wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


So i'd get a better education at Baylor than Texas because baylor has a higher bar passage rate?

Anyway you arent really educated at law school, ZOMG shocking! Law school is really about how much you teach yourself. You are real trained on the job.


You're going to the extreme. Yea in any school including undergraduate a lot of it is how you apply yourself but to say its all you. You teach yourself everything and the school is irrelevant is just ridiculous.

Oban
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:22 pm

What i was saying is Law school doesnt teach you to pass the bar, Bar/bri and self education does.

Howards low bar passage rate in NYC, a school outside of it's target market with a hard bar says much more about the quality of the general student pool then the schools education. Law education is pretty much the same at any school. Harvard to the bottom of the T4. Sure it might be better the higher up you go, but the material is the same.

User avatar
chadwick218
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:15 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:23 pm

TTT

User avatar
Kohinoor
Posts: 2756
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:26 pm

I suspect newyorker is flame. I'll be bowing out from this thread.

Oban
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:27 pm

I agree, i'm tired of my blantant howard trolling.

chitown825
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:45 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby chitown825 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:28 pm

I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.

Oban
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:33 pm

chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


lolwut, way to miss the point of the thread entirely.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:38 pm

chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


Like I said OP TLS is an awful place to ask this question. Go to http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prel ... ic=27865.0

You're going to get a lot of God awful responses to this question like the quote above on here. There are far too many people on here who will try to answer this question who have no idea what they are talking about (read the average non Black TLS poster who treats US News like the Gospels and knows nothing about Howard).

User avatar
reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:42 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:47 pm

chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


Are you against people attending PWIs as well?

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:49 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.


Opinion? You make no sense. I stated facts. Whether I personally take the bar or not does not change the facts I cited i.e. howard's bar passage rate.

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:54 pm

Oban wrote:What i was saying is Law school doesnt teach you to pass the bar, Bar/bri and self education does.

Howards low bar passage rate in NYC,


not to be anal but I'm not talking about NYC. New york does not automatically equal NYC. I cited the bar passage rate for New york not just one city inside the state. I hate when people from outside new york do that, it's very irritating.

User avatar
Rand M.
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:24 am

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:55 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


I should try this again. If you read my first post I didn't say that bar passage and institution quality were not linked. They are actually pretty closely associated in most instances. However, correlation does not equal causality. You failed to appreciate the fact that the best students are attracted to the 'best' schools and thus have better results on the bar exam. When you say TLS says the opposite you sound like someone who is unable to look past a list of stats and see the meaning and reasons behind them. Howard's 60% passage rate is not due to the fact that Howard has failed in any way, and there is simply no way that you can say that they have. Someone who has actually passed the bar has stepped into the thread and told you that there is little link between what you are taught in law school and your ability to pass the bar. There is nowhere on TLS where you will see someone credibly claim that bar passage is the result of institution quality.

User avatar
Rand M.
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:24 am

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:56 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.


Opinion? You make no sense. I stated facts. Whether I personally take the bar or not does not change the facts I cited i.e. howard's bar passage rate.


It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.

Oban
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:00 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


Are you against people attending PWIs as well?



When did Michael Steele start trolling on TLS?

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:03 pm

Rand M. wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


I should try this again. If you read my first post I didn't say that bar passage and institution quality were not linked. They are actually pretty closely associated in most instances. However, correlation does not equal causality. You failed to appreciate the fact that the best students are attracted to the 'best' schools and thus have better results on the bar exam. When you say TLS says the opposite you sound like someone who is unable to look past a list of stats and see the meaning and reasons behind them. Howard's 60% passage rate is not due to the fact that Howard has failed in any way, and there is simply no way that you can say that they have. Someone who has actually passed the bar has stepped into the thread and told you that there is little link between what you are taught in law school and your ability to pass the bar. There is nowhere on TLS where you will see someone credibly claim that bar passage is the result of institution quality.


I'm fully aware of that fact, better students tend to attend better schools. However, It doesn't matter how good of a student you are if you're not prepared to take the bar you won't do well. To say that a school is irrelevant is extreme and irrational. And here is the TLS link to what I stated, that bar passage rate is one of the indicators of the quality of education you recieve.


"Only 68 percent of UDC students passed the 2007 Maryland bar exam, about 15 percentage points lower than the state average. This placed UDC in last place out of eight ABA-accredited law schools in DC or Maryland. This bar-passage rate should worry prospective students, since it is one of few indicators of the quality of the law school’s education."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/district ... f-law.html

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:07 pm

Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

User avatar
OGR3
Posts: 881
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby OGR3 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:12 pm

I'm seriously considering Howard. I've already been accepted to George Mason FT and I'm awaiting a GWU PT decision. I'm not a URM.

User avatar
najumobi
Posts: 1111
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:36 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:15 pm

onetimeonly95 wrote:Curious here

there are schools where students get biglaw firms interviews at oci via lottery and not merely based on ranking requirement. i think those schools are equal if not better for blacks than howard. as with law school admissions, for biglaw hiring, it seems blacks really only compete amongst themselves. i'm not sure which schools have lottery for oci interviews but i think the majority of the top 30 schools have oci's where interviews with firms are at least partly based on lottery (i.e. WashU: 70% grade requirement, 30% lottery)

for the top 30 school grads, the median percentile for blacks working in biglaw is 18th percentile. at schools like Mich, a top 10, the median is 15th percentile. the stat for 18th percentile probably corresponds with a school like georgetown.

bottom line: for schools in the top 30 blacks can be far below median and still get biglaw.

so my list includes: t14; vandy,texas, ucla, usc, and whichever schools from 19-30 that use a lottery (at least in part) for oci. so these are the schools worth picking over howard or wouldn't be a detriment to pick over howard.
Last edited by najumobi on Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Rand M.
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:24 am

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:15 pm

Word. Go with whatever you want to believe. At the end of the day Howard grads will be jumping over many grads from schools between it and the T14. This is all of very little consequence. UDC and Howard have completely different realities, and TLS would be misguided to say that the bar passage rate for Howard should be reason to be discouraged. At the end of the day we are talking about picking it over other schools. The undeniable truth is that Howard places much better than most of the schools with 'better bar passage rates'. Placement>Bar Passage Rates. Guess that's just me.

User avatar
najumobi
Posts: 1111
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:36 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:22 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.

User avatar
Rand M.
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:24 am

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:25 pm

najumobi wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.


Right, I wasn't saying that everyone said that bar passage rates were irrelevant (that was just me :lol: ). I was saying that everyone was attempting to provide proper context to your facts. In Howard's case it is just not all that clear cut.

User avatar
newyorker88
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:33 pm

najumobi wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.


I'm not convinced its all due to the race of the students. Correlation doesn't equal causation. I'd also be curious to know if it's just New York or is the bar pssage rate for Howard's grads terrible in other states as well.




Return to “Under Represented Law Student Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest