At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)

At what point should one seriously consider Howard?

T14 or Howard
12
12%
T20 or Howard
15
15%
T30 or Howard
29
30%
T1/T2 or Howard
41
42%
 
Total votes: 97

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soullogical

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby soullogical » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:45 pm

I'm sending my app for Howard out sometime next week. My father was an alum for undergrad and Dental school, he did fine. I have three friends that have graduated from the Law School, two of which passed the NY bar, the other GA. All are doing very well. It may not be my first choice, but the school has good reputation in the DMV area and I wouldn't have a problem at all with going there.

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:48 pm

Oban wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


So i'd get a better education at Baylor than Texas because baylor has a higher bar passage rate?

Anyway you arent really educated at law school, ZOMG shocking! Law school is really about how much you teach yourself. You are real trained on the job.


You're going to the extreme. Yea in any school including undergraduate a lot of it is how you apply yourself but to say its all you. You teach yourself everything and the school is irrelevant is just ridiculous.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:22 pm

What i was saying is Law school doesnt teach you to pass the bar, Bar/bri and self education does.

Howards low bar passage rate in NYC, a school outside of it's target market with a hard bar says much more about the quality of the general student pool then the schools education. Law education is pretty much the same at any school. Harvard to the bottom of the T4. Sure it might be better the higher up you go, but the material is the same.

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chadwick218

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:23 pm

TTT

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Kohinoor

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:26 pm

I suspect newyorker is flame. I'll be bowing out from this thread.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:27 pm

I agree, i'm tired of my blantant howard trolling.

chitown825

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby chitown825 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:28 pm

I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:33 pm

chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


lolwut, way to miss the point of the thread entirely.

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reasonable_man

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:42 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:47 pm

chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


Are you against people attending PWIs as well?

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:49 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.


Opinion? You make no sense. I stated facts. Whether I personally take the bar or not does not change the facts I cited i.e. howard's bar passage rate.

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:54 pm

Oban wrote:What i was saying is Law school doesnt teach you to pass the bar, Bar/bri and self education does.

Howards low bar passage rate in NYC,


not to be anal but I'm not talking about NYC. New york does not automatically equal NYC. I cited the bar passage rate for New york not just one city inside the state. I hate when people from outside new york do that, it's very irritating.

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Rand M.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:55 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


I should try this again. If you read my first post I didn't say that bar passage and institution quality were not linked. They are actually pretty closely associated in most instances. However, correlation does not equal causality. You failed to appreciate the fact that the best students are attracted to the 'best' schools and thus have better results on the bar exam. When you say TLS says the opposite you sound like someone who is unable to look past a list of stats and see the meaning and reasons behind them. Howard's 60% passage rate is not due to the fact that Howard has failed in any way, and there is simply no way that you can say that they have. Someone who has actually passed the bar has stepped into the thread and told you that there is little link between what you are taught in law school and your ability to pass the bar. There is nowhere on TLS where you will see someone credibly claim that bar passage is the result of institution quality.

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Rand M.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:56 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..


The NY Bar is one of the hardest, that's very true. The state's average passage rate is about 80%. But even taking that into account, 60% is still horrible.


Until you pass the bar exam; you're opinion on this matter is of zero value.


Opinion? You make no sense. I stated facts. Whether I personally take the bar or not does not change the facts I cited i.e. howard's bar passage rate.


It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:00 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
chitown825 wrote:I don't think anybody should ever go to Howard, for law school or otherwise. If you say it's time for postracial America, then it's certainly time to stop funding race-based schools.


Are you against people attending PWIs as well?



When did Michael Steele start trolling on TLS?

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:03 pm

Rand M. wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


I should try this again. If you read my first post I didn't say that bar passage and institution quality were not linked. They are actually pretty closely associated in most instances. However, correlation does not equal causality. You failed to appreciate the fact that the best students are attracted to the 'best' schools and thus have better results on the bar exam. When you say TLS says the opposite you sound like someone who is unable to look past a list of stats and see the meaning and reasons behind them. Howard's 60% passage rate is not due to the fact that Howard has failed in any way, and there is simply no way that you can say that they have. Someone who has actually passed the bar has stepped into the thread and told you that there is little link between what you are taught in law school and your ability to pass the bar. There is nowhere on TLS where you will see someone credibly claim that bar passage is the result of institution quality.


I'm fully aware of that fact, better students tend to attend better schools. However, It doesn't matter how good of a student you are if you're not prepared to take the bar you won't do well. To say that a school is irrelevant is extreme and irrational. And here is the TLS link to what I stated, that bar passage rate is one of the indicators of the quality of education you recieve.


"Only 68 percent of UDC students passed the 2007 Maryland bar exam, about 15 percentage points lower than the state average. This placed UDC in last place out of eight ABA-accredited law schools in DC or Maryland. This bar-passage rate should worry prospective students, since it is one of few indicators of the quality of the law school’s education."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/district ... f-law.html

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:07 pm

Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

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OGR3

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby OGR3 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:12 pm

I'm seriously considering Howard. I've already been accepted to George Mason FT and I'm awaiting a GWU PT decision. I'm not a URM.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:15 pm

onetimeonly95 wrote:Curious here

there are schools where students get biglaw firms interviews at oci via lottery and not merely based on ranking requirement. i think those schools are equal if not better for blacks than howard. as with law school admissions, for biglaw hiring, it seems blacks really only compete amongst themselves. i'm not sure which schools have lottery for oci interviews but i think the majority of the top 30 schools have oci's where interviews with firms are at least partly based on lottery (i.e. WashU: 70% grade requirement, 30% lottery)

for the top 30 school grads, the median percentile for blacks working in biglaw is 18th percentile. at schools like Mich, a top 10, the median is 15th percentile. the stat for 18th percentile probably corresponds with a school like georgetown.

bottom line: for schools in the top 30 blacks can be far below median and still get biglaw.

so my list includes: t14; vandy,texas, ucla, usc, and whichever schools from 19-30 that use a lottery (at least in part) for oci. so these are the schools worth picking over howard or wouldn't be a detriment to pick over howard.
Last edited by najumobi on Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rand M.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:15 pm

Word. Go with whatever you want to believe. At the end of the day Howard grads will be jumping over many grads from schools between it and the T14. This is all of very little consequence. UDC and Howard have completely different realities, and TLS would be misguided to say that the bar passage rate for Howard should be reason to be discouraged. At the end of the day we are talking about picking it over other schools. The undeniable truth is that Howard places much better than most of the schools with 'better bar passage rates'. Placement>Bar Passage Rates. Guess that's just me.

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najumobi

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:22 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.

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Rand M.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:25 pm

najumobi wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.


Right, I wasn't saying that everyone said that bar passage rates were irrelevant (that was just me :lol: ). I was saying that everyone was attempting to provide proper context to your facts. In Howard's case it is just not all that clear cut.

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:33 pm

najumobi wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:It does however call into question whether you truly understand the 'facts' you are spouting. It is really clear you do not, as everyone has attempted to explain this to you.


everyone? speak for yourself. Not everyone thinks bar passage rate is irrelevant. go back and read the thread before you make such an outlandish claim

compared to all law school grads, blacks pass the bar at a much lower rate. howard's class is 75% black. so it isn't surprising that their bar passage rate is low. i don't think the school can be blamed for that.


I'm not convinced its all due to the race of the students. Correlation doesn't equal causation. I'd also be curious to know if it's just New York or is the bar pssage rate for Howard's grads terrible in other states as well.

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newyorker88

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:38 pm

Rand M. wrote: Placement>Bar Passage Rates. Guess that's just me.


How so? What jobs are you going to be doing if you can't pass the bar?

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Rand M.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:48 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote: Placement>Bar Passage Rates. Guess that's just me.


How so? What jobs are you going to be doing if you can't pass the bar?


That is true. The 40% that don't pass the bar are getting no love. But for those at the top of the class they will have access to jobs that not even schools in the mid-20s and 30s could dream of. For instance, a firm like Wachtell hires Howard grads, whereas it will be difficult even at a school like WUSTL.

This is the list of schools at which Wachtell does on campus interviews:

Columbia University Law School
Harvard Law School
Howard University School of Law
New York University School of Law
Stanford Law School
University of Chicago Law School
University of Pennsylvania Law School
Yale Law School

This sort of list, while one example, is indicative of the kind of placement that Howard enjoys. They have several times the number of firms present at OCI than do most of the schools even in T1. My only point all along has been that certain options will be available to a Howard grad and not to other grads.

Yes, if you fail the bar then you are screwed, but this is the case EVERYWHERE. And if you fail the bar after going through Howard, you would have likely failed the bar after graduating from Columbia. See where I am coming from?



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