At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)

At what point should one seriously consider Howard?

T14 or Howard
12
13%
T20 or Howard
15
16%
T30 or Howard
28
29%
T1/T2 or Howard
41
43%
 
Total votes: 96

onetimeonly95
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At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby onetimeonly95 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:32 pm

Curious here

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

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Kohinoor
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:42 pm

newyorker88 wrote:Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

To be fair, that is meaningless to the individual.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:47 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

To be fair, that is meaningless to the individual.


how so? you don't think the bar passage rate speaks to the quality of the school?

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ATOIsp07
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:57 pm

My viewpoint on Howard is this:

If you are black, go to Howard if you:
a) can't get into a T14
b) get a full scholarship (or close)
b) get into T1 (outside of T14) but are offered more money by Howard

To elaborate further, coming out of Howard within the top 1/3 of your class makes you a competitive prospect for law schools, especially because of the fact that they can fulfill their diversity/black quota, etc. Furthermore, top Vault firms specifically recruit at Howard for top candidates. If you succeed at Howard, the world can be in your hand. So if no T14, hit up Howard!

If you get a full-ride or a big scholarship, as with any decision, it becomes much more difficult. I would go because of its extensive network and alumnus base. The access to the DC market is also a bonus!

If you get into a T1 school (outside of T14), go to Howard only if you are offered more money. ITE, graduating with as little debt as possible is ideal and this must considered since Howard isn't as expensive as T1s and T2s. Furthermore, going to Howard doesn't lower your chances of scoring BigLaw. If all things are considered equal, you must then ask yourself if you want to be in the DC market.

That's my $0.02

FuturehoyaLawya
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby FuturehoyaLawya » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:58 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

To be fair, that is meaningless to the individual.


how so? you don't think the bar passage rate speaks to the quality of the school?


just because the bar passage rate is 60%, who is to say the OP will be a part of the group that doesn't pass. You should only go to Howard IF your goal is d.c.....you didn't get into any top 30-40 schools....and you got some money.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:06 pm

FuturehoyaLawya wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

To be fair, that is meaningless to the individual.


how so? you don't think the bar passage rate speaks to the quality of the school?


just because the bar passage rate is 60%, who is to say the OP will be a part of the group that doesn't pass. You should only go to Howard IF your goal is d.c.....you didn't get into any top 30-40 schools....and you got some money.


You totally missed my point. I'm not saying that because of the horrible bar passage rate that this specific indiviual won't pass the bar. My point is that the bar passage rate is considered an inidcator of the quality of the institution and thus imo would not be a school worth going to.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:08 pm

jayzon wrote:FWIW - I have three friends with BigLaw jobs. Two went to T14 schools; the other went to Howard.

And to the above, his job is not in DC.


That's very true, Howard has excellent job prospects especially considering its stats. But those bar numbers are very troubling.

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kurama20
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby kurama20 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:11 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
jayzon wrote:FWIW - I have three friends with BigLaw jobs. Two went to T14 schools; the other went to Howard.

And to the above, his job is not in DC.


That's very true, Howard has excellent job prospects especially considering its stats. But those bar numbers are very troubling.


The only reason their bar rates are so low is because a lot of the people they admit struggled on the LSAT. Still like Kohinoor and hoya said ,that is not that relevant for any one individual. OP this is an awful website to ask this question ( a lot of anti minority and anti non top school posters--plus a lot of non minorities really don't understand the dynamics of HBCUS) . Try asking it on blacklawschooldiscussion.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:12 pm

kurama20 wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
jayzon wrote:FWIW - I have three friends with BigLaw jobs. Two went to T14 schools; the other went to Howard.

And to the above, his job is not in DC.


That's very true, Howard has excellent job prospects especially considering its stats. But those bar numbers are very troubling.


The only reason their bar rates are so low is because a lot of the people they admit struggled on the LSAT. Still like Kohinoor and hoya said ,that is not that relevant for any one individual. OP this is an awful website to ask this question ( a lot of anti minority and anti non top school posters--plus a lot of non minorities really don't understand the dynamics of HBCUS) . Try asking it on blacklawschooldiscussion.


I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:13 pm

FuturehoyaLawya wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:Never, their bar passage rate for New York is abysmal, 60%.

To be fair, that is meaningless to the individual.


how so? you don't think the bar passage rate speaks to the quality of the school?


just because the bar passage rate is 60%, who is to say the OP will be a part of the group that doesn't pass. You should only go to Howard IF your goal is d.c.....you didn't get into any top 30-40 schools....and you got some money.


With money being the same (or a non-factor) and no preference in location of practice, I'd go to Cardozo over Howard in terms of overall quality. Howard's bar passage rate is kinda too screwy.

As a matter of fact, in DC, I'd go to G'town, GW and even American over Howard. But that's of course with money being a non-factor.

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kurama20
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby kurama20 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:16 pm

I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.


Honestly, not trying to be rude but anyone knows that you really shouldn't use bar passage rate when it comes to deciding on whether or not to attend Howard. Howard is a unique school with a unique niche--for those who fit that niche it is really better than any school outside of the top 14 (though Texas and Vandy may have an argument), bad bar passage or not.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:20 pm

kurama20 wrote:
I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.


Honestly, not trying to be rude but anyone knows that you really shouldn't use bar passage rate when it comes to deciding on whether or not to attend Howard. Howard is a unique school with a unique niche--for those who fit that niche it is really better than any school outside of the top 14 (though Texas and Vandy may have an argument), bad bar passage or not.


I'm gonna have to just agree to disagree with you. Bar passage rate is definitely something you should look at in chosing a school. To call it irrelevant is just irrational.

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kurama20
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby kurama20 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:21 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.


Honestly, not trying to be rude but anyone knows that you really shouldn't use bar passage rate when it comes to deciding on whether or not to attend Howard. Howard is a unique school with a unique niche--for those who fit that niche it is really better than any school outside of the top 14 (though Texas and Vandy may have an argument), bad bar passage or not.


I'm gonna have to just agree to disagree with you. Bar passage rate is definitely something you should look at in chosing a school. To call it irrelevant is just irrational.



Are you Black?

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ATOIsp07
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby ATOIsp07 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:30 pm

kurama20 wrote:
I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.


Honestly, not trying to be rude but anyone knows that you really shouldn't use bar passage rate when it comes to deciding on whether or not to attend Howard. Howard is a unique school with a unique niche--for those who fit that niche it is really better than any school outside of the top 14 (though Texas and Vandy may have an argument), bad bar passage or not.


Most of what you are saying is true. However, with money out of the question, there are plenty of schools after the T14 that I would attend before Howard, to be honest. Howard does have a best network for a certain niche and attending is a fulfilling, enriching experience in itself. But, with everything considered to say T14 or bust for blacks is rather disingenuous. especially when there are 3 better law schools in DC alone that are much higher ranked and have networks of their own. and, believe it or not, bar passage rate is important (to an extent) in choosing a school. howard needs to work on that!

however, Howard does get respect, is a fine institution and I am applying there as well. and I wouldn't be mad attending if that were to be the case.

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Rand M.
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Rand M. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:15 am

Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution. Howard tends to admit some people who did relatively poorly on the LSAT (standardized test) and are thus more likely than their counterparts at other schools to perform poorly on the Bar (standardized test). The students at Columbia tend to do better because they are the students who got into Columbia, not because Columbia is such a fine institution (although it is).

That said, I think that the main thing that Howard Law has in its favor has been largely ignored. The sheer volume of firms present at OCI makes Howard a formidable force. I believe they are something like 7th in the number of firms that come on a per capita basis. Why do the firms come? They come because there are often barriers to knowing the race of a candidate before OCI, Howard largely nullifies this uncertainty. Firms pick off the top students in the class because it is one of the most effective ways to meet their diversity goals.

I echo Karuma's suggestion to check out [url]lawschooldiscussion.org[/url] and see the Black Law Student's section. From everything I have read there (from people who really would know) Howard makes the most sense for an applicant outside of those schools with truly national appeal (I will let you decide what those are). In the end it is up to the individual, but Howard is in a unique position to offer exit opportunities that are more similar to the T14 (for black applicants) than most other schools. Its ranking, reputation and bar passage rates belie the fact that Howard does quite well for itself and its students.

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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby rookhawk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:25 am

Howard was a great concept in the days of racial segregation and lack of opportunity for black scholars. Is it so today? After all the progress that has been made, do you want to voluntarily self-segregate yourself? Lose the opportunities to network across numerous races and cultures you'd get at a T-14?

If you're contemplating T-14 you are a champion my friend. Not a black champion, a champion that knows no color. I say compete in the T-14 and take the world by the balls. It seems so much less challenging to compete for excellence against any single race or ethnicity when you have the clear option to compete and learn in schools packed with diversity.

Lastly, if there is any bastion of racism left in this country, it is certainly magnified by going to a racially monochrome institution no matter how good its history. (history earned in part under a different era where it was the only option for a talented african-american)

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Kohinoor
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:27 am

rookhawk wrote:Howard was a great concept in the days of racial segregation and lack of opportunity for black scholars. Is it so today? After all the progress that has been made, do you want to voluntarily self-segregate yourself? Lose the opportunities to network across numerous races and cultures you'd get at a T-14?

Howard has about as many non-black people as most top schools have URMs.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:19 pm

kurama20 wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
I beg to differ. Bar passage rate is a very relevant factor that individuals should consider in chosing a school. Not suggesting it's the end all be all but it is in no way irrelevant.


Honestly, not trying to be rude but anyone knows that you really shouldn't use bar passage rate when it comes to deciding on whether or not to attend Howard. Howard is a unique school with a unique niche--for those who fit that niche it is really better than any school outside of the top 14 (though Texas and Vandy may have an argument), bad bar passage or not.


I'm gonna have to just agree to disagree with you. Bar passage rate is definitely something you should look at in chosing a school. To call it irrelevant is just irrational.



Are you Black?


Yes I am, African American.

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newyorker88
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby newyorker88 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:29 pm

Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense

Oban
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:01 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote: With money being the same (or a non-factor) and no preference in location of practice, I'd go to Cardozo over Howard in terms of overall quality. Howard's bar passage rate is kinda too screwy.

As a matter of fact, in DC, I'd go to G'town, GW and even American over Howard. But that's of course with money being a non-factor.



Pre ITE, Howard placed better in NYC Biglaw than brooklyn or dozo. Just sayin.

Oban
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:02 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Rand M. wrote:Just to reference what has already been discussed here, bar passage rate is essentially useless in assessing schools. It says literally nothing about the caliber of the institution. NewYorker88, bar passage rate would only be useful in determining the quality of the student body, not the standing of the institution.


Interesting perspective. TLS says the opposite and cites bar passage rate as an indicator of the quality of the education you recieve at a law school. I'm going to go with them as more of an authority on the issue as oposed to a random person on the internet with no expertise on the issue. No offense


So i'd get a better education at Baylor than Texas because baylor has a higher bar passage rate?

Anyway you arent really educated at law school, ZOMG shocking! Law school is really about how much you teach yourself. You are real trained on the job.

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reasonable_man
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: the discussion of Bar pass rate. Passing the bar has little to do with where you attend and much more to do with how well you prepare for the test as an individual. If you take a good prep course, do what the say, study for 2 months straight, there is no reason why you can't pass the bar.

Moreover, Howard attracts an overwhelming amount of minorities. Minorities by and large, statistically, have had a harder time passing the bar exam. To fault Howard in this respect is a bit unfair. Moreover, the NY bar (along with CA), is the hardest bar exam in the country. Its not like Howard grads are out their failing the CT bar en mass..

Oban
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby Oban » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:22 pm

Or the DC/MD/VA bar for that matter.

Anyway. Sure T14 present a better oportunity than howard for URMS. URMS get biglaw well below median there. But if you can't make a t14, or MAYBE a t20(vandy, texas, ucla) etc Then Howard becomes TCR for biglaw.

I want the east coat/dc market. And if i get shut out of t14(very likely) I'll take howard for free over GWU, American, Maryland, Dozo, Fordham, etc.

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kurama20
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Re: At what point should one seriously consider Howard? (Poll)

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Oban wrote:Or the DC/MD/VA bar for that matter.

Anyway. Sure T14 present a better oportunity than howard for URMS. URMS get biglaw well below median there. But if you can't make a t14, or MAYBE a t20(vandy, texas, ucla) etc Then Howard becomes TCR for biglaw.

I want the east coat/dc market. And if i get shut out of t14(very likely) I'll take howard for free over GWU, American, Maryland, Dozo, Fordham, etc.


This is the point that I and others were making that I think new yorker overlooked. We're not saying go to Howard over Stanford, but if you can't get a top 14 or Vandy/Texas/USC/UCLA then Howard is a school that Blacks should heavily consider.

rookhawk wrote:Howard was a great concept in the days of racial segregation and lack of opportunity for black scholars. Is it so today? After all the progress that has been made, do you want to voluntarily self-segregate yourself? Lose the opportunities to network across numerous races and cultures you'd get at a T-14?

If you're contemplating T-14 you are a champion my friend. Not a black champion, a champion that knows no color. I say compete in the T-14 and take the world by the balls. It seems so much less challenging to compete for excellence against any single race or ethnicity when you have the clear option to compete and learn in schools packed with diversity.

Lastly, if there is any bastion of racism left in this country, it is certainly magnified by going to a racially monochrome institution no matter how good its history. (history earned in part under a different era where it was the only option for a talented african-american)


Yes. Like Kohinoor said Howard has as many non URM as top 14 schools have URMs. On top of that I think you are missing a large part of Howard. And to be frank, I honestly think that outside of Harvard (because of their large and very influential BLSA--see Obama and Hill Harper) a Black person's network would probably be somewhat stronger coming from Howard than from any top 14. There are just so many people who attend top 14 schools who harbor contempt and jealousy against minorities--- as evidenced by infinite threads on this board. And as much as many of them will tell you to your face they don't and that they don't view URMs differently or look down on them, they do. This is a reality you will have to face anywhere, but at Howard you will be building a network with people who do not look down upon you and understand the difficulties that come with being a Black lawyer in the corporate world. Again no one is saying to turn down NYU or Harvard for Howard, but if it comes down to Howard or American then Howard is probably the best choice.




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