Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:04 pm

SpartanGrad wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:Yea Ave Maria got sick of living in U of M's shadow (both in Ann Arbor).


Yea... MSU and Wayne are great if you plan on staying in MI. The general point of thumb that I've heard from the attorneys at my firm (among others) is that if you want to stay in state for law school and cant get into U of M, go to:

Wayne State if you wanna stay in MI
MSU if you wanna go somewhere else in the mid-west.

Wayne State is a HIGHLY respected school in MI... but falls short anywhere else. MSU is just kind of a good not great law school all around. Not as highly regarded in MI as Wayne State, but when you cross the border, it blows it out of the water. And honestly, as ridiculous as it is, a lot is owed to their incredible sport teams. You've heard of MSU in Indiana and Wisconsin because you've watched them play football, basketball, etc.

Oh... and Wayne is said to be on the verge of T100 because it has been in the 90's before.



BruceBarr - You offer a very good perspective on this "reputation" phenomena that I have been trying to get at the heart of in this thread. I agree with you 100%. If I end up staying in Michigan for the rest of my professional career, I would attend Wayne State Law with ZERO hesitation. But if I move to any state outside of Michigan, I absolutely believe that my educational credentials "on paper" would be better served by having a law degree from the University of Toledo than from Wayne State. Now look - from my perch here in Michigan and to others from Michigan, that may sound absurd. Regionally (in SE Michigan and northern Ohio), Wayne State is probably regarded as superior to Univ. of Toledo for both undergraduate and graduate studies. I know that and people in Michigan know that.

But the last thing you ever want to have happen is to spend 3-5 years earning an expensive law degree only to have your credentials questioned based on some undeserved bias because you attended a barely recognizable school. Like it or not, attending a university very few people outside your state have ever heard of (even if you earned outstanding grades there), can cause doubts to creep into the minds of some recruiters and hiring managers. Wayne State University may be every bit as academically rigorous as Michigan State University within certain degree programs, but put a Wayne State grad and a MSU grad (with the same grades) up against each other for the same job with firm in downtown San Francisco or Dallas, I can almost guarantee you the MSU grad will be viewed more favorably on paper. The Wayne State grad may overtake the MSU grad with a great interview or other positive factors, but the MSU grad will initially be regarded as having a stronger academic profile - even though we as Michiganders may know otherwise.




Oh, you are totally right. I'm currently a Wayne State undergrad and this is the biggest problem a lot of my friends at the law school face. Like so many others, when they went into law school they knew that their career prospects ended at border. But, like I said, it's no surprise to them going into it.

As far as the two schools go, I don't believe one has a better program than the other. It just depends on what you want to go in to and study. MSU has a lot of political options being a stones throw from Lansing and Wayne has plenty of options with big corporate law being in Detroit (ha... what's left of it anyway). As a Wayne State undergrad, I would rather go to MSU for law because I wouldn't want to be confined to MI for quite some time after graduating. However... if giving the chance, I would (like you) take U Toledo or another Tier 3 with more national prospects because though having that "Wayne State Law" plaque in your office is pretty impressive... being stuck inside a dying market is not.

Unless you are going for bankruptcy law. If that's the case: Welcome to Heaven.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby soullesswonder » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:06 pm

This thread is retarded. If OP wants to work outside of Michigan and can't get into U of M, he should do what everyone here on TLS would recommend and go to the T2/T3 closest to his preferred markets. All I'm hearing is a bunch of complaining that less competitive applicants should be able to have degree portability. GET OVER IT.

Pearalegal
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:07 pm

SpartanGrad wrote:Why on earth would my post raise red flags to you? Really - red flags? I am not some kind of subversive trying to undermine logical thought. Do you think there is something I am not telling you? Geez - I am just trying to get some feedback on whether or not people in Michigan think that the state has sufficient institutions to earn a reputable legal education that can help career advancement outside of the state? Perhaps in hindsight that would have been a more concise post to start with, but hey - I like to write.

Also, it is entirely possible for someone with a JD to be hired into certain field by people who may not have JD's or have graduate degrees in other fields - both in government and the private sector. How is that red flag raising, or were you just casually using the term because you wanted me to be more clear about something?


Woah, chill the hell out. I guess you don't understand the common usage of the term red flag. It means, raises concerns/warning. My concern, as I already stated in nicer terms....is that if you get a crappy JD, anyone who knows anything about law is going to be more concerned with the quality of your education and not be swayed by lay prestige.

Obviously and certainly, people hire JDs without having a JD of their own. That doesn't mean they don't know shit about legal education, and are dumb enough to be swayed by lay prestige. In fact, if they are in the practice of hiring JDs, they almost certainly have a solid knowledge of what schools (especially in the state they are hiring from) have better programs.

Also, I don't know why the term red flag produced such hysteria in you, but...

http://www.merriam-webster.com wrote:Main Entry: red flag
Function: noun
Date: 1777
1 : a warning signal

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:11 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
SpartanGrad wrote:Why on earth would my post raise red flags to you? Really - red flags? I am not some kind of subversive trying to undermine logical thought. Do you think there is something I am not telling you? Geez - I am just trying to get some feedback on whether or not people in Michigan think that the state has sufficient institutions to earn a reputable legal education that can help career advancement outside of the state? Perhaps in hindsight that would have been a more concise post to start with, but hey - I like to write.

Also, it is entirely possible for someone with a JD to be hired into certain field by people who may not have JD's or have graduate degrees in other fields - both in government and the private sector. How is that red flag raising, or were you just casually using the term because you wanted me to be more clear about something?


Woah, chill the hell out. I guess you don't understand the common usage of the term red flag. It means, raises concerns/warning. My concern, as I already stated in nicer terms....is that if you get a crappy JD, anyone who knows anything about law is going to be more concerned with the quality of your education and not be swayed by lay prestige.

Obviously and certainly, people hire JDs without having a JD of their own. That doesn't mean they don't know shit about legal education, and are dumb enough to be swayed by lay prestige. In fact, if they are in the practice of hiring JDs, they almost certainly have a solid knowledge of what schools (especially in the state they are hiring from) have better programs.

Also, I don't know why the term red flag produced such hysteria in you, but...

http://www.merriam-webster.com wrote:Main Entry: red flag
Function: noun
Date: 1777
1 : a warning signal



Ha.

SpartanGrad
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby SpartanGrad » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:15 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
SpartanGrad wrote:Why on earth would my post raise red flags to you? Really - red flags? I am not some kind of subversive trying to undermine logical thought. Do you think there is something I am not telling you? Geez - I am just trying to get some feedback on whether or not people in Michigan think that the state has sufficient institutions to earn a reputable legal education that can help career advancement outside of the state? Perhaps in hindsight that would have been a more concise post to start with, but hey - I like to write.

Also, it is entirely possible for someone with a JD to be hired into certain field by people who may not have JD's or have graduate degrees in other fields - both in government and the private sector. How is that red flag raising, or were you just casually using the term because you wanted me to be more clear about something?


Woah, chill the hell out. I guess you don't understand the common usage of the term red flag. It means, raises concerns/warning. My concern, as I already stated in nicer terms....is that if you get a crappy JD, anyone who knows anything about law is going to be more concerned with the quality of your education and not be swayed by lay prestige.

Obviously and certainly, people hire JDs without having a JD of their own. That doesn't mean they don't know shit about legal education, and are dumb enough to be swayed by lay prestige. In fact, if they are in the practice of hiring JDs, they almost certainly have a solid knowledge of what schools (especially in the state they are hiring from) have better programs.

Also, I don't know why the term red flag produced such hysteria in you, but...

http://www.merriam-webster.com wrote:Main Entry: red flag
Function: noun
Date: 1777
1 : a warning signal


Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!

Pearalegal
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:16 pm

SpartanGrad wrote:
Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!


At least I'm a loser who doesn't have to dream about making up a law school in order to get in to one.

The sexism is a nice touch though.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby soullesswonder » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:18 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
SpartanGrad wrote:
Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!


At least I'm a loser who doesn't have to dream about making up a law school in order to get in to one.

The sexism is a nice touch though.


It's probably been a while since SpartanGrad last touched a woman.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:21 pm

Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!

Yea... this is the point where you probably never want to write on this site again because nothing you say matters anymore.
Last edited by BruceBarr on Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:22 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:
SpartanGrad wrote:
Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!


At least I'm a loser who doesn't have to dream about making up a law school in order to get in to one.

The sexism is a nice touch though.


It's probably been a while since SpartanGrad last touched a woman.



+1

SpartanGrad
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby SpartanGrad » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:33 pm

BruceBarr wrote:Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!

Yea... this is the point where you probably never want to write on this site again because nothing you say matters anymore.




So does that mean all that rapport we built a few posts ago was just a waste? Awww......

Just getting warmed up you law freaks!!!!

It's amazing how a few kids screwing around after school can get adults so riled up!!! What a bunch of losers. The more you respond the more you prove it!

Out biyatches!!!

(Thanks to our college buddy Dave for coming up with some of the bigger words for us - that was sweet, Bro! BTW - WTF is shrill? That lady sure got pissed like u said!)

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samer
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby samer » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:58 pm

SpartanGrad wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!

Yea... this is the point where you probably never want to write on this site again because nothing you say matters anymore.




So does that mean all that rapport we built a few posts ago was just a waste? Awww......

Just getting warmed up you law freaks!!!!

It's amazing how a few kids screwing around after school can get adults so riled up!!! What a bunch of losers. The more you respond the more you prove it!

Out biyatches!!!

(Thanks to our college buddy Dave for coming up with some of the bigger words for us - that was sweet, Bro! BTW - WTF is shrill? That lady sure got pissed like u said!)



If there is one good thing about this whole thread, it's that the OP cements the intellectual superiority of UM students over MSU students. "If you can't get into college, go to State"

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biggamejames
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby biggamejames » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:06 pm

Fuck MSU. They had no right getting to the finals last year. Hopefully, they'll take their rightful place next to MU as sucky also-rans this year.

starstruck393
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby starstruck393 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:17 pm

samer wrote:
SpartanGrad wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:Obviously you're a loser. Next.....

Funny that a woman would use the term "hysteria" and direct it at someone else. No, YOU are funny.... and did I mention seemingly a tad "shrill" also?

Ha Ha!

Yea... this is the point where you probably never want to write on this site again because nothing you say matters anymore.




So does that mean all that rapport we built a few posts ago was just a waste? Awww......

Just getting warmed up you law freaks!!!!

It's amazing how a few kids screwing around after school can get adults so riled up!!! What a bunch of losers. The more you respond the more you prove it!

Out biyatches!!!

(Thanks to our college buddy Dave for coming up with some of the bigger words for us - that was sweet, Bro! BTW - WTF is shrill? That lady sure got pissed like u said!)



If there is one good thing about this whole thread, it's that the OP cements the intellectual superiority of UM students over MSU students. "If you can't get into college, go to State"


"If you can't go to State, shoot yourself...If you can't shoot yourself, reapply..."

Smoke Green
, Snort White, Can't Read, Can't Write

yabbadabbado
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby yabbadabbado » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:33 pm

Layperson rep doesn't really matter the way you think it matters. If the employer is big enough to have a dedicated recruiting dept filled with HR people, they are told what schools to recruit at by the senior attorneys. Now, one way layperson rep might help is if you are applying to jobs out of state and get your resume in front of the right person at small firm. Odds are still greatly against you because those small out of state firms will likely highly favor the local law schools in their area.

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biggamejames
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby biggamejames » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:37 pm

yabbadabbado wrote:Layperson rep doesn't really matter the way you think it matters. If the employer is big enough to have a dedicated recruiting dept filled with HR people, they are told what schools to recruit at by the senior attorneys. Now, one way layperson rep might help is if you are applying to jobs out of state and get your resume in front of the right person at small firm. Odds are still greatly against you because those small out of state firms will likely highly favor the local law schools in their area.

The people who do the hiring at even fair-sized law firms outside of the major markets often don't know anything other than YHS, I think.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:45 pm

Can I just say that this guy claiming to be a high school kid is such crap. Go re-read his first post and tell me he is in high school.


You're an idiot. Not a high-schooler. An idiot.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:46 pm

SpartanGrad wrote:I would like to see the state of Michigan establish 1-2 more law schools across the state. Do I think this will happen - very unlikely. With state budget concerns and also there being no justification for Michigan to start new law schools at more "recognizably named" universities just so graduates can be more marketable out-of-state, there is little justification for what I would personally and selfishly like to see take place here in Michigan. But I sincerely believe that the Central Michigan University (CMU) College of Law or Western Michigan University (WMU) College of Law would be more recognizable abroad in their first-year of existence than Wayne State University, University of Detroit Mercy or Cooley will ever be. Not to mention the fact that I think that regionally speaking, Michigan needs another law school for populations north of Lansing (CMU) and west of Ann Arbor (WMU).

I am currently looking for a part-time, evening law program in the SE Michigan region to augment my Michigan State undergrad and my MBA from UMass. Truthfully, I am considering the University of Toledo Law School over Wayne State Law because I believe that UT - although perhaps not a legal education giant or even as academically strong as Wayne State - is still a more recognizable "university" name in other parts of the United States that Wayne State is. University of Detroit Mercy (high cost, poor ROI) and Cooley Law (poor reputation, poor ROI) are not even on my radar. I would forgo earning a law degree all together on just focus on earning more professional certifications or something rather than attend either of those law programs. For the record, my goal is not to be a practicing attorney. I would simply like to earn a terminal degree for professional advancement and Executive Director opportunities in the government and law enforcement fields. Law School perceptions just seem to be weird like that. The University of Montana and the University of North Dakota Law Schools seem to have very little academic reputation to speak of, but I would attend either of them before attending Wayne State because seemingly a "University of (Fill In The State)" has a certain implied credibility, reputation and recognition that trumps better academics at lesser-known regional state colleges.

Does anyone else see what I am trying to get at here regarding the nuances and perceptions often applied (or misapplied) to law schools based the name recognition of the universities they are a part of? And as of November 2009, I believe that the state of Michigan - a large state with in excess on 10 Million residents - only has one law school (University of Michigan) that carries any weight nationally. Since the U of M Law School doesn't have an evening program, it is not an option for me - which actually at a certain level suits me fine as an MSU grad because if they did have an evening program, I would sell a part of my Green & White soul and apply.

IMO when it comes down strictly to the ROI metrics of earning a law degree for "professional advancement" and not for "practicing law", give me the law school at the "state-university party school with unearned credibility and name recognition due to athletics" over the "academic powerhouse that no one has ever heard of" any day of the week.


Yea... in high school.

ohnoyoudidn't
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby ohnoyoudidn't » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:01 pm

Yeah, OP definitely went to Michigan State and is certainly not a high school kid. I'm amazed at the hardcore self destruction of SpartanGrad. At first he was writing a weird stream of though on the needs of a law school that provides national mobility without being a school that deserves national recognition, and his response to the term "red flag" gave us a "red flag" that he was a sexist asshole.

And OP, if your still pathetically reading this thread as an unregistered guest, which you undoubtedly are, here is some solid advice:
Michigan doesn't need another law school. If you want to go to a school with national recognition shut the fuck up and work hard to get into one of the reputable schools that are already in existence. :D

Colton
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby Colton » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:06 pm

There are no jobs for the vast majority of law grads in MI and your solution is to add another law school? Seriously? Why would the state (which is absolutely broke!) pay to make MSU a public law school, there's no point.

pattymac
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby pattymac » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:59 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:Someone said that Wayne is on the cusp of breaking into top 100. Based on what info? Three years ago they dropped to Tier 4, and have since come back into tier 3. Michigan State College of Law and Wayne are both Tier 3, which means they are all tied for #101.

And it certainly can't be based on their lackluster Law Review rank.

The Michigan State Law Review is the 59th most cited flagship journal in the nation. Wayne's is 153rd. Cooley is 186. Look it up. http://lawlib.wlu.edu/LJ/index.aspx (check the "general" box to limit search to flagship journals, then click the "jnls" box in 2008 to limit the search to journal rankings in 2008, then search.)

In fact, if you search for ALL journals, which includes secondary journals plus law reviews, MSU is the 76th most cited journal in the country. Wayne is 351, Cooley is 562.

It’s a simple fact that academia views MSU's law review as more authoritative than Wayne's by a large margin, and in fact our law review is cited more often that some Tier 2 schools' law reviews, and several journals from Harvard and Yale. That speaks to the quality of the academics.

If anything, MSU is under-ranked.

[strike]Did the OP even know that MSU had a Law School?[/strike] (edited: Oh yeah, I forgot we don't have an evening program anymore.)

More to the point, Michigan has enough law schools already.



Hmm thats incredibly interesting because because when I toured WSU they were surprised I showed any interest in the law review...it seemed to me that nobody there was interested in and i got the impression that i could pretty much walk onto the the review...

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:12 pm

Colton wrote:There are no jobs for the vast majority of law grads in MI and your solution is to add another law school? Seriously? Why would the state (which is absolutely broke!) pay to make MSU a public law school, there's no point.



Uhhh... MSU is a public law school?

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samer
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby samer » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:16 pm

BruceBarr wrote:
Colton wrote:There are no jobs for the vast majority of law grads in MI and your solution is to add another law school? Seriously? Why would the state (which is absolutely broke!) pay to make MSU a public law school, there's no point.



Uhhh... MSU is a public law school?


It's kind of a weird case. It gets no state or university funding and is considered private. It is financially independent of the university, I guess it just wants to play off MSU's name since it's more prestigious-sounding that Detroit College of Law. I actually have a question for people out there. The University of Illinois also receives no state funding but is considered a public school. Why?

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BruceBarr
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby BruceBarr » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:22 pm

samer wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:
Colton wrote:There are no jobs for the vast majority of law grads in MI and your solution is to add another law school? Seriously? Why would the state (which is absolutely broke!) pay to make MSU a public law school, there's no point.



Uhhh... MSU is a public law school?


It's kind of a weird case. It gets no state or university funding and is considered private. It is financially independent of the university, I guess it just wants to play off MSU's name since it's more prestigious-sounding that Detroit College of Law. I actually have a question for people out there. The University of Illinois also receives no state funding but is considered a public school. Why?


Oh that's right... Detroit College of Law became MSU. Yea, I remember hearing about this a while back, how they stayed private and all. Thanks for the totally useless MSU info... Go greee, go whiiiiughhhh... fuck it.

Colton
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby Colton » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:28 pm

Illinois has in-state (31k) and out-of-state (38k) tuition so I think it is funded by the state. But yeah, MSU-Law is private.

Renzo
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Re: Does The State of Michigan Need Another Law School Option?

Postby Renzo » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:36 pm

People actually read that whole post :shock:




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