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Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:53 pm
by fortissimo
cjanis wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Romothesavior is pretty much on the ball.
The rep: it's full of Mormons.

I don't think non-Mormons think about the school on an academic level.


Again, I don't think you and Romothesavior are completely wrong, but as someone who has BYU on my resume I have never perceived any bias against me. The BYU name has only ever been good for me. I'm not sure who you've talked to about BYU's reputation, but I know from experience that BYU has a strong academic reputation in the government and legal communities. Certainly there is also a strong reputation for being full of Mormons, it might even be the primary reputation, but that doesn't diminish the positive academic reputation that most people also recognize.


When I said non-Mormons don't think about the school on academic level, I meant they don't really have an opinion one way or another because most of us haven't heard anything about its academics. We just know that it is full of Mormons. (And fwiw, I went to a high school in the mountain area - not Utah - and there were a fair number of Mormons in my class and I lived right near a Mormon temple. Many of these kids ended up at BYU, many of them top students, and I assumed it was for the religious community. I didn't really have an opinion about the school except it seems all the kids I knew that ended up there were nerdy.)

Fwiw, non-Mormons think Mormons are (very) conservative (as in you guys can't even drink soda), hard-working people so they definitely don't think of BYU as a "party school" like UC Santa Barbara or X State school, but beyond that we don't really have an opinion.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:19 am
by cjanis
fortissimo wrote:
cjanis wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Romothesavior is pretty much on the ball.
The rep: it's full of Mormons.

I don't think non-Mormons think about the school on an academic level.


Again, I don't think you and Romothesavior are completely wrong, but as someone who has BYU on my resume I have never perceived any bias against me. The BYU name has only ever been good for me. I'm not sure who you've talked to about BYU's reputation, but I know from experience that BYU has a strong academic reputation in the government and legal communities. Certainly there is also a strong reputation for being full of Mormons, it might even be the primary reputation, but that doesn't diminish the positive academic reputation that most people also recognize.


When I said non-Mormons don't think about the school on academic level, I meant they don't really have an opinion one way or another because most of us haven't heard anything about its academics. We just know that it is full of Mormons. (And fwiw, I went to a high school in the mountain area - not Utah - and there were a fair number of Mormons in my class and I lived right near a Mormon temple. Many of these kids ended up at BYU, many of them top students, and I assumed it was for the religious community. I didn't really have an opinion about the school except it seems all the kids I knew that ended up there were nerdy.)

Fwiw, non-Mormons think Mormons are (very) conservative (as in you guys can't even drink soda), hard-working people so they definitely don't think of BYU as a "party school" like UC Santa Barbara or X State school, but beyond that we don't really have an opinion.


Lol, well, that makes sense then. I'm sure that the first thought most people have probably is "BYU is full of Mormons." I hope, however, that the second thought is either "they have a good basketball/football team" or "that's a good school." Either way, as long as the thought goes beyond being full of Mormons it's fine with me.

Though, as long as we're on the subject, there's nothing in the church about not drinking soda. Lots of Mormons don't drink caffeine, but that, like being conservative, is more about tradition than doctrine.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:41 am
by yeast master
I added the red text:

bgdddymtty wrote:...My only contention was (is) that there are several political stances generally lumped into the "socially progressive" category, many of which you cited explicitly, that are in direct opposition to the doctrine of the Church as expressed by the First Presidency and the Twelve. If one supports any of these things, s/he must not believe that the men whom s/he purports to sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators actually are those things.

Here's the logic:
1. I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's church restored upon the Earth.
2. Therefore, I believe that God speaks to man through prophets, specifically those who are called as such within the LDS Church, and that
2a. everything these prophets say and everything they advocate is a direct reflection of the will of God.

3. Those prophets have said thing X.
4. I believe the opposite of thing X.
5. Therefore, I either:
a. Don't actually believe that #1 is true, or that #2a follows from #1, or both.
b. Find myself in disagreement with God.


I think you need #2a to make the logic sound. #2a, i.e. prophetic infallibility, is not a tenet of Mormonism.

Church leadership has declined to make one's views on any of these hot-button social issues a litmus test for fellowship. In fact, they went out of their way to make it clear that, for example, opposition to Prop 8 would have no impact on a member's good standing. As such, I think we should allow each other a fair amount of latitude on these things that are not foundational to our faith without calling each others' "Mormon-ness" into question.

(I'm fairly conservative, FWIW.)

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:18 am
by yeast master
BTW, I think this thread's evolution is hilarious. Who would have guessed that it would turn into a Mormon-on-Mormon smackdown? You guys should go fight on the Mormon blogs. These questions have been debated for years at many of the blogs listed at ldsblogs.org, which, by the way, is exhibit A for diversity of thought within the Mormon community.

Just to throw erico a bone and add a take on the BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons thing, I'll say that in my experience amongst East Coast academic scientists, your publication record greatly overshadows anything else on your resume. I've also found that, for the most part, the highly educated are pretty respectful about religious differences, at least in face-to-face situations. They're also pretty fair and are willing to drop their prejudices when presented with a real life Mormon who acts like a normal person. I figure people in the legal world will be similar.

When I've mentioned to people in my world that I'm considering BYU, they usually have a positive reaction. These aren't legal people, so their opinion isn't as relevant, but people seem to think it's a good school. That, or they're just being nice and not saying what they really think.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:44 pm
by johnstuartmill
bgdddymtty wrote:
Although I'm atheist, I come from a BIG Catholic family, and I don't think a single member of my extended family believes in Catholic doctrine word for word, even my very pious grandmother.

Then they're not really Catholic. The religion is that God gives direction through an appointed oracle, and that what that oracle says is every bit as much in force as if God Himself had said it. Period. You don't have to believe that. But if you don't, you are, by definition, not a believer in that religion.

So you're admitting that either you're not a believer in Mormonism, or that you believe that the penalty for interracial marriage is death on the spot?

Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110 wrote:Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:56 pm
by erico
oh yeah that reminds me, time to unsubscribe..

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:00 pm
by ConMan345
The lawyers and partners in the firm I work at make fun of Mormons. In my experience, most educated people range from doing the same to just thinking it's strange and off-putting.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:38 am
by Joymin
Is it really true that BYU students don't even take coffee? Kudos to them. I would not be able to get through law school at all without that!

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:09 pm
by im_blue
Joymin wrote:Is it really true that BYU students don't even take coffee? Kudos to them. I would not be able to get through law school at all without that!

BYU forbids smoking, drinking, coffee, tea, or caffeinated soda.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:01 pm
by Capitol A
I grew up in a heavily momrom community, I have always had a lot of mormom friends, and extrememly conservative people think I'm too conservative.
In addition I have never even been to Utah, much less visited the campus of BYU. All this being said, my experience with, and view of mormoms, and what I would expect a school run by them keeps me from having even a passing interest in attending BYU.
I fully admit that this view is based largely on ignorance, but I think that's one of the things about mormonism that people find off putting (as opposed to catholicism for instance) is that non-members know nothing about the religion, and really don't have a way of getting any info either.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:35 pm
by Fred_McGriff
To throw another log on the fire with regard to the whole comparison with ND:

At its high level (Jesuit philosophers, doctorate level educated students of Catholic theology, the people holding the big arguments over spiritual issues at the Vatican, etc.) Catholicism has a suprisingly liberal side. An affirmed belief in extraterrestrial life, ultra left wing social gospel beliefs, theories that heaven is only an instant, high level debates about homosexuality, birth control, divorce, women entering the priesthood, etc. are all a very real part of the church.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:50 pm
by Capitol A
Fred_McGriff wrote:To throw another log on the fire with regard to the whole comparison with ND:

At its high level (Jesuit philosophers, doctorate level educated students of Catholic theology, the people holding the big arguments over spiritual issues at the Vatican, etc.) Catholicism has a suprisingly liberal side. An affirmed belief in extraterrestrial life, ultra left wing social gospel beliefs, theories that heaven is only an instant, high level debates about homosexuality, birth control, divorce, women entering the priesthood, etc. are all a very real part of the church.

I agree. In addition to this, there are a tremendous number of people in the U.S. who are "culturally catholic," but only attend mass on Christmas and maybe Easter. These people are more like functional atheists, but Catholic enough to revere a place like ND or BC. You really don't see "cultural mormons." People are typically either active mormoms, or not the least bit involved in the church, and would never attend BYU.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:52 pm
by RVP11
johnstuartmill wrote:One of my close friends is a born-and-bred California Mormon, and she tells me that she's having a hard time fitting in socially in Utah. I don't know if that's a potential problem for the OP.


BYU is stiflingly Mormon, even for most Mormons.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:54 pm
by Capitol A
RVP11 wrote:
johnstuartmill wrote:One of my close friends is a born-and-bred California Mormon, and she tells me that she's having a hard time fitting in socially in Utah. I don't know if that's a potential problem for the OP.


BYU is stiflingly Mormon, even for most Mormons.

That's exactly what I imagine, despite having never been anywhere near the place.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:55 pm
by im_blue
RVP11 wrote:
johnstuartmill wrote:One of my close friends is a born-and-bred California Mormon, and she tells me that she's having a hard time fitting in socially in Utah. I don't know if that's a potential problem for the OP.


BYU is stiflingly Mormon, even for most Mormons.

According to wiki, BYU is 98% Mormon, and 97% of males and 32% of females have taken a 2-year hiatus during UG to serve as a missionary for the LDS church.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:02 pm
by romothesavior
Glad this thread could make a comeback.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:45 am
by Joymin
Thanks, guys. TLS forums are really eye-openers!

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:47 am
by ahduth
romothesavior wrote:Glad this thread could make a comeback.


This. I didn't catch this the first time around, but 100% win from where I sit.

Also, the comparisons between BYU and ND: wat. ND places people in Chicago all the time. I know Chicago isn't NY or DC, and I know the market sucks there right now. But is BYU really placing in SF or LA?

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:45 am
by quakeroats
On the plus side, if you attend BYU you'll have Park City, and several other world-class ski/board areas in your backyard.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:04 am
by CanadianWolf
But what if Mitt Romney gets elected President ?

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:24 am
by AreJay711
bgdddymtty wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How is this so-called "prophet" in Mormonism any different from the Pope in Catholocism?

I'm not an expert on Roman Catholicism, but my understanding is that they are similar enough for this discussion. The Pope is considered to be the vicar of Christ, and there is a doctrine of papal infallibility.


I come from a BIG Catholic family, and I don't think a single member of my extended family believes in Catholic doctrine word for word, even my very pious grandmother.

Then they're not really Catholic. The religion is that God gives direction through an appointed oracle, and that what that oracle says is every bit as much in force as if God Himself had said it. Period. You don't have to believe that. But if you don't, you are, by definition, not a believer in that religion. You think they have a bunch of good ideas and some bad ones. You feel tied to the traditions. You are attached to a social circle. But when it comes down to it, your faith is something else.


No, no, no. The doctrine of papal infalibility has only been used like 2 times and only includes things that the Pope SAYS are infallible (a little weird but w/e). One of the times was when he said that the virgin Mary was indeed a virgin (hence that Jesus was not a bastard child) and the other was that Mary was taken to heaven ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infa ... allibility ). What the Pope just says when he is not speaking with the authority of the Holy Spirit is not infallible. And you know there was a reformation and the Church so it is pretty widely accepted that not everything the Church does or says is in accordance with God's will making individual disagreements with the Church tradition (not scriptures) possibly valid.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:54 am
by Capitol A
CanadianWolf wrote:But what if Mitt Romney gets elected President ?

Just LOL'd.
That would change things though.

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:28 pm
by romothesavior
quakeroats wrote:On the plus side, if you attend BYU you'll have Park City, and several other world-class ski/board areas in your backyard.

But what good is skiing if you aren't pounding beers and trying to get laid back at the resort?

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:12 pm
by Capitol A
romothesavior wrote:
quakeroats wrote:On the plus side, if you attend BYU you'll have Park City, and several other world-class ski/board areas in your backyard.

But what good is skiing if you aren't pounding beers and trying to get laid back at the resort?

+10000

Re: BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:51 pm
by skers
RVP11 wrote:
johnstuartmill wrote:One of my close friends is a born-and-bred California Mormon, and she tells me that she's having a hard time fitting in socially in Utah. I don't know if that's a potential problem for the OP.


BYU is stiflingly Mormon, even for most Mormons.


As someone who grew up Mormon and left the church, maybe I can add a different perspective. Sure, BYU has some uber crazies, but like any other religion there's a spectrum. There's a fair number of students that go to BYU only because that's where mommy and daddy will pay the tuition. So, there's a sizable minority of more "wordly" BYU goers. If you're looking to drink, smoke, and fuck in Provo you can certainly find it.