BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons Forum

[buckley]

This forum has gotten far to serious and productive in its old age, back to what I think is the main point.

BYU is a training center for culturally isolated homophobes, and when I am a partner at a law firm some day, I will blacklist the school and refuse to hire any of its grads, and every other homosexual in the country will probably be doing the same thing.

Don't you find your statement somewhat ironic?

[nealric]

Initially it may seem difficult to wrap your head around the thought process behind this particular regulation. But you just have to ask yourself What Would Jesus Do? Its pretty clear that Jesus would have shaved every morning before heading out to heal the lepers and/or teach people new fishing skills.

The far more important question: what would Brigham Young do?

[sundevil77]

This forum has gotten far to serious and productive in its old age, back to what I think is the main point.

BYU is a training center for culturally isolated homophobes, and when I am a partner at a law firm some day, I will blacklist the school and refuse to hire any of its grads, and every other homosexual in the country will probably be doing the same thing.

So what kind of numbers are we talking here? Let's see, about 1.5% of Americans are homosexual right? How many of them are partners at law firms? Probably not an issue in most cases.

OP, don't feed the troll. The dude's trying to flame you. Plus, there are some definite EEOC violations in his statement anyway.

[CE2JD]

This forum has gotten far to serious and productive in its old age, back to what I think is the main point.

BYU is a training center for culturally isolated homophobes, and when I am a partner at a law firm some day, I will blacklist the school and refuse to hire any of its grads, and every other homosexual in the country will probably be doing the same thing.

the only partner you'll ever be is a civil partner.

[Cupidity]

I really hope no one took me seriously, it's Bringham Young, its a fine school. I wouldn't go there because it is a regional--as all are schools outside the T-14, and its in a region I (and I imagine most people) have little interest in. I just like making ridiculous claims about conservative schools like BYU and ND.

BYU may be an insanely conservative school, but hey, at least kenneth starr isn't their dean.

Suck it pepperdine.

[nealric]

I just find it amusing that a school named after a guy who sported a gigantic beard forbids its students to have beards.

[MC Southstar]

By the way, I think it's disputed how many homosexuals there are. Advocates of "traditional values" claim it is as low as 1-2% but other sources say it is as high as 10-15% of the population.

[James Bond]

By the way, I think it's disputed how many homosexuals there are. Advocates of "traditional values" claim it is as low as 1-2% but other sources say it is as high as 10-15% of the population.

I've always heard 10%

[violaboy]

There are lots of gays at BYU, but most people are totally oblivious to it. It's much higher than 1-2% of the BYU population, if that says anything...

[Mr. Matlock]

Initially it may seem difficult to wrap your head around the thought process behind this particular regulation. But you just have to ask yourself What Would Jesus Do? Its pretty clear that Jesus would have shaved every morning before heading out to heal the lepers and/or teach people new fishing skills.

The far more important question: what would Brigham Young do?

Fuck one of his 40 wives?

[cougarlive]

By the way, I think it's disputed how many homosexuals there are. Advocates of "traditional values" claim it is as low as 1-2% but other sources say it is as high as 10-15% of the population.

I agree. It's a matter of a tremendous amount of debate. If its 1-2%, its easier to see it as being "abnormal behavior" (in the strictest psychological and statistical sense). If it's 10-15%, then it becomes more "normal" on the behavioral continuum. This is a statistic that both sides of the debate would try and manipulate to their advantage.

[erico]

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[Lord Jim-ish]

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[erico]

As far as GW, BU, and BC are concerned, in California they are viewed as (maybe) a half-step up from BYU depending on who you ask. Those will give you better access to the East Coast, for sure. It's really a money game at that point. With your numbers (GPA a little low--mine was too) I don't know if any of those would throw significant money at you. If you have a 1/4 tuition scholarship you're sitting at about 30k a year in tuition plus DC/Boston CoL. Best case scenario you leave with around 150k of debt. Provo, you could easily live on 10k a year plus 10k tuition a year and you could leave with around 60k of debt. BYU won't throw any money your way, and tuition will likely increase modestly, but that's likely to happen anywhere you go.

Hastings/Davis is probably viewed as on-par or above BYU, but have you seen the new in-state tuition prices?!? It's gonna be 40k in-state--don't even mention 50k out of state. As such, I think that Loyola is probably cheaper. As far as Loyola/Pepperdine are concerned, you should talk to some locals about those schools and their placement. USD might throw money at you to get that LSAT score, and so that's something to consider for sure.

My bottom line, and I've told this to a few kids is:
1. Even if we have a robust recovery, we don't know what biglaw compensation/hiring is going to look like in 4-5 years.
2. You probably don't have T14 numbers, and as such, it's a risk to pay sticker price anywhere.
3. BYU is super cheap and gives you a shot at Biglaw and the California market. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to settle for less either money-wise or geographically. None of the schools you listed will give you a huge advantage over the Y, but likely they will cost significantly more. If you can get through three years in Provo (it has an In-and-Out now) then I think you should at least strongly consider it. If nothing works out, at least you'll have a very manageable pile of debt.

Most hiring people aren't going to ding you based on your religious affiliation. If they do, it's not a place you wanted to work anyway.

Well, I'm in at BYU, BC and USD. WL at GWU, so it seems I'm making these comparisons again. BYU is the frontrunner for me, mainly due to cost, but also because of its good reputation and reach to CA. I'm not sure what BC's reach to the west is like..any ideas?

[danquayle]

BYU is like Notre Dame in most ways. It draws largely from a certain population, and that population overvalues it. However, because of that, it places better than its lay prestige would otherwise indicate. Furthermore, its not entirely reasonable for a devout Mormon to choose BYU over a T-14, just like I personally know many devout Catholics have

The primary difference between BYU and Notre Dame is that the Mormon population is both smaller and more cohesive. There are just a lot more Catholics than Mormons, so Notre Dame's reputation is more permeated into mainstream culture and geographically widespread than BYU's.

On the flip, I'm guessing a BYU Mormon grad would favor a fellow BYU Mormon grad more than a ND Alum would favor a fellow ND Alum for precisely that very reason.

They're not too unlike state schools in that they place better than their rank amid their primary constituency. The difference is just that state schools have a geographic constituency, and these schools have a cultural constituency. (Howard could also be said to be similar in that respect to Notre Dame/BYU.)

[danquayle]

But to answer the OP's question more succinctly:

I assume that many Mormons go to BYU purely for cultural reasons, and that many of those are top level flight students. Consequently, I assume the very top of the class is pretty bright. From what I've heard from others regarding this topic before, I'm not alone in thinking that.

[cjanis]

As a current BYU student I think I can share some useful information on this topic. First, despite the fact that the majority of the student body is conservative, there certainly isn't rampant homophobia. I noticed that Cupidity later retracted his/her statement, so I don't think there's much more that needs to be said about that.

More importantly, however, BYU does have a surprising diversity of opinion in the student body and faculty. It surprised me, at least. I am a liberal with solidly progressive views on pretty much every topic, GLBT rights included. While most of the school disagrees with me politically I am not the only liberal on campus, and most of the conservatives are open-minded and willing to have discussions without being rude or judgmental. I can't say that everyone would fit in on campus here, but if you're an open-minded person who's willing to be civil while discussing political matters you'll probably be fine.

As far as the topic of this forum goes, BYU's reputation amongst non-Mormons is, as far as I've been able to tell, quite positive. I've worked for a large firm in the Netherlands for a summer, and I'm currently working for a smaller firm that does international trade law from a few major East Coast and European cities, and in both situations I was the only Mormon and BYU alum. That didn't seem to make much of a difference to anyone, and to the extent that it did, it was just curiosity about the LDS Church in general.

I'd be happy to answer any specific questions anyone might have...

[td6624]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

[td6624]

Also, many Mormons support eliminating civil marriage altogether and allowing only civil unions to bestow the same civil rights on both gays and straights. In my experience, most Mormons just want to protect their own definition of marriage, not take away any substantive "rights" from gays (if you can even refer to the usage of a word to refer to one's own relationship as a "right").

This is the go-to cop out for people who are anti-marriage equality but want to sound somehow logical. Where's the ballot initiative to take the state out of all marriages? Why aren't people funneling millions to that cause? Mormons can keep their own definition of marriage. I suppose I missed the part of CA's overturned marriage law that forced Mormons to marry homosexuals in their church.

(and as someone already pointed out, for most people, BYU and Mormonism are inseparable in this country. If you're OK with people thinking "MORMONISM" when they hear where you went, then go for it. I seriously doubt people will avoid hiring a qualified person because of religion. People hire people who will get the job done.)

[jonas586]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

Asking a question in all seriousness doesn't make it any less retarded.

[td6624]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

Asking a question in all seriousness doesn't make it any less retarded.

--LinkRemoved--

Petersen described himself as "a socially conservative Democrat,'' and said his "most radical position" was that he opposed school vouchers. But what's it like to be a Mormon Democrat? This is what Petersen said:

"Many Mormon Democrats, such as me, experience frustration that we're not fully accepted into the Mormon Church tribe...Many of our fellow church members see us as apostates...Utah Mormons still ask the question, 'Can a good Mormon be a Democrat?' At times we progressive Mormons feel like we're not just a different tribe, but we're living on separate planets. The gap that divides us can seem quite unfathomable.''

but hey what the fuck would that guy know, right? lol

To deny that a Mormon progressive would look different from the average person's perceptions of "progressives" is "retarded," as you would say.

[cjanis]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

I can't speak for all socially progressive Mormons, but I think I'm pretty standard as far a progressive ideology goes. I'm generally pro-choice, I don't live in California but I was not a fan of Prop 8 and I would have voted against it if I had the chance, I support reasonable restrictions on guns, I am a staunch feminist, I support a less restrictive immigration policy, etc. There is a sizable minority of American Mormons who are similar to me in this regard.

I think it's important for non-Mormons to recognize that, despite the monolithic appearance our church sometimes projects, we are a very diverse group of people. More than half of the members of the church live outside the US, and of those the vast majority would differ greatly from the general political ideology of the US membership. It just happens that most Mormons in the US are conservatives. Even in the US, however, there is a lot of variation. The ideology of church members in Utah is definitely more conservative than the ideology of members in DC or New York.

BYU Law reflects the general conservatism of US Mormons, but liberals like myself are free to have, hold, and discuss our views. We have one of the founding chapters of the American Constitution Society on campus, and we have an active and popular College Democrats club. We might not be Berkley, but that doesn't mean we're universally Glenn Beck fans.

[td6624]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

I can't speak for all socially progressive Mormons, but I think I'm pretty standard as far a progressive ideology goes. I'm generally pro-choice, I don't live in California but I was not a fan of Prop 8 and I would have voted against it if I had the chance, I support reasonable restrictions on guns, I am a staunch feminist, I support a less restrictive immigration policy, etc. There is a sizable minority of American Mormons who are similar to me in this regard.

I think it's important for non-Mormons to recognize that, despite the monolithic appearance our church sometimes projects, we are a very diverse group of people. More than half of the members of the church live outside the US, and of those the vast majority would differ greatly from the general political ideology of the US membership. It just happens that most Mormons in the US are conservatives. Even in the US, however, there is a lot of variation. The ideology of church members in Utah is definitely more conservative than the ideology of members in DC or New York.

BYU Law reflects the general conservatism of US Mormons, but liberals like myself are free to have, hold, and discuss our views. We have one of the founding chapters of the American Constitution Society on campus, and we have an active and popular College Democrats club. We might not be Berkley, but that doesn't mean we're universally Glenn Beck fans.

Thank you for answering!

[cjanis]

You're welcome!

[romothesavior]

What does a socially progressive Mormon look like, in all seriousness? Were you part of the prop 8 money machine?

I can't speak for all socially progressive Mormons, but I think I'm pretty standard as far a progressive ideology goes. I'm generally pro-choice, I don't live in California but I was not a fan of Prop 8 and I would have voted against it if I had the chance, I support reasonable restrictions on guns, I am a staunch feminist, I support a less restrictive immigration policy, etc. There is a sizable minority of American Mormons who are similar to me in this regard.

I think it's important for non-Mormons to recognize that, despite the monolithic appearance our church sometimes projects, we are a very diverse group of people. More than half of the members of the church live outside the US, and of those the vast majority would differ greatly from the general political ideology of the US membership. It just happens that most Mormons in the US are conservatives. Even in the US, however, there is a lot of variation. The ideology of church members in Utah is definitely more conservative than the ideology of members in DC or New York.

BYU Law reflects the general conservatism of US Mormons, but liberals like myself are free to have, hold, and discuss our views. We have one of the founding chapters of the American Constitution Society on campus, and we have an active and popular College Democrats club. We might not be Berkley, but that doesn't mean we're universally Glenn Beck fans.

That's good to hear. Hopefully more Mormons like you start to have their voices heard so they can help to break the stereotype.