William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

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krispykitten
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby krispykitten » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:45 pm

How do you guys factor in W&L's 3rd year program? Still prefer W&M?

(disclosure: did undergrad at w&m and trying to choose between the two, and a few others)

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misformafia
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby misformafia » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:49 pm

add a pollllll

I'm biased, as I'm a 1L at W&L.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:51 pm

I'm really into W&L these days. They better accept me.

LSATfromNC
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby LSATfromNC » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:37 am

Now that I have been accepted at W&L and I am at the dreaded Decision Pending for W&M, I change my answer to W&L :)

Unadilla Kayaker
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby Unadilla Kayaker » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:41 am

LSATfromNC wrote:Now that I have been accepted at W&L and I am at the dreaded Decision Pending for W&M, I change my answer to W&L :)


I'll second that, though W&M will always have a special place in my heart. They were my #1 choice for UG but waitlisted me. I went to Richmond instead and don't regret it, but I'll need to visit both again before I can make a real decision.

But W&L's earlier acceptance does help its case.

avacado111
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby avacado111 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:13 am

krispykitten wrote:How do you guys factor in W&L's 3rd year program? Still prefer W&M?

(disclosure: did undergrad at w&m and trying to choose between the two, and a few others)


wandl 3rd year program is stopid. They are doing it to just try to increase their rankings and get attention. the end.

starstruck393
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby starstruck393 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:28 am

daniel5215 wrote:+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic


It's a little late, but w/e. I just think this is hilarious; this is one of the most uninformed statements I've heard in a while. Look up the history of William and Mary (the namesake monarchs, not the school). It's possible that the school is Protestant (but probably not anymore, like various ivies), but Jesuit (i.e. Catholic) definitely not...

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misformafia
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby misformafia » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:09 am

avacado111 wrote:
krispykitten wrote:How do you guys factor in W&L's 3rd year program? Still prefer W&M?

(disclosure: did undergrad at w&m and trying to choose between the two, and a few others)


wandl 3rd year program is stopid. They are doing it to just try to increase their rankings and get attention. the end.



lol. But seriously, a lot of attorneys say that they had to spend a year of so after graduation being trained on how the law actually works before they could be of any real use to firms. The thought is that this new third year better prepares 3Ls for more immediate immersion after passing the bar. Many other schools have started using the third year (through clinics and practicums) to do the same thing (Northwestern I know for sure). It remains to be seen what the effect of this will be, but W&L is just the school taking this trend the farthest. Additionally, its been said that the new third year is partially responsible for the drop in rankings as many of the judges and lawyers polled were apprehensive about the change.

general100
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby general100 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:16 am

Today's WaPo profiled the third year program at W&L

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... -education


(Full disclosure: Undergrad at Washington & Lee, considering law school there)


Edit: The WSJ covered the WaPo's story today on its law blog:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/12/18/is- ... he-future/

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Havaianas
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby Havaianas » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:37 pm

Well I'm assuming you dont care about being near the city, night life, culture, etc because there just aint much going on in Williamsburg or Lexington. That said - if I were a URM of any type (well I am but if you are) I would be at W&M in a heartbeat. Lexington is waaaay to close to West Virginia,VMI, Appalachia, blue grass, etc for my taste. I went to UVA undergrad and currently live/work in Charlottesville so have been around Central Virginia for a while. But if you'd rather not be near Colonial Williamsburg for 3 years thats something to think about as well.

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:48 pm

I'm not expecting to get into either school but I after examining both pretty closely I would go with W&M. The school is excellent, feeds into DC (where I want to work) and to top it all off it has some great history.

As or lay prestige I would say W&M is relatively strong in that department. I live on the West Coast and even people here know it as a good school even if they don't know specifics. People here have never heard of Washington & Lee.

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Havaianas
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby Havaianas » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:15 pm

Thanks general for that info.

krispykitten
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby krispykitten » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:34 pm

.
Last edited by krispykitten on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doritos
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby Doritos » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:22 pm

general100 wrote:Today's WaPo profiled the third year program at W&L

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... -education


(Full disclosure: Undergrad at Washington & Lee, considering law school there)


Edit: The WSJ covered the WaPo's story today on its law blog:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/12/18/is- ... he-future/



That moot court room looks amazing

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jss1100
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby jss1100 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:47 am

Do you think the new 3rd year at W&L is going to have a notable impact on its career prospects/rankings?

Any predictions? It sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Will it pay off in the job hunting department?

wehman
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby wehman » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:00 pm

I have heard that firms in Richmond are more likely to choose W&L and UVA (obviously UVA) and then W&M, being 3rd.

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misformafia
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby misformafia » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:08 pm

jss1100 wrote:Do you think the new 3rd year at W&L is going to have a notable impact on its career prospects/rankings?

Any predictions? It sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Will it pay off in the job hunting department?



At this point it's sort of hard to tell. After this year and next year's classes graduate we'll see how they fair compared to peer schools. It's a bit of a gamble at this point, but because many schools already do some level of third year clinical/ practicum work I don't think it's necessarily a deal breaker either way. On the one hand proponents of the classic Harvard model are resisting change, and on the other people have been calling from more practical legal education for a long time. I think it's a good idea and am willing to bet it will provide an advantage in 3 years, but I go here, so I'm biased. :mrgreen:

gregw8705
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby gregw8705 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:50 am

I've never understood why TLS is so high on William & Mary. My understanding is that their placement numbers, even for DC, are equal to or, if there's any difference, worse than W&L's. There's already been evidence posted in this thread that W&L has twice the Article 3 clerkships.

As a native Virginian, I know that both W&L and W&M are both prestigious with the people who matter. Your cousin the waitress won't be on the hiring committee at any law firm. Attorneys in any region where graduates of the two schools work will be familiar with the institutions and recognize their similar reputations, although I'm under the impression W&L has a small-but-tangible advantage in reputation.

I've spent a lot of time in the Shenandoah Valley (where W&L is located) and the tidewater region (where W&M is located). Williamsburg is basically in a swamp. Lexington is in the Blue Ridge mountains. A lot of TLS threads have arbitrarily concluded that Williamsburg has more to do than Lexington, but it's not so clear cut in my mind. Williamsburg has maybe 1 more bar than Lexington (depends on what you count as a bar). If W&M law students are anything like my W&L classmates, most law students usually end up at the same one anyway.

The outdoor activities are better in Lexington. There are a ton of hiking trails, navigable rivers to canoe or kayak, etc. Williamsburg's best outdoor activities are closer to the beach, and, besides typical beach activities, they involve things like kayaking in the "Great Dismal Swamp". Yippee.

The one advantage W&M has is that the beach is only 1-1.5 hours away. That's assuming 64 is somehow miraculously free of traffic, however. It's also unlikely you'll have enough time to truly enjoy being that close to the beach, though, given that you're in law school.

I'm being a little to harsh toward Williamsburg, but my point is that reality is nothing like a cut-and-dry W&M=fun W&L=boring dichotomy. I'd recommend a visit to both law schools and make it a point to talk to some current students.

Oh, if any of you end up admitted to W&L, come to the Admitted Student Days. I had a blast, and you'll get to sample the allegedly "boring" nightlife in Lexington. Hell, maybe I'll even buy you a drink.

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misformafia
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby misformafia » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:08 am

gregw8705 wrote:I've never understood why TLS is so high on William & Mary. My understanding is that their placement numbers, even for DC, are equal to or, if there's any difference, worse than W&L's. There's already been evidence posted in this thread that W&L has twice the Article 3 clerkships.

As a native Virginian, I know that both W&L and W&M are both prestigious with the people who matter. Your cousin the waitress won't be on the hiring committee at any law firm. Attorneys in any region where graduates of the two schools work will be familiar with the institutions and recognize their similar reputations, although I'm under the impression W&L has a small-but-tangible advantage in reputation.

I've spent a lot of time in the Shenandoah Valley (where W&L is located) and the tidewater region (where W&M is located). Williamsburg is basically in a swamp. Lexington is in the Blue Ridge mountains. A lot of TLS threads have arbitrarily concluded that Williamsburg has more to do than Lexington, but it's not so clear cut in my mind. Williamsburg has maybe 1 more bar than Lexington (depends on what you count as a bar). If W&M law students are anything like my W&L classmates, most law students usually end up at the same one anyway.

The outdoor activities are better in Lexington. There are a ton of hiking trails, navigable rivers to canoe or kayak, etc. Williamsburg's best outdoor activities are closer to the beach, and, besides typical beach activities, they involve things like kayaking in the "Great Dismal Swamp". Yippee.

The one advantage W&M has is that the beach is only 1-1.5 hours away. That's assuming 64 is somehow miraculously free of traffic, however. It's also unlikely you'll have enough time to truly enjoy being that close to the beach, though, given that you're in law school.

I'm being a little to harsh toward Williamsburg, but my point is that reality is nothing like a cut-and-dry W&M=fun W&L=boring dichotomy. I'd recommend a visit to both law schools and make it a point to talk to some current students.

Oh, if any of you end up admitted to W&L, come to the Admitted Student Days. I had a blast, and you'll get to sample the allegedly "boring" nightlife in Lexington. Hell, maybe I'll even buy you a drink.


TITMFCR.

LSATfromNC
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby LSATfromNC » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:38 am

gregw8705 wrote:I've never understood why TLS is so high on William & Mary. My understanding is that their placement numbers, even for DC, are equal to or, if there's any difference, worse than W&L's. There's already been evidence posted in this thread that W&L has twice the Article 3 clerkships.

As a native Virginian, I know that both W&L and W&M are both prestigious with the people who matter. Your cousin the waitress won't be on the hiring committee at any law firm. Attorneys in any region where graduates of the two schools work will be familiar with the institutions and recognize their similar reputations, although I'm under the impression W&L has a small-but-tangible advantage in reputation.

I've spent a lot of time in the Shenandoah Valley (where W&L is located) and the tidewater region (where W&M is located). Williamsburg is basically in a swamp. Lexington is in the Blue Ridge mountains. A lot of TLS threads have arbitrarily concluded that Williamsburg has more to do than Lexington, but it's not so clear cut in my mind. Williamsburg has maybe 1 more bar than Lexington (depends on what you count as a bar). If W&M law students are anything like my W&L classmates, most law students usually end up at the same one anyway.

The outdoor activities are better in Lexington. There are a ton of hiking trails, navigable rivers to canoe or kayak, etc. Williamsburg's best outdoor activities are closer to the beach, and, besides typical beach activities, they involve things like kayaking in the "Great Dismal Swamp". Yippee.

The one advantage W&M has is that the beach is only 1-1.5 hours away. That's assuming 64 is somehow miraculously free of traffic, however. It's also unlikely you'll have enough time to truly enjoy being that close to the beach, though, given that you're in law school.

I'm being a little to harsh toward Williamsburg, but my point is that reality is nothing like a cut-and-dry W&M=fun W&L=boring dichotomy. I'd recommend a visit to both law schools and make it a point to talk to some current students.

Oh, if any of you end up admitted to W&L, come to the Admitted Student Days. I had a blast, and you'll get to sample the allegedly "boring" nightlife in Lexington. Hell, maybe I'll even buy you a drink.


About that drink...

flcath
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:56 am

xanderdellus wrote:http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95307

At least one person thinks W&M has top lay prestige. Not that I endorse the full rankings.

I am thrilled to see that this thread has become the definitive source for evaluating lay prestige.

I think the W&L/W&M debate is entirely contingent upon the financial package offered by each. W&M is public, and you CAN get in-state tuition after 1L pretty easily, but I imagine W&L compensates for this in their financial aid--I mean, the two schools compete for basically every student they admit.

Solution: W&M
Reason: Lay prestige, all the way

gregw8705
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby gregw8705 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:06 pm

flcath wrote:
xanderdellus wrote:http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95307

At least one person thinks W&M has top lay prestige. Not that I endorse the full rankings.

I am thrilled to see that this thread has become the definitive source for evaluating lay prestige.

I think the W&L/W&M debate is entirely contingent upon the financial package offered by each. W&M is public, and you CAN get in-state tuition after 1L pretty easily, but I imagine W&L compensates for this in their financial aid--I mean, the two schools compete for basically every student they admit.

Solution: W&M
Reason: Lay prestige, all the way


You can't establish residency in Virginia if you're only in the state to attend school. Virginia requires that you be in the state for reasons beyond merely getting an education to get in-state tuition rates. So I think your advice about in-state tuition after 1L at W&M is inaccurate unless you can establish other reasons for coming to Virginia.

I'm also not convinced that lay prestige is very important. I think the emphasis on "lay" prestige is off by one letter. We should emphasize laW prestige. Think of it like this: School A is most impressive to the man on the street. School B is not as impressive to name drop in conversation as its name recognition is not as high in some places. School B is more impressive than school A in legal circles. Which should you pick?

I think the answer is school B unless you're going to law school in order to impress the general public. Given that hypo, School A is W&M, School B is W&L. That's my two cents.

Note: Lay prestige might be more important if you're trying to solo or something like that. In that case, the general public will be relying on their knowledge of schools to assess your educational pedigree.

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ruleser
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby ruleser » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:19 pm

misformafia wrote:
gregw8705 wrote:I've never understood why TLS is so high on William & Mary. My understanding is that their placement numbers, even for DC, are equal to or, if there's any difference, worse than W&L's. There's already been evidence posted in this thread that W&L has twice the Article 3 clerkships.

As a native Virginian, I know that both W&L and W&M are both prestigious with the people who matter. Your cousin the waitress won't be on the hiring committee at any law firm. Attorneys in any region where graduates of the two schools work will be familiar with the institutions and recognize their similar reputations, although I'm under the impression W&L has a small-but-tangible advantage in reputation.

I've spent a lot of time in the Shenandoah Valley (where W&L is located) and the tidewater region (where W&M is located). Williamsburg is basically in a swamp. Lexington is in the Blue Ridge mountains. A lot of TLS threads have arbitrarily concluded that Williamsburg has more to do than Lexington, but it's not so clear cut in my mind. Williamsburg has maybe 1 more bar than Lexington (depends on what you count as a bar). If W&M law students are anything like my W&L classmates, most law students usually end up at the same one anyway.

The outdoor activities are better in Lexington. There are a ton of hiking trails, navigable rivers to canoe or kayak, etc. Williamsburg's best outdoor activities are closer to the beach, and, besides typical beach activities, they involve things like kayaking in the "Great Dismal Swamp". Yippee.

The one advantage W&M has is that the beach is only 1-1.5 hours away. That's assuming 64 is somehow miraculously free of traffic, however. It's also unlikely you'll have enough time to truly enjoy being that close to the beach, though, given that you're in law school.

I'm being a little to harsh toward Williamsburg, but my point is that reality is nothing like a cut-and-dry W&M=fun W&L=boring dichotomy. I'd recommend a visit to both law schools and make it a point to talk to some current students.

Oh, if any of you end up admitted to W&L, come to the Admitted Student Days. I had a blast, and you'll get to sample the allegedly "boring" nightlife in Lexington. Hell, maybe I'll even buy you a drink.


TITMFCR.

+1 This and the person who cleared up the lack of importance of the dean leaving have been the shizzle...

flcath
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:28 pm

gregw8705 wrote:
flcath wrote:
xanderdellus wrote:http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95307

At least one person thinks W&M has top lay prestige. Not that I endorse the full rankings.

I am thrilled to see that this thread has become the definitive source for evaluating lay prestige.

I think the W&L/W&M debate is entirely contingent upon the financial package offered by each. W&M is public, and you CAN get in-state tuition after 1L pretty easily, but I imagine W&L compensates for this in their financial aid--I mean, the two schools compete for basically every student they admit.

Solution: W&M
Reason: Lay prestige, all the way


You can't establish residency in Virginia if you're only in the state to attend school. Virginia requires that you be in the state for reasons beyond merely getting an education to get in-state tuition rates. So I think your advice about in-state tuition after 1L at W&M is inaccurate unless you can establish other reasons for coming to Virginia.

I'm also not convinced that lay prestige is very important. I think the emphasis on "lay" prestige is off by one letter. We should emphasize laW prestige. Think of it like this: School A is most impressive to the man on the street. School B is not as impressive to name drop in conversation as its name recognition is not as high in some places. School B is more impressive than school A in legal circles. Which should you pick?

I think the answer is school B unless you're going to law school in order to impress the general public. Given that hypo, School A is W&M, School B is W&L. That's my two cents.

Note: Lay prestige might be more important if you're trying to solo or something like that. In that case, the general public will be relying on their knowledge of schools to assess your educational pedigree.

I was kidding about lay prestige, but I know several people who got in-state VA residency after 1L. A lot of states that supposedly have the criteria you mentioned will switch you to in-state as long as you live off campus for 1L.

If I'm wrong about the residency, then I apologize, but I really think I'm correct in this case (though I don't know the particulars, knowing people who've done it seems to prove the point equally well).

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Doritos
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Re: William and Mary vs Washington and Lee?

Postby Doritos » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:33 pm

flcath wrote:
gregw8705 wrote:
flcath wrote:
xanderdellus wrote:http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95307

At least one person thinks W&M has top lay prestige. Not that I endorse the full rankings.

I am thrilled to see that this thread has become the definitive source for evaluating lay prestige.

I think the W&L/W&M debate is entirely contingent upon the financial package offered by each. W&M is public, and you CAN get in-state tuition after 1L pretty easily, but I imagine W&L compensates for this in their financial aid--I mean, the two schools compete for basically every student they admit.

Solution: W&M
Reason: Lay prestige, all the way


You can't establish residency in Virginia if you're only in the state to attend school. Virginia requires that you be in the state for reasons beyond merely getting an education to get in-state tuition rates. So I think your advice about in-state tuition after 1L at W&M is inaccurate unless you can establish other reasons for coming to Virginia.

I'm also not convinced that lay prestige is very important. I think the emphasis on "lay" prestige is off by one letter. We should emphasize laW prestige. Think of it like this: School A is most impressive to the man on the street. School B is not as impressive to name drop in conversation as its name recognition is not as high in some places. School B is more impressive than school A in legal circles. Which should you pick?

I think the answer is school B unless you're going to law school in order to impress the general public. Given that hypo, School A is W&M, School B is W&L. That's my two cents.

Note: Lay prestige might be more important if you're trying to solo or something like that. In that case, the general public will be relying on their knowledge of schools to assess your educational pedigree.

I was kidding about lay prestige, but I know several people who got in-state VA residency after 1L. A lot of states that supposedly have the criteria you mentioned will switch you to in-state as long as you live off campus for 1L.

If I'm wrong about the residency, then I apologize, but I really think I'm correct in this case (though I don't know the particulars, knowing people who've done it seems to prove the point equally well).


I second this. A W&M alum told me that it was cake to get in state residency after the first year.




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