I don't see how your anecdotal evidence is superior to mine

Your anecdotal evidence of how some students at top law schools don't have jobs and therefore Michigan State students' job prospects can't be much worse?

You realize law school isn't like typical grad programs, and "good standing" is a 2.0 right? A typical TTT 1L curve is anywhere between 2.33-3.0 (I haven't ever heard of a TTT using a B+ curve). Even if MSU is on the high side (unlikely) with a 3.0 that still means you would need to do better then 50% of the class to keep the scholly. Doesn't sound like good odds to me at all. Also, if you're talking about attending without a living stipend, across 3 years that is still $45-50K just to cover cost of living, book, insurance, etc. Sounds like more of a risk then it's worth if you ask me. However, with a living stipend and no real goal to become a lawyer (i.e. you are attending just because it's free and figure worse case scenario you drink your face off for a year and then leave when they pull your scholly) then it would be worth taking the scholly.

I'm a 3L at a t14. I have no reason to be bitter towards MSU, I've never attended school there for anything.

The tactics they use for scholarship renewal are fairly common. You could change the name of the school to any school in t2/3/4 that offers conditional scholarships and have the same problem. Getting a 3.0 in law school isn't so easy on a B-/2.67 curve. Most schools in t2/3/4 use a B- or worse grading curve. I don't know what MSU's 1L grading curve is but I can promise you it's not above a 3.0, which, like the other guy said, means you'll have to do better than half your classmates. Law school isn't like getting a liberal arts degree in college. You don't get a 3.0 for practically just showing up. Everything is based on one exam for each class that you take at the end of the semester.

As for the job situation in Michigan, I'd urge you to talk to actual attorneys who work in the state, preferably recent graduates. Ask them what the job situation is like right now, and how their classmates are doing.

As a 3L at MSU Law, here is my unvarnished and frank opinion. Robin600 clearly has no first-hand knowledge of the Michigan legal market, for practically everything he or she said simply isn't true, and anyone in the legal profession in Michigan would know it.

Based on my experience working as an intern for a federal district court judge in Detroit, and as an intern for a federal appellate court judge, and a summer associate at a larger D-Town law firm, I say that in the Michigan legal community people recognize that MSU is on the rise, and WSU's prospects are dropping. This is from the opinion of a federal judge’s law clerk that went to WSU, as well as the opinions of 4 other judicial law clerks, as well as the recruiting committee of a larger Detroit law firm, as well as talking to attorneys working in Detroit, including WSU grads.

To say that Detroit law firms tend to hire more WSU grads than MSU shows that Robin600's opinion is based on ill-informed (or outdated) heresay. Further, to say that MSU grads tend to get hired in Grand Rapids as opposed to Detroit demonstrates ignorance of reality. It’s a FACT that the law firm I summered at in Detroit hired 75% of its summer associates from MSU, and 0% from Wayne. It’s a FACT that around 6-10% of my class have job offers from Detroit area firms paying $100k+. (On the other hand, I also know of some very smart people whose Detroit-based summer firms no-offered every summer associate they hired last year).

Someone posted how MSU went ape-shit when they rose to T3 (a good thing), yet failed to note that WSU that same year DROPPED to T4 (they've since recovered after their alums went ape-shit). After dipping into T4 a few years ago, its hard to say WSU's prospects are better than MSU. But facts aside, I suspect at both WSU and MSU, unless you are in the top 5-10%, your chances of a six figure job decrease dramatically. For all intents and purposes, both schools are comparable. But its also a fact that MSU Law is affiliated with a nationally well-known university, while Wayne State is not known nationally.

Now, no doubt about it, job prospects for any law student in Michigan are poor. And in the aggregate, going to a lower ranked law school is a risky bet – riskier than it was 3 years ago – and I would ward off people from even trying (too many lawyers right now – I’m looking at YOU Cooley!!).

With that background in mind, onto the OP's question. Here is my frame of reference. Unlike many people, I did not go into law school expecting to be in the top of my class – I dicked around in undergrad, studying philosophy and enjoying the MSU nightlife (whew!) – I was happy I didn’t have to consider Cooley, but a philosophy degree just doesn’t open that many doors besides advanced education.

However, I realized from day one that I had to kick-ass and make law review if I wanted a six-figure job – at least, that was the plan I devised for me. I knew I was very smart, but I’m sure everyone who heads into law school thinks that – that is, until they get a C on their first RWA paper, and dreadful reality sinks in (I’ll never forget the look at that poor girl’s face, and the fact that I felt strangely good, because every one of my peers was a mere obstacle to my A).
Through exceptionally hard work, luck, and a supportive fiancé, I was #1 after first semester. I shocked myself, but continued to repeat that level of performance each semester.

After my first year, MSU threw a 100% scholarship at me. I was going to transfer to UofM, and they knew it, but damn, two years free tuition is a ton o’ money, and since I knew I was staying in Michigan (family ties and other reasons), and since I knew that most of the major Michigan firms interview at both MSU and UofM, after much internal debate I opted to stay at MSU and not transfer. And I made the right decision. I could have gone to UofM and racked up $65,000+ more debt and ended up at the same job I now have lined up after graduation, where the people in the office next to me have UofM degrees. That’s a fact.

HERE IS WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER:
1) How sure are you that you will end up in the top 10% at MSU?
2) Does your answer change when you realize that most people going to law school think they will be at the top of their class?
3) Do you want to practice in Michigan? (If no, I’d say don’t come to MSU).

With the way the economy is, unless you are top 5% (maybe 10% if you are lucky), you can land a six figure job with an MSU degree. I also know of several top of the class people who didn’t appreciate the regional appeal of the MSU degree, and were turned down for jobs in NY and DC.

Now I personally know that at least 6-10% of my 3L class has $100k+ jobs waiting for them following graduation. For the rest, the common refrain from all employers is “apply after you pass the bar.”
I won’t candy-coat it. Unless you end up in the top 10% of your class at MSU, your job prospects will likely sharply drop off. But if you do end up top 10%, your full-ride scholarship and fair chance of landing of $100k+ job (in Michigan probably) will make it all worth your while.

Besides job prospects, consider that $100k less debt is a shit-ton of money when you think about it. With the economy now, if you are middle of the class at a T14 school, you still might not land a six-figure job, and then you have a fuck-load of debt. Moreover, consider this wisdom from one of my MSU professors I asked about transferring to UofM – if you save a ton of cash due to a full ride scholarship, your job options are actually broader, since you don’t necessarily have to take a Big(or Medium-)Law job just to pay off your debts. You can take a different job that offers much better work/life balance and have more freedom to find and do what you love.

MSU Law is an excellent school. The education I have received here has opened many doors for me – and both federal judges I worked for treated me like a law clerk by the end of my internship because of the quality of my work. I wrote a complete bench-brief for a federal appellate judge that was of such quality that the judge sent it to the other members of the panel to represent his viewpoint (and the ultimate published opinion utilized the same reasoning).

Sure, it’s a gamble, but that’s life. In the aggregate, I say to anyone, don’t go to law school. But for those that persevere and rise to the top, there will always be jobs for you. And as discussed, 95% of first-time Michigan bar takes from MSU law passed this year.

This sounds pretty accurate. It's nice to have someone else actually shed light on the reality of the school on site. There's just too much talk about how MSU or WSU dominate in the state or are even good schools if you want to work in a bigger firm in the state when that's not the reality. Top 5% does have a shot, but everyone else gets pretty boned (there are so many people paying $150K to attend there). During OCI I signed in to interview with one of the most selective firm in the state (you can guess as to which one), and the hiring partner (the interviewer) made the point that he would hire into the bottom half of the class here at Michigan and has no problems with the people being able to do the work, but felt that he could only skim the way top of the class at MSU. I still don't feel that UGPA and LSAT are exactly accurate indicators of actual performance as an attorney (which what he is basically using by hiring into the bottom of the class here and only the top of the class at WSU or MSU), but it's clearly something that employers see as important in terms of finding quality people. After spending a semester here, though, I guess employers aren't completely wrong with the thought that they can find more capable people here.

It utimately depends on your options. If you fail to crack the T25, then maybe. Otherwise, no!

Let's just be really honest about it. If you are from Michigan, MSU is acceptable (obviously assuming you don't get into UM; UM sticker > MSU full ride). If you are not from Michigan, MSU is probably not worth your time unless you plan on coming here and settling (and to be frank about it, you would be out of your damned mind to come here right now).

The only good things about MSU are that 1.) they are an up-and-coming law school (although I don't know how long it will take them to crack into T2), and 2.) most Michigan grads go out of state (to Chicago, NY, DC), so you're not competing with every single Michigan law grad (although plenty do choose to stay in state). But Michigan's economy will, believe it or not, recover at some point. Honestly, Metro Detroit is a great place to live and raise a family (and working downtown would be great too--downtown Detroit gets an undeserved bad reputation), so if you are okay with that, consider MSU.

But to be honest with you, OP, I checked your profile and Bama ($20K/yr) is better than MSU (full). I see that you're from NC, and I'm assuming you want to stay somewhere in the South. I am from Michigan and went to undergrad at an SEC school and believe me, you'll have a much greater experience at a significantly better law school in Tuscaloosa. EL is fun, but it's 45,000 undergrads running around burning couches and the bar scene is mediocre (much better in T-town).

Hope that helps.

This reminded me of a dude, who showed me some apartments around Ann Arbor earlier this year, and told me he was a non-practicing attorney. I asked the guy if he went to Michigan (thinking to myself WTF, a dude who went to Michigan is doing that shit work) and he told me he went to MSU law. Lol.

MSU is pretty much only acceptable if you have a crystal ball that tells you that you will make top 5%. Outside of that you're taking a pretty big risk that you may never even practice any kind of law (not that you couldn't find a job doing anything, but it's not very practical if you are talking about making $35K /year and working 55 hours).



Not really, their rankings were sitting in the middle of the 3rd tier last year (according to a prof at MSU's "reverse engineering" to figure out where they were ranking). Even if does ever make top 100 it really make no difference, nowadays even t25= TTT, with around 50% of CCN striking out at OCI, and it's definitely not unheard of for top 10% of t25 to strike out.

No, no it doesn't. The reputation of detroit is just about spot on. They just sold the Silverdome for $583,000. Any major US city that sells a major league athletic arena for under a million dollars is hurting.

IN AT MSU!

OMG YES MY FIRST ACCEPTANCE THIS CYCLE!

Pissed they didn't mention anything about scholarship money in the "your acceptance package is in the mail" email.

I don't think it matters much since im leaning away from it anyway BUT its just nice to feel wanted.

Scratch that, just got the call. Full Tuition

Um, the Silverdome is nowhere NEAR downtown Detroit. It's in Pontiac - a completely different locale. Having said that, I agree that Detroit deserves its reputation. Over a million people have up and left. It is the most depressing big city in America. The auto union destroyed a once prosperous city. Shame.

Pontiac is considered metro-Detroit. I guess I should have been more specific. Unless i'm talking crime statistics, rarely do I ever mean "the strict city limits of" detroit.

Is your profile BS? 3.9/179 and aiming for MSU just wouldn't make a lot of sense (or aiming for just about any school besides HYS).

Not every school people apply to are ones they are aiming for. Reach/Target/Safety. Plus ITE only fools pay for law school!

I would have to disagree. Working down at the Ren Center or the area around Greektown/Ford Field wouldn't be that bad. Of course, it's nothing compared to other major US cities like Chicago and NY and DC, but it's bar scene is ok and there are some good restaurants. Given, if you wander in the wrong direction three or four blocks, it's terrible. But I really don't think downtown is that awful.

And Pontiac is garbage, I don't know if you've ever been there, but yes you're right, it sucks. But it's 30 miles away from downtown. Different argument.

I spent 23 years in the detroit area. Anyone who is from the east side of Michigan knows that Pontiac is considered metro-detroit.

again, next time i'll throw the METRO in there for all the people who aren't natives.

Agreed, I'm also from the area so I understand the argument. But there are also a lot of nice suburbs that are part of Metro-Detroit, so I wouldn't say the whole metro area is worhtless. Anyways, congrats on the full scholarship from State.

You realize there is LRAP right? At really good schools (read: HYS) and a few other t14s you are either going to get into biglaw or the school will pretty much repay your debt for you (i.e., whether you work in private practice (read: shitlaw) or public service.) E.g. Yale will repay your entire loan if you make under $60K /year and after that you only make a 25% salary contribution towards your loans (e.g. if leave with $200K in debt and make $64K at graduation and thereafter, you would pay $1K /year for 10 years and be out of your student debt).

You'd actually be exposed to more risk going to a TTT w/ a scholarship stipulation (which most of them have) since those schools usually have pretty brutal curves and harsh requirements to keep your scholarship after your first year. Also, if you aren't going to get a living stipend with your full-ride (which it doesn't sound like you got since you said "full tuition"), that's $50K in debt right there across 3 years just to cover your cost of living, books, insurance, etc. So even if you keep your full ride it makes for a shitty deal across 3 years to go to a TTT.

I think Notmyrealname09 made the right decision for himself. If you are number 1 after 1L you'll have some decent options at most law schools, especially if you can perform consistently during 2L and 3L. Staying at MSU seems to have paid off, especially because they don't plan to leave the state.

I agree that job prospects are generally very poor for most law students in the region. When I say that I don't mean just six figure type jobs, I mean trying to get any decent legal job.

If you go to MSU because you took the conditional scholarship bait and can't keep it after 1L you won't be so happy. Especially if you were an MI resident and could've gotten in-state at Wayne or Toledo*. And if you had the numbers to get a full ride at MSU, you probably can get a similar conditional scholarship at those schools, and you'd have in-state to fall back on in case you lose it.

*See here: http://law.utoledo.edu/admissions/financial/index.htm

LRAP is great but not every school has the kind of generous LRAP that Yale has. At my T14, LRAP only works for public service jobs that meet specific requirements (other schools have similarly strict LRAPs) and the number of people trying to get LRAP eligible jobs right now is insane because of ITE. Lots of competition for those jobs out there. I don't think it's fair to say that if you go to t14 it's either biglaw or LRAP because that's clearly not the case right now, and I'm not sure if it ever was, even at the height of the biglaw boom.

Right, and I agree with that, but with a 3.9/179 (like rocketman purportedly has) you have a pretty good shot at HYS or a t14 with a generous LRAP program that covers low paying private legal jobs as well as public service (I know HY both cover private employment, not sure what stanford does, but I'm pretty sure they cover private employment). Hell, a 3.9/179 with some half way decent softs should be good for a free ride at Michigan and they don't attach GPA stipulations.



FWIW, there's a chic that transferred into my school this year that went to utoledo 1L. She said they had a total of 3 employers coming to their OCI (about as bad as Cooley in a good year). Pretty unlikely you'd find any legal job ITE leaving that school.

3 employers - ouch!

OCI really isn't anything to hang your hat on at t2/3/4 schools. Most students won't be getting jobs from OCI anyway because interviews are pre-screened and OCI is really only for those at or near the top of the class. If you go t2/3/4, you'll have to network for a job, even if you have good grades.

That doesn't mean the 3 employers isn't symptomatic of the legal employment situation in the region, ITE, because it probably is. I can't imagine things are that much better for the average student at WSU, MSU , or UDM, or most of the OH schools ITE.

And yeah, 3.9/179 can probably get a full ride at T14 or into HYS. No reason whatsoever to go t2/3/4. Yeah, HYS do have the best LRAPs. Don't know the specifics on H and S, buy Y's is by far the most liberal and comprehensive I've ever seen.

I was just trolling

I would like to note that I received a message from MSU Law today telling me that applications to the school are up 25% this year, and this 3 times greater than the national average rise in applications. Take that for what it is worth, but this is one metric that USNWR does look at when ranking law schools.

Taken with the news during last semester that MSU Law had the highest Bar passage rate for first time Bar-takers of any school that has significant amount of students taking the Bar in Michigan (Better than U of M), I think this is a positive trend. I don't find these things to be highly significant, but once again, they are small things that help boost the ranking of the school in USNWR.