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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Last edited by akowis on Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:57 pm 
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kurama20 wrote:
LePingoSantamarinero wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
regulator wrote:
i think for business schools, northwestern is generally as highly ranked (or higher) than chicago (booth). for law school, i don't think the 2 schools are close at all.

interestingly, the converse is true for NY business schools. columbia is generally thought to be a notch or two ahead of NYU business school (although the 2 law schools are pretty close rankings wise)


It's because Kellogg is more of a marketing consulting school whereas Booth is heavily quantitative and has the second best finance program in the country.


this is not correct.


This is incorrect.


False


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:59 pm 
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imchuckbass58 wrote:
LePingoSantamarinero wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
regulator wrote:
i think for business schools, northwestern is generally as highly ranked (or higher) than chicago (booth). for law school, i don't think the 2 schools are close at all.

interestingly, the converse is true for NY business schools. columbia is generally thought to be a notch or two ahead of NYU business school (although the 2 law schools are pretty close rankings wise)


It's because Kellogg is more of a marketing consulting school whereas Booth is heavily quantitative and has the second best finance program in the country.


this is not correct.


That's actually absolutely correct.


Not to get into a long pointless 30 page argument---but Booth is known for having the best finance program after Wharton. That's so widely known that it isn't really debateable. It's akin to how everyone knows that Stanford law is the best IP school or that Yale law is the best for academia. And Kellogg is defintely more focused on marketing and "team building" than some of the other top B-schools are---especially Booth. Consulting firms love Kellogg because they tend to produce students with better team and soft skills than the other schools. Booth is a very rigourous and quantitative school, it's also more academic for a business school. LOL I just realized that I quoted the wrong post in my original! I think we both had a slight misunderstanding I meant to quote the following post originally!

Quote:
This is an interesting thread. I have a group of friends in consulting that are planning on going to B school and every single one of them is hoping to go to Kellogg over Booth. I'm not sure why this is the case considering they are both ranked highly


Last edited by kurama20 on Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:00 am 
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VoidSix wrote:
It should be noted that Northwestern actually has fairly low peer rankings. Chicago destroys it, and it is lower than any of the T14 (the closest is Georgetown) and Northwestern is tied with UCLA (although the bar rep for NU is significantly higher). NU is only up in the rankings because of their expenditures which are higher than anyone's outside the Top-5.

In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


Chicago is up there with Yale. Even with everything equal, don't automatically go for Yale.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:02 am 
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this is not correct.[/quote]

That's actually absolutely correct.[/quote]

Not to get into a long pointless 30 page argument---but Booth is known for having the best finance program after Wharton. That's so widely known that it isn't really debateable. It's akin to how everyone knows that Stanford law is the best IP school or that Yale law is the best for academia. And Kellogg is defintely more focused on marketing and "team building" than some of the other top B-schools are---especially Booth. Consulting firms love Kellogg because they tend to produce students with better team and soft skills than the other schools. Booth is a very rigourous and quantitative school, it's also more academic for a business school. LOL I just realized that I quoted the wrong post in my original! I think we both had a slight misunderstanding I meant to quote the following post originally![/quote]

Kellogg is excellent for marketing. Better than HBS, IMO. Wait, isn't this a LAW school forum?


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:10 am 
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I visited both for ASW last year and job placement-wise, found UChicago to be aggressively career-focused while Northwestern was more laid back. NU stressed what a good experience attending the school would be, the nice area, study abroad, etc. There was also a very strong corporate bent. UChicago was a lot more academic, and reiterated over and over the success of its graduates and the eagerness of firms to hire UChicago grads. Their career services office absolutely had their shit together; NU's seemed to be wandering around in the forest a bit. It wasn't a difficult decision, regardless of the campuses.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:11 am 
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rayiner wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:
steakandeggs wrote:
University of Chicago may have more of a history but I say Northwestern is going to move up in the future.


Just out of curiosity, who do you see moving down then? I think Penn is a little overrated (but still probably better than NW), and maybe Boalt will move back out of the T10 like it had been up until a few years ago, but I just can't see NW getting any higher than the 10/11 spot it shares with Duke...


If any of the current T10 drop out, it'll be Michigan. They have a fat endowment and a strong peer-rep, but the latter keeps decreasing every year. They can't count on an Ivy rep like Penn nor are they in a highly desirable state like Virginia or Berkeley.


Michigan still has the best rep of MVPB today, doesn't it? That would mean it has to fall below 4 other schools to drop out of the T10. Northwestern would also have to hold off Duke, which currently has the best rep/placement among DNCG.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:18 am 
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VoidSix wrote:
It should be noted that Northwestern actually has fairly low peer rankings. Chicago destroys it, and it is lower than any of the T14 (the closest is Georgetown) and Northwestern is tied with UCLA (although the bar rep for NU is significantly higher). NU is only up in the rankings because of their expenditures which are higher than anyone's outside the Top-5.

In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


This actually fascinates me. You say UoC's peer rating is amazingly low considering its ranking. Do you think this has to do with the current unpopularity for freshwater economist ideals that typify UoC's academic flavor? Maybe the peer ranking has an undue backlash at the moment that doesn't really signify its actual prestige?


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:25 am 
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Z3RO wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
It should be noted that Northwestern actually has fairly low peer rankings. Chicago destroys it, and it is lower than any of the T14 (the closest is Georgetown) and Northwestern is tied with UCLA (although the bar rep for NU is significantly higher). NU is only up in the rankings because of their expenditures which are higher than anyone's outside the Top-5.

In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


This actually fascinates me. You say UoC's peer rating is amazingly low considering its ranking. Do you think this has to do with the current unpopularity for freshwater economist ideals that typify UoC's academic flavor? Maybe the peer ranking has an undue backlash at the moment that doesn't really signify its actual prestige?


Well, I was referring to Northwestern's peer rating being very low for it's ranking. Chicago's is actually slightly high for it's ranking (higher than NYU and Berkeley, for example).

However, you'd be amazed at how similarly ranked the schools are in every category except expenditures. The z-scores for Yale's expenditures, for instance, more than double every school except Harvard and Stanford. Aside from expenditures and financial aid per student, Yale really isn't any better than Harvard in any regard (that includes peer and bar reps) and Harvard actually has a higher bar passage rate, I believe. Stanford also outpaces Yale in bar passage rates, as well as in employment rates at graduation.

Here is a link to the source: http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/07/z ... n-law.html.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:30 am 
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VoidSix wrote:
Z3RO wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
It should be noted that Northwestern actually has fairly low peer rankings. Chicago destroys it, and it is lower than any of the T14 (the closest is Georgetown) and Northwestern is tied with UCLA (although the bar rep for NU is significantly higher). NU is only up in the rankings because of their expenditures which are higher than anyone's outside the Top-5.

In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


This actually fascinates me. You say UoC's peer rating is amazingly low considering its ranking. Do you think this has to do with the current unpopularity for freshwater economist ideals that typify UoC's academic flavor? Maybe the peer ranking has an undue backlash at the moment that doesn't really signify its actual prestige?


Well, I was referring to Northwestern's peer rating being very low for it's ranking. Chicago's is actually slightly high for it's ranking (higher than NYU and Berkeley, for example).

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for clearing that up. UoC is one of my absolute top choices and pending my own research, I was horrified to learn that they had a bad peer rep.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:55 am 
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Z3RO wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
Z3RO wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
It should be noted that Northwestern actually has fairly low peer rankings. Chicago destroys it, and it is lower than any of the T14 (the closest is Georgetown) and Northwestern is tied with UCLA (although the bar rep for NU is significantly higher). NU is only up in the rankings because of their expenditures which are higher than anyone's outside the Top-5.

In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


This actually fascinates me. You say UoC's peer rating is amazingly low considering its ranking. Do you think this has to do with the current unpopularity for freshwater economist ideals that typify UoC's academic flavor? Maybe the peer ranking has an undue backlash at the moment that doesn't really signify its actual prestige?


Well, I was referring to Northwestern's peer rating being very low for it's ranking. Chicago's is actually slightly high for it's ranking (higher than NYU and Berkeley, for example).

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for clearing that up. UoC is one of my absolute top choices and pending my own research, I was horrified to learn that they had a bad peer rep.


Who cares about peer rep? It's all about the ability to get a job upon graduation. Oh, and also (I guess) the ability to actually do that job (well).


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:56 am 
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cranberry wrote:
I visited both for ASW last year and job placement-wise, found UChicago to be aggressively career-focused while Northwestern was more laid back. NU stressed what a good experience attending the school would be, the nice area, study abroad, etc. There was also a very strong corporate bent. UChicago was a lot more academic, and reiterated over and over the success of its graduates and the eagerness of firms to hire UChicago grads. Their career services office absolutely had their shit together; NU's seemed to be wandering around in the forest a bit. It wasn't a difficult decision, regardless of the campuses.


Great insight, thanks. If one really wants to go into corporate law, then, would NU be the better choice?


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:37 am 
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im_blue wrote:
rayiner wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:
steakandeggs wrote:
University of Chicago may have more of a history but I say Northwestern is going to move up in the future.


Just out of curiosity, who do you see moving down then? I think Penn is a little overrated (but still probably better than NW), and maybe Boalt will move back out of the T10 like it had been up until a few years ago, but I just can't see NW getting any higher than the 10/11 spot it shares with Duke...


If any of the current T10 drop out, it'll be Michigan. They have a fat endowment and a strong peer-rep, but the latter keeps decreasing every year. They can't count on an Ivy rep like Penn nor are they in a highly desirable state like Virginia or Berkeley.


Michigan still has the best rep of MVPB today, doesn't it? That would mean it has to fall below 4 other schools to drop out of the T10. Northwestern would also have to hold off Duke, which currently has the best rep/placement among DNCG.


Michigan's peer rep doesn't have to fall behind MVPB, it just has to drop enough so that it can no longer compensate for their medians (lower than VPDN this year), etc. And that peer rep score has been decreasing every year since the inception of the rankings. Not saying it's gonna happen soon, but Michigan has the weakest position of MVPB.

As for Duke, it's certainly possible that they'll move back into the T10 like they were in the 1990s, but the trend doesn't seem to be going that way. They have a couple of disadvantages --- a relatively smaller endowment making it harder to throw money around at top students/attract top professors, and a less marketable location.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:54 am 
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It's not out of the realm of possibility that Michigan could be 12th in the next rankings. If they're ranked any better than 10th, I will be very surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:21 am 
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thinkbig wrote:

Great insight, thanks. If one really wants to go into corporate law, then, would NU be the better choice?



On the contrary, I think UChicago would be better despite their academic focus because there is so much competition for biglaw jobs and UChicago places better. Honestly though, I'm no authority on this at all. I think if you wanted to go corporate law there are classes you could take at UChicago in that field.

If I was interested in a JD for a non-legal career or something like social posterity, I would probably have picked NU. I chose my undergrad based on where I thought I'd have the best time outside of school and that worked out well for me (NYC over Ithaca), but I didn't think that was the best decision to make when choosing a law school.

The other big factor between these two is cost of attendance... in general NU costs a lot more than UChicago. It's in a much more expensive area and tuition is higher.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:22 pm 
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As far as corporate law is concerned, the distinctions between the T14 are significantly less important than for clerkships, academia, and PI. You can land BigLaw gigs from every T14, but the same can't be said about some other jobs.

That said, there are still small differences, and UChicago has the slight edge against NU. But if you are positive you want to do corporate law, I would encourage you to make a decision that takes your own personal factors into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:26 pm 
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VoidSix wrote:
As far as corporate law is concerned, the distinctions between the T14 are significantly less important than for clerkships, academia, and PI. You can land BigLaw gigs from every T14, but the same can't be said about some other jobs.

That said, there are still small differences, and UChicago has the slight edge against NU. But if you are positive you want to do corporate law, I would encourage you to make a decision that takes your own personal factors into consideration.

The early reports on OCI this year would seem to indicate that there may be a much wider gap among the different T14s ITE than there was in the past. However, it is all more or less speculation at this point. Also, I'm not sure specifically about NU or Chicago this year.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:23 pm 
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hamsterhiatus wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
In other words, Chicago is a much better school than Northwestern in my opinion. I wouldn't consider it with a 172 / 3.6--definitely would go to MVP or Cornell or Duke instead.


Ditto. News on the front is that Northwestern's OCI was more brutal than Chicago's... we'll see when info is released though.

Honestly though, the rankings are stupid - from what I have heard Chicago's OCI was better than NYU's and much better than Berkeley's, despite what the rankings say. (And fyi, supposedly some of the employers that were sent to recruit at OCI didn't even look at the rankings in the past 10 years so I doubt they are aware of Northwestern's T10 position and Chicago's supposed "decline" in the rankings. One employer actually asked my friend what Chicago was ranked because they said they hadn't looked at rankings since they chose what law school to attend.) Despite what people on TLS say, some employers don't actually look at the annual rankings. (zomg really?)

This OCI will change a lot of things. One thing being - I think that Berkeley's OCI was way more fucked than Chicago and Columbia's, and Chicago will go back up.


So Chicago is better than NYU too? I'd have no trouble whatsoever choosing NYU over Chicago, but that preference is informed largely by the rankings and the assumption that higher rank --> better opportunities.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Chicago is pretty much better than any schools except HYS. Historically, Yale and Chicago dominated everything throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Chicago has been ranked as high as second, places better into academia and clerkships than NYU and Columbia, has a stronger faculty than almost anywhere, etc.

In the TLS interview with Brian Leiter, he basically says Chicago has only slipped in the rankings because they were miscalculating their expenditures, and that problem should be solved this year. Who knows if that will actually happen.

But Blazers--I would say Chicago is definitely a little better than NYU, and at least on par with Columbia if not better. Still, I would rather attend Columbia or NYU than Chicago personally.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:50 pm 
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VoidSix wrote:
Chicago is pretty much better than any schools except HYS. Historically, Yale and Chicago dominated everything throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Chicago has been ranked as high as second, places better into academia and clerkships than NYU and Columbia, has a stronger faculty than almost anywhere, etc.

In the TLS interview with Brian Leiter, he basically says Chicago has only slipped in the rankings because they were miscalculating their expenditures, and that problem should be solved this year. Who knows if that will actually happen.

But Blazers--I would say Chicago is definitely a little better than NYU, and at least on par with Columbia if not better. Still, I would rather attend Columbia or NYU than Chicago personally.

I'm with you there. I visited Chicago, and I actually fell in love with it (believe it or not).

The LRAP at Columbia is so much better than Chicago that, all things equal, Columbia is a less risky option.


Last edited by Z3RO on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:52 pm 
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Yeah. Chicago is not a feasible option for PI people like me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:34 pm 
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Chicago better than Columbia? :?

Columbia has substantially better numbers and is substantially more selective. Columbia places better into biglaw, even considering Chicago's size advantage.

Chicago is better in academia/clerkships, but that's because professors doing hiring went to LS decades ago when Chicago was hot-shit.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:14 pm 
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rayiner wrote:
Chicago better than Columbia? :?

Columbia has substantially better numbers and is substantially more selective. Columbia places better into biglaw, even considering Chicago's size advantage.

Chicago is better in academia/clerkships, but that's because professors doing hiring went to LS decades ago when Chicago was hot-shit.


If by substantially better numbers you mean a substantially better LSAT range then yes. If you mean substantially better placement into firms and clerkships then no. Columbia and Chicago are about as equivalent as two schools can get---with the exception of Chicago being a stronger in clerkships and CLS being marginally stronger in big law. Even in that regard both situations can easily be explained by self selection. CLS grads tend to prefer to skip clerkships and head to biglaw---the opposite is true of Chicago. Like Voidsix said the only schools stronger than Chicago are HYS---Columbia is equivalent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:58 pm 
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As usual, thanks for all the input, everyone. When I get into conversations like this, I almost always start to second-guess my preferences with regard to the schools I am considering. Put my mind at ease; whether I end up at Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, or Northwestern, if I work my butt off, I'll have a realistic opportunity to pursue biglaw or clerkships or public interest.... right?

When I hear things like "Chicago is better for clerkships than anyone but HYS" I start thinking "wow I should reconsider my goal of going into a clerkship from NYU." Ultimately, I just don't want to close any doors simply by virtue of the school I select.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chicago Schools
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:45 pm 
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kurama20 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Chicago better than Columbia? :?

Columbia has substantially better numbers and is substantially more selective. Columbia places better into biglaw, even considering Chicago's size advantage.

Chicago is better in academia/clerkships, but that's because professors doing hiring went to LS decades ago when Chicago was hot-shit.


If by substantially better numbers you mean a substantially better LSAT range then yes. If you mean substantially better placement into firms and clerkships then no. Columbia and Chicago are about as equivalent as two schools can get---with the exception of Chicago being a stronger in clerkships and CLS being marginally stronger in big law. Even in that regard both situations can easily be explained by self selection. CLS grads tend to prefer to skip clerkships and head to biglaw---the opposite is true of Chicago. Like Voidsix said the only schools stronger than Chicago are HYS---Columbia is equivalent.


CLS has better student numbers, and manages while fielding a class nearly twice as large. It also has a significant edge in V10 placement, again while graduating a class nearly twice as large.


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