T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

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amadeus.vc
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T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby amadeus.vc » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:53 pm

Hi, can anyone think of the key advantages of getting into a T5 school? With my numbers, getting into a T14 school shouldn't be a big problem, but I am just mulling over whether there are certain irreplaceable advantages for going to a T5 school than say, settling for a T14 school.

My interest would be to work in private practice, and to work overseas.

So I guess the bottom line is, would there be jobs that would be exclusively for someone who went to Harvard/Columbia as opposed to Chicago, UVA, or Cornell?

Many thanks!

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im_blue
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby im_blue » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:09 pm

FYI, the T6 includes Chicago. If there were a T5, NYU would be out.

markakis
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby markakis » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:14 pm

im_blue wrote:FYI, the T6 includes Chicago. If there were a T5, NYU would be out.


How does this answer the Op's question?

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vanwinkle
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:16 pm

Advantages:

1) International work. "Harvard" and "Yale" are names recognized overseas; "Michigan" is not.

2) Clerkships and academia.

3) Getting your former classmate to hire you after they're elected President.

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stompasaurus
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby stompasaurus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:18 pm

T3 makes a difference in most things. T6-ish makes a difference in clerkships and academia, to an extent, and probably some difference in Biglaw. But unless you want academia, or something very prestige-heavy (like the ACLU, DOJ, etc), the difference will be small. I would pay sticker at T3 over any other school, but would consider a lower T14 scholarship over sticker at CCN.

showNprove
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby showNprove » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:28 pm

Generally speaking:

If you get into Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, go there over the lower-ranked schools.

If you get into Columbia, and you want to go into biglaw, go there over the lower ranked schools.

If you get into Chicago, and you want to go into academia or get a clerkship, go there over NYU and the lower ranked schools.

If you get into NYU, and you want to go into be in NYC, go there over the lower ranked schools.


Otherwise, the differences between CCN and Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, Penn, Duke, and Northwestern are relatively small. In many cases, these lower-ranked schools might actually be an advantage over some of the T6 depending on what you want to do or where you want to be.


Of course, scholarships may change these calculations. A lot of people go to Harvard with no scholarship instead of Columbia with full a tuition scholarship, which I'm not sure I would do.

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Drew2010
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby Drew2010 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:31 pm

stompasaurus wrote:T3 makes a difference in most things. T6-ish makes a difference in clerkships and academia, to an extent, and probably some difference in Biglaw. But unless you want academia, or something very prestige-heavy (like the ACLU, DOJ, etc), the difference will be small. I would pay sticker at T3 over any other school, but would consider a lower T14 scholarship over sticker at CCN.


This is a really good answer.


im_blue wrote:FYI, the T6 includes Chicago. If there were a T5, NYU would be out.


In the magical "im_blue" rankings?

Based on Leiter's recent faculty rankings I struggle to see how people are so quick to place NYU beneath Chicago, or even Columbia. NYU has an excellent faculty, outranking Chicago in 3/4 categories, and Columbia in all 4. Personal preference plays a pretty big role in where to place CCN in relation to one another.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... polls.html

Not trying to say NYU is better than both Columbia and Chicago, just that ranking them is a more difficult question than people make it out to be.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:05 pm

showNprove wrote:A lot of people go to Harvard with no scholarship instead of Columbia with full a tuition scholarship, which I'm not sure I would do.


Harvard w/ no scholarship > Columbia w/ full ride. I mean saying you went to Harvard Law is worth the tuition right there, and you're pretty entitled a biglaw job going to Harvard so the debt really shouldn't be much of an issue.

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soullesswonder
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby soullesswonder » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:25 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
showNprove wrote:A lot of people go to Harvard with no scholarship instead of Columbia with full a tuition scholarship, which I'm not sure I would do.


Harvard w/ no scholarship > Columbia w/ full ride. I mean saying you went to Harvard Law is worth the tuition right there, and you're pretty entitled a biglaw job going to Harvard so the debt really shouldn't be much of an issue.


The only reason I could think to take Harvard in that situation is if you were convinced you were Elect material. I don't think the difference in job prospects is nearly enough to justify passing on 160k+

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kurama20
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby kurama20 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:30 pm

Drew2010 wrote:
stompasaurus wrote:T3 makes a difference in most things. T6-ish makes a difference in clerkships and academia, to an extent, and probably some difference in Biglaw. But unless you want academia, or something very prestige-heavy (like the ACLU, DOJ, etc), the difference will be small. I would pay sticker at T3 over any other school, but would consider a lower T14 scholarship over sticker at CCN.


This is a really good answer.


im_blue wrote:FYI, the T6 includes Chicago. If there were a T5, NYU would be out.


In the magical "im_blue" rankings?

Based on Leiter's recent faculty rankings I struggle to see how people are so quick to place NYU beneath Chicago, or even Columbia. NYU has an excellent faculty, outranking Chicago in 3/4 categories, and Columbia in all 4. Personal preference plays a pretty big role in where to place CCN in relation to one another.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... polls.html

Not trying to say NYU is better than both Columbia and Chicago, just that ranking them is a more difficult question than people make it out to be.


The reason that a lot of people do that is because faculty quality is often the least of most prospective students concerns---getting a job is usually priority number one. What the poster said about the differences being marginal hit the nail on the head--but if you are forced into ranking the schools by prestige and legal employers view of the school, Columbia and Chicago would be slightly ahead of NYU. The really significant differences don't seem to pop up until you are talking about the gap between HYS and the other top schools though.

jocelyne
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby jocelyne » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:01 am

.
Last edited by jocelyne on Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flcath
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:24 am

To more fully address the OP's question, there is a huge difference between CCN and the 10-14. I doubt the national portability of the latter (esp. 13 & 14) ITE. Full disclosure: I am not a contender for CCN.

All that having been said, if you don't get into a T6 (which appears to be your worry), then the relative merits of a T6 are somewhat irrelevant. I mean, hell, there's *always* something better out there (CCN gets trumped by HLS, HLS gets trumped by YLS, YLS gets trumped by medical school, etc). Go with the best deal (rep + $$$) that's made available to you.

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Jumbo
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby Jumbo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:30 am

Harvard w/ no scholarship > Columbia w/ full ride. I mean saying you went to Harvard Law is worth the tuition right there, and you're pretty entitled a biglaw job going to Harvard so the debt really shouldn't be much of an issue.

More stupid TLS 0L assumptions...

Harvard=Columbia in the eyes of most biglaw hiring partners. Talk to someone with biglaw experience if you don't believe me.

If you get into Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, go there over the lower-ranked schools.

If you get into Columbia, and you want to go into biglaw, go there over the lower ranked schools.

Columbia>Stanford for east coast placement, especially for those who finish below median.

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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby BeastCoastHype » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:10 pm

Jumbo wrote:
Harvard w/ no scholarship > Columbia w/ full ride. I mean saying you went to Harvard Law is worth the tuition right there, and you're pretty entitled a biglaw job going to Harvard so the debt really shouldn't be much of an issue.

More stupid TLS 0L assumptions...

Harvard=Columbia in the eyes of most biglaw hiring partners. Talk to someone with biglaw experience if you don't believe me.

If you get into Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, go there over the lower-ranked schools.

If you get into Columbia, and you want to go into biglaw, go there over the lower ranked schools.

Columbia>Stanford for east coast placement, especially for those who finish below median.


Credited. If you are sure you want biglaw, choosing to pay for Harvard over a full ride at Columbia might be a good indicator that you've suffered some kind of traumatic brain injury. Can you explain to me exactly why being able to say you went to Harvard Law is worth $200,000 in debt in a bad economy, especially when your other option is COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL for FREE? The CLS name carries a ton of weight as well, and I'd rather be living large and bragging about my Columbia degree than paying debt for some very minor edge in name recognition. FYI, Columbia has more living members of the Forbes 400 than any other law school.

Even if you don't want biglaw I don't think it's worth it. For the most part people at the two schools end up with identical jobs. The 2% who get something super special from Harvard because of the name might have some benefit that's worth it, but chances are very high that most posters on this site will not be among those for whom it actually holds tangible additional value. ACLU, government, and other nonprofit jobs are abundant for grads of either.

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kurama20
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:42 pm

flcath wrote:To more fully address the OP's question, there is a huge difference between CCN and the 10-14. I doubt the national portability of the latter (esp. 13 & 14) ITE. Full disclosure: I am not a contender for CCN.

All that having been said, if you don't get into a T6 (which appears to be your worry), then the relative merits of a T6 are somewhat irrelevant. I mean, hell, there's *always* something better out there (CCN gets trumped by HLS, HLS gets trumped by YLS, YLS gets trumped by medical school, etc). Go with the best deal (rep + $$$) that's made available to you.



Uh no. There is definitely not a huge difference between even CC and MBVP, let alone NYU and MBVP. The difference between CC and MBVP is significant but I wouldn't call it HUGE. The difference between NYU and MBVP is insignificant for those not interested in NYC . Huge would be the gap between HYS and DNGC.


Credited. If you are sure you want biglaw, choosing to pay for Harvard over a full ride at Columbia might be a good indicator that you've suffered some kind of traumatic brain injury. Can you explain to me exactly why being able to say you went to Harvard Law is worth $200,000 in debt in a bad economy, especially when your other option is COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL for FREE? The CLS name carries a ton of weight as well, and I'd rather be living large and bragging about my Columbia degree than paying debt for some very minor edge in name recognition. FYI, Columbia has more living members of the Forbes 400 than any other law school.


This is true, going to Columbia for free does balance out the strength of HYS. I think the only area where one might regret it is clerkships. For whatever reason HYS (especially HY) blow Columbia out of the water when it comes to clerkships. Still going there for free would be enough to balance it out for me.

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dresden doll
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:35 pm

Is there a particular reason OP's using the T5 as opposed to T6 designation? I wasn't aware there was really such a thing as 'T5.' Either way, it'd be helpful to know which of the CCN (s)he's leaving out.

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kurama20
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:48 pm

dresden doll wrote:Is there a particular reason OP's using the T5 as opposed to T6 designation? I wasn't aware there was really such a thing as 'T5.' Either way, it'd be helpful to know which of the CCN (s)he's leaving out.


Probably Chicago. A lot of the uniformed think Chicago is along with Boalt Mich etc.

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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby motloe » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:20 pm

kurama20 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Is there a particular reason OP's using the T5 as opposed to T6 designation? I wasn't aware there was really such a thing as 'T5.' Either way, it'd be helpful to know which of the CCN (s)he's leaving out.


Probably Chicago. A lot of the uniformed think Chicago is along with Boalt Mich etc.

where does georgetown rate in all of this?

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Jumbo
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby Jumbo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:29 pm

Uh no. There is definitely not a huge difference between even CC and MBVP, let alone NYU and MBVP. The difference between CC and MBVP is significant but I wouldn't call it HUGE. The difference between NYU and MBVP is insignificant for those not interested in NYC . Huge would be the gap between HYS and DNGC.

Real world placement(biglaw or clerkship) is not determined by USNews. The dominant TLS concept of HYS>CCN>MBVP>DNGC is not very accurate.

If I had to roughly guess based on the information obtained from the biglaw lawyers I've talked to, it goes something like this:
1. YHSC
2. CNP
3. MVBDNC
4. G

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babaghanouj
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby babaghanouj » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:29 pm

kurama20 wrote:
flcath wrote:To more fully address the OP's question, there is a huge difference between CCN and the 10-14. I doubt the national portability of the latter (esp. 13 & 14) ITE. Full disclosure: I am not a contender for CCN.


Uh no. There is definitely not a huge difference between even CC and MBVP, let alone NYU and MBVP. The difference between CC and MBVP is significant but I wouldn't call it HUGE. The difference between NYU and MBVP is insignificant for those not interested in NYC . Huge would be the gap between HYS and DNGC.

I think s/he was referring to DCNG...don't freak out.

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kurama20
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:34 pm

Jumbo wrote:
Uh no. There is definitely not a huge difference between even CC and MBVP, let alone NYU and MBVP. The difference between CC and MBVP is significant but I wouldn't call it HUGE. The difference between NYU and MBVP is insignificant for those not interested in NYC . Huge would be the gap between HYS and DNGC.

Real world placement(biglaw or clerkship) is not determined by USNews. The dominant TLS concept of HYS>CCN>MBVP>DNGC is not very accurate.

If I had to roughly guess based on the information obtained from the biglaw lawyers I've talked to, it goes something like this:
1. YHSC
2. CNP
3. MVBDNC
4. G


Believe me I know that US News isn't completely on point for placement. But your number 2 grouping section lets me know that you are talking about NYC when you say biglaw. If you go nationwide it would look more like this.


edit Your avatar cracks me up. I can't figure out whether it's in jest or serious! :lol:
1. HYS
2. CC
3.NMBVp
4.NG
5.C
Last edited by kurama20 on Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:36 pm

kurama20 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Is there a particular reason OP's using the T5 as opposed to T6 designation? I wasn't aware there was really such a thing as 'T5.' Either way, it'd be helpful to know which of the CCN (s)he's leaving out.


Probably Chicago. A lot of the uniformed think Chicago is along with Boalt Mich etc.


I don't think TLS is really lacking in love for Chicago, but you're probably right. Just seems a ridiculous cut-off. I wouldn't think there are gigantic (or really any) differentials within the CCN triumvirate.

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Jumbo
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby Jumbo » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:36 pm

kurama20 wrote:Belive me I know that US News isn't completely on point for placement. But your number 2 grouping section lets me know that you are talking about NYC when you say biglaw. If you go nationwide it would look more like this.

1. HYS
2. CC
3.NMBVp
4.G
5.C

I've talked to biglaw lawyers in Boston and NYC. Again it was a rough estimate. There are many, many factors that go into placement, and it's impossible to accurately put schools in "groups".

Eg. Top of Yale=Top of Columbia, but Bottom of Yale>Bottom of Columbia, S>CCN in west coast, C>S=CN in NYC, etc.
Last edited by Jumbo on Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kurama20
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:40 pm

dresden doll wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Is there a particular reason OP's using the T5 as opposed to T6 designation? I wasn't aware there was really such a thing as 'T5.' Either way, it'd be helpful to know which of the CCN (s)he's leaving out.


Probably Chicago. A lot of the uniformed think Chicago is along with Boalt Mich etc.


I don't think TLS is really lacking in love for Chicago, but you're probably right. Just seems a ridiculous cut-off. I wouldn't think there are gigantic (or really any) differentials within the CCN triumvirate.


I don't know I see a lot of people on here saying Chicago is a "mid" or "lower" top 14 along with Penn. The only harsh cutoff that really makes sense is top 3 and Cornell GULC. [b]After that it just starts relying too much on where and what you are interested in (and really Stanford is pushing it. For example Stanford is not hands down better than Columbia for NYC biglaw).

I've talked to biglaw lawyers in Boston and NYC. Again it was a rough estimate. There are many, many factors that go into placement, and it's [/b]impossible[/b] to accurately put schools in "groups".

Eg. Top of Yale=Top of Columbia, but Bottom of Yale>Bottom of Columbia, S>CCN in west coast, C>S=CN in NYC etc.


Agreed, and I allude to this in the bolded.

02082010
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Re: T5 vs. T14? key advantages?

Postby 02082010 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:44 pm

Ran here.




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