Why?

This is decision I might have to make, and I can't decide. Are we assuming a T30 with a regional rep you like? There are plenty of T30s I don't want to go to because of their location.

My mindset personally right now is:
Will strongly consider sticker at CCN
Will consider sticker at MVPB
Will attend lower T14 only with money (would rather attend UT/UCLA/Vandy with money as oppossed to sticker for DCNG)

If it was a choice between ND/Emory/GW/Fordham/WUSTL/BU etc or GULC/Cornell, i might go with the money. For other schools in the T14 I would consider sticker.

Yes

ITE has me scared. I've been toying with the idea of applying to WUSTL and UIUC for Chicago market. Then the market collapsed and the firms dropped right out of UIUC OCI, and I can't imagine WUSTL fared much better, considering they literally said they only went to UoC, NU, and Michigan this year.

Follow the money if you want. I'm following the jobs.

No. Lets use UIUC , northwester, and U of Chicago as examples using total cost of attendence.

U of C sticker: 65K *3 = 195K

Northwestern sticker: 69K *2 = 207K

UIUC at half tuition instate: 35*3= 105K

A 105K bet that you get top 10%, or a 200K that you get top 50%? In poker would you go in with a half your pot with a crappy hand, or all in with a good hand?

If you are looking for big law from UIUC ITE you need top 10% and even that is hard. U of C over UIUC is a no brainer, Northwestern less so. But from what I hear NU 2L's are still getting offers above median.

Worst case scenario I end up having the join the air force to get IBR loan relief, and by worst case I mean worst case imaginable.

Personally, I'd take the money. (exception: H/Y/S)

My reasoning:

- Less debt lets you sleep at night.
- Less debt offers you much more flexibility in accepting a lower paying job when you graduate.
- The economy is not 'coming back' for years (my opinion), prepare to be unemployed for awhile, even from a T14.
- Some regional schools offer as good employment opportunity in local markets as T14's will in major cities (but at less pay).
- Big law is re-structuring, much tougher to get these days, and it will not come back to where it once was (my opinion).
- Big law, even if you get it, sucks as a lifestyle.

This is just my opinion, I've very debt adverse, and really only seek to make a decent living.
Others will think much differently and will advise you to "go for the gold" at any risk, cost, or sacrifice to lifestyle.

Good luck.

i love the way you put this.

Okay. Imagine the following scenario:

Tuition: $40,000/year
Living expenses: $20,000/year
Total costs per year: $60,000/year

If you get a "half-tuition" scholarship, you're expenses are reduced by $20,000 a year, and you're only paying $20,000 in tuition. But you're still paying about $20,000 a year on top of that in living expenses, so you're still borrowing $40,000/year.

So:
Total costs at T30 w/scholly: $40,000/year = $120,000 over 3 years
Total costs at T14 at sticker: $60,000/year = $180,000 over 3 years

Obviously "half-tuition" doesn't cut your total costs over those 3 years by half (unless there's a huge cost of living difference, like the T14 being in NYC and the T30 being in Nowhere, KS). It really only cuts it down by a third.

Now, what are your job opportunities with a T30? They're probably limited to the region you've moved to, and you're not going to be very portable outside of that. The T14, though, is going to give you national portability. The T14 degree could give you at least a chance at landing a job in NY, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas/Houston, and so on and so forth... With the T14, if you can't find a job in your preferred market, you still have a shot at finding a job somewhere.

Given that you're already borrowing over $100K either way, wouldn't you rather end up saddled with over $100k and have much greater chances of getting a job when you graduate, than end up saddled with over $100k and having little chance of finding a job outside of that school's primary market?

Or, to put it more succinctly:

-T14 students are going to be applying for those jobs in medium marks more often, who knows how those firms will handle that.

-Small firm life has almost as many hours for much less pay. Unless you mean government and PI jobs, in which case T14 grads still have a leg up, and with LRAPs and federal loan forgiveness their debt level doesn't mean shit.

If you are aiming for smaller firm work, then I'd hold out for full tuition. But half tuition and a t30 has the negatives of both, large (but not huge) debt, and very risky placement.

This should have been Sept's writing sample question.

I think the answer really depends on the circumstances, particularly the exact amount of $$$ involved. Some T30s, even at 1/2 tuition, can be very expensive (w/ living expenses, etc) and not worth the risk. When I applied last cycle, some of the schools that I thought fell into this category were BU, BC, Emory, and GW. All great schools, but I would much rather apply to/attend a less expensive public option with $$$ (like UGA, W&M, etc) with decent, if not comparable, regional placement.

Personally, I agree with a lot of what interestedbyestander said. I'm debt averse and don't trust (or really know) how the legal job market will change over the years to come. Going to a T14 is not a golden ticket to success like a lot of TLS posters seem to believe. Obviously, your odds of landing a higher paying, "biglaw" job are much better than at a lower ranked school. And, there are other opportunities at a T14 that are simply not available elsewhere, but I'm guessing there are plenty of students right now at these schools (who took on $150,000+ in loans) who don't have many (or any) job offers.

I'm definitely debt averse and understand how crippling it may be, but that will make me try even harder to land a decent job out of T14 (assuming I get in). I see 180K of debt as a mortgage, which kind of puts things into perspective. I really don't mind living dirt poor for the 1st 3-4 years out of law school if it means liquidating the school debt.

In the short run, yea it seems scary and a big risk. But in the long run, I see it as an investment in my future that has the potential to pay off tenfold.

My options:

T30: 15,000$ in-state/year (above both 75th%, scholly potential) (break into top 10%)

or

ED at T14: 40,000$/year (reverse splitter) (break into top 30% of class ITE)

With that said, I voted T14 at sticker.

if the T-30 is in a region you could see yourself living for a while (after LS), I would def consider it. However, if you do not enjoy that particular area, I would go T14 b/c you will recoup the incurred cost w/ salary and quality of life (you will have the ability to seek employment in an area you enjoy). But really, like most on this site, don't have the slightest fucking clue of what the right answer is (b/c there isnt one). Do your homework and place your gut feeling above anything TLSers say....Good Luck

I think there's more to this equation then you realize. One thing to look into (and carefully look into) is a school's LRAP program... I hate saying this because you shouldn't come here because it's the best "hedge" (as oppose to actually wanting to come to school here), but Michigan LRAP has loan forgiveness for all low paying law related jobs (i.e. not just public interest). There's more information about it on the website but the basic jist of it is the school pay's your loans for you each year if you make under a certain amount of money (i.e. it's not a lump sum forgiveness like IBR). I know Yale has a similar LRAP program (but better because it covers all loans if you make under $60K /year including a UG loans up to so much). I would imagine there are other schools in the t14 with similar programs and that is definitely worth considering.

Also, keep in mind most schools give scholly's with decently harsh GPA stipulation (usually at least top half of the class to keep the scholly -- many are even harsher) meaning you may very well be paying your last 2 years at full price at a t30.

Respectable T30s don't have any stipulations usually. GW/BU didn't have any, and WM only required to stay at a B or above average.

Does that mean they do have stipulations now?

Even if tuition stipulations aren't an issue, I still think OP would come out ahead going to a t14 with a decent LRAP program because if you want to work for a larger firm your odds are better, and if you don't make it into a larger firm then you will probably still end up paying less each year then you would paying back 50% at the t30 (and end up with a more repectable degree overall). Even if you don't want to work for a large firm it seems like you would come out ahead going to the better school because if you leave law school making $40K, then your repayment at, e.g., Michigan would $1,320 /year for 10 years (with forgiveness each year -- so your cumulative debt doesn't increase in size like it would with IBR). I really can't think of a situation where you would come out ahead at a t30 paying 50%.

I said T14 sticker BUT would consider going to a few T30 for half price. Especially if it were compared to the lower end of the T14. In the end though it all really depends on your own unique circumstances and more specifically, what T14 vs. what T30.

If you are debating Illinois half cost vs. Chicago or Northwestern sticker, it seems pretty logical to go with NW or Chi, especially if paying out of state for Illinois. However, if you are comparing Georgetown sticker to Texas or UCLA half price, it becomes a little more hazy and I would argue for going to UCLA or especially UT. But if it's Harvard sticker vs. Washington & Lee 1/2 price, the answer is very clear. It all depends on the circumstances involved.

I have no idea where this guy got his info but my scholarship from GW had a requirement that I maintain a 3.0 gpa. Granted this was still at an grade average that about 75% of the class maintains but there was a requirement there.

I'd pick a T30 if it is in the region you want to practice in. If you want to be in MA or boston, of course you'd take BC or BU over GULC, or hell, even Northwestern. The same kind of thought applies to almost every T-30. If you aren't prepared to lock into a region though, the T-14 gives you broader options.

I personally would Take UNC over Emory for the entire south east. I think they are essentially equal schools but the kicker goes to UNC for it's resident tuition. Now if Emory tossed in a little dough I would have to think about it.

Depends on the 2 schools and what you want.

GULC vs. UCLA if you want to be in LA is not that tough of a decision.

Mine had no stipulations. I guess they just wanted me more. BU still doesn't have stipulations.

This. A lot of people on this site seem to be gambling on the fact that in 3 years the law field will return to how it was 5 years ago. Not going to happen.



Also this. Without telling me what schools you are considering and what your desires are, I do not have enough info to vote.

You really need the specific schools and the OP's goals to offer decent advice.

That said, the issue really comes down to "Is an extra $60-70k in debt (assuming comparable COL), which is about $500/mo when you are repaying it, worth going to the higher ranked school?"