So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

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D. H2Oman
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:31 am

rando wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
USNWR is biased towards the following:

Northeastern, as opposed to southern, western or midwestern
Urban, as opposed to rural
Private, as opposed to public



hmm, while this is an interesting theory. Does this poster have anything to back up her statement. I am willing to consider what she is saying, but I need some data to back it up these arguments.


Methinks not. It is an interesting theory, but one that has alternative, and more compelling, arguments.

Northeastern, as opposed to southern, western or midwestern: Not only are the largest cities (i'll get to that) in the northeast, but the oldest (most prestigious) schools are in the northeast (bar UVA). Following U.S. history will show you that. It is unsurprising that the oldest schools with the most prestige, most money, most lay recall, largest alumni networks, are considered the best.

Urban, as opposed to rural: Jobs are in cities. Who wants to go recruit at a podunk school?

Private, as opposed to public: This is just the way the University system has run. Again, look at U.S. History. The oldest and most prestigious schools are private. When states started funding public schools, some of them achieve great recognition because states put a great deal of effort into subsidizing education. UVA, Mich, UCLA, Boalt, UT - all have tremendous resources (UC's used to) and very talented populations to pull from.



Yeah, you make great points. Let's see if Pdaddy can back up her arguments, or if she has a good response to you.

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ALgooner
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby ALgooner » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Sorry for bringing up a thread that is years old, but I am interested how/if anyone's opinions of Alabama has changed.

It is now #29, and its medians are pretty impressive. LSAT:165, GPA: 3.83

Earlier ITT people discussed how it would take a while before Bama's employment numbers matched its increasingly impressive student body. Does anyone have the most recent numbers for Bama? How do these stack up against its peer schools?

I'm interested because I went to UG at Bama, and was accepted there last year for law school. However, I decided to take a year off and retake the LSAT.

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cahwc12
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:29 pm

srkhalilian wrote:Sorry for bringing up a thread that is years old, but I am interested how/if anyone's opinions of Alabama has changed.

It is now #29, and its medians are pretty impressive. LSAT:165, GPA: 3.83

Earlier ITT people discussed how it would take a while before Bama's employment numbers matched its increasingly impressive student body. Does anyone have the most recent numbers for Bama? How do these stack up against its peer schools?

I'm interested because I went to UG at Bama, and was accepted there last year for law school. However, I decided to take a year off and retake the LSAT.


It's actually really sad reading these posts from 2009 talking about employment data that was so cropped and distorted from the actual truth :(.

Even now, for the last two years with access to something closer to real employment data, it's tough to see a clear picture.

That said, unless they are committing outright fraud, Alabama seems to outperform nearly every peer school outside the top 16 just about any way you want to slice it. The only obvious drawback is... who wants to practice in Alabama?

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ALgooner
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby ALgooner » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:25 pm

cahwc12 wrote: Alabama seems to outperform nearly every peer school outside the top 16 just about any way you want to slice it.


If this is true, then how can Bama be overrated as a top 30? I realize this question was asked years ago, and Bama has improved since then, but it seems as though it still gets little respect on TLS.

cahwc12 wrote: The only obvious drawback is... who wants to practice in Alabama?


Agreed. Was one of my main reasons for taking a year off and retaking.

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cahwc12
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:54 pm

srkhalilian wrote:
cahwc12 wrote: Alabama seems to outperform nearly every peer school outside the top 16 just about any way you want to slice it.


If this is true, then how can Bama be overrated as a top 30? I realize this question was asked years ago, and Bama has improved since then, but it seems as though it still gets little respect on TLS.

cahwc12 wrote: The only obvious drawback is... who wants to practice in Alabama?


Agreed. Was one of my main reasons for taking a year off and retaking.


I personally think it's underrated, which I base mostly (solely?) off the self-reported statistics that law schools report to the ABA and NALP. Tuition is a bargain relative to peer schools, placement is much better, and COL is cheap. The opportunity cost is living and practicing largely in Alabama, Georgia or Florida. I've honestly never been to Alabama--maybe it's a great place... I don't know from personal experience.

You have to remember too, this was a different ball-game just two years ago. ABA employment data only goes back to 2011. Before that, the only thing we have to go off of is what was released by schools. Alabama didn't release very much, and it's not hard to see why--when schools are reporting 98% employment with median salaries of $160,000, their numbers don't look nearly as good by comparison. However, now that everyone is required to release the same minimum of data, Alabama's seemingly modest numbers actually appear quite strong. (You can see all t he ABA data here: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/)

Real Madrid
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:27 pm

srkhalilian wrote:Sorry for bringing up a thread that is years old, but I am interested how/if anyone's opinions of Alabama has changed.

It is now #29, and its medians are pretty impressive. LSAT:165, GPA: 3.83

Earlier ITT people discussed how it would take a while before Bama's employment numbers matched its increasingly impressive student body. Does anyone have the most recent numbers for Bama? How do these stack up against its peer schools?

I'm interested because I went to UG at Bama, and was accepted there last year for law school. However, I decided to take a year off and retake the LSAT.


The numbers are basically a sham. Bama uses the Honors College program to get a bunch of students with high GPAs and no LSATs to go to law school, then gives scholarship money to people that actually do have high LSATs to balance out these inflated medians. If you look at their 25th LSAT (and probably GPA) numbers, you'll see that there is probably a big drop off.

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danquayle
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby danquayle » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:18 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
srkhalilian wrote:Sorry for bringing up a thread that is years old, but I am interested how/if anyone's opinions of Alabama has changed.

It is now #29, and its medians are pretty impressive. LSAT:165, GPA: 3.83

Earlier ITT people discussed how it would take a while before Bama's employment numbers matched its increasingly impressive student body. Does anyone have the most recent numbers for Bama? How do these stack up against its peer schools?

I'm interested because I went to UG at Bama, and was accepted there last year for law school. However, I decided to take a year off and retake the LSAT.


The numbers are basically a sham. Bama uses the Honors College program to get a bunch of students with high GPAs and no LSATs to go to law school, then gives scholarship money to people that actually do have high LSATs to balance out these inflated medians. If you look at their 25th LSAT (and probably GPA) numbers, you'll see that there is probably a big drop off.


Well, yeah. But perception is reality. Nothing too far off what most in the t-14 do.

BoGuaGua
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby BoGuaGua » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:04 pm

ranks don't matter, it's still a TTT, would been t-14 if they put in the same effort as they do with football

rad lulz
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Don't go unless you're from Bama or a neighboring state AND want to practice in Alabama. Who cares what it's ranked.

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ALgooner
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby ALgooner » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:19 am

Real Madrid wrote:
srkhalilian wrote:Sorry for bringing up a thread that is years old, but I am interested how/if anyone's opinions of Alabama has changed.

It is now #29, and its medians are pretty impressive. LSAT:165, GPA: 3.83

Earlier ITT people discussed how it would take a while before Bama's employment numbers matched its increasingly impressive student body. Does anyone have the most recent numbers for Bama? How do these stack up against its peer schools?

I'm interested because I went to UG at Bama, and was accepted there last year for law school. However, I decided to take a year off and retake the LSAT.


The numbers are basically a sham. Bama uses the Honors College program to get a bunch of students with high GPAs and no LSATs to go to law school, then gives scholarship money to people that actually do have high LSATs to balance out these inflated medians. If you look at their 25th LSAT (and probably GPA) numbers, you'll see that there is probably a big drop off.


Yup. Don't see how that makes them a sham.

BoGuaGua wrote:ranks don't matter, it's still a TTT, would been t-14 if they put in the same effort as they do with football


This is just pathetic.

rad lulz wrote:Who cares what it's ranked.


Lots of people. OP, for instance. And the many others ITT that were hurt that Bama was in the top 30.

Anways, I was just interested in getting people's opinions on Bama compared to its peer schools, not necessarily trying to defend their rank. Obviously its a regional school. But some regional schools are better than others, and Bama seems to me to be better than most. If you don't mind living in the Alabama, I think its a great choice.

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BruceWayne
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:39 am

With the current debt to likelihood of getting a big firm job ratio at the top 14 and schools just outside of it, schools like Bama are really the best option for those who don't pull HYS ITE. And as someone who has personal experience with the southeastern markets and how they view schools like Bama--going there for free or close to it is a better deal than going to most of the top 14 at sticker for someone looking to work in the southeast. The ranking that you have to pull at a top 14 vs. the one you'd have to pull at Bama for a shot at a big firm job in the southeast really isn't different enough (particularly when you consider the students you'd be competing with at the top 14) to justify going to the non HYS top 14 at sticker over Bama for free or close to it.

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togepi
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby togepi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:49 am

BruceWayne wrote:With the current debt to likelihood of getting a big firm job ratio at the top 14 and schools just outside of it, schools like Bama are really the best option for those who don't pull HYS ITE. And as someone who has personal experience with the southeastern markets and how they view schools like Bama--going there for free or close to it is a better deal than going to most of the top 14 at sticker for someone looking to work in the southeast. The ranking that you have to pull at a top 14 vs. the one you'd have to pull at Bama for a shot at a big firm job in the southeast really isn't different enough (particularly when you consider the students you'd be competing with at the top 14) to justify going to the non HYS top 14 at sticker over Bama for free or close to it.


From what I saw on law school numbers, they definitely have a ton of money to throw around. Was that just for last cycle, or do you think that they will continue to give full rides to splitters.

Informative
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby Informative » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:36 am

I don't see it anywhere near the top 30:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0918083537

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danquayle
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby danquayle » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:06 pm

Informative wrote:I don't see it anywhere near the top 30:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0918083537


Using this as are reference point the further down you go has always annoyed me, because the difference between 25 and 50 is 6%. So you're looking at 24 out of a top 200 making it to Big Law versus 12 out of 200. Neither provides great odds.

If Big Law placement were a definitive proxy for all placement, I'd feel more comfortable about using it as a de facto ranking. But I am not sure it is, given that many of the firms outside the NLJ 250 are hyper regional. What it does is demonstrate what we already know: it drops off quickly.

Edit: I don't disagree with anyone's points that rankings don't matter for schools like Alabama, or that Alabama is blatantly gaming the system. Rather, I think all schools game the system, even t-14's are competing against one another.

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danquayle
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby danquayle » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:48 pm

Just saw this:

--LinkRemoved--


Pretty impressive actually. Provided you're cool with staying in Alabama, of course. Higher than Wash U, Texas, USC/UCLA and on par with Vanderbilt. I have to imagine the salaries are a lot lower, but if you want to stay in Alabama, probably a very good option. That's more than a lot of similar states schools can.

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togepi
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby togepi » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:52 am

danquayle wrote:Just saw this:

--LinkRemoved--


Pretty impressive actually. Provided you're cool with staying in Alabama, of course. Higher than Wash U, Texas, USC/UCLA and on par with Vanderbilt. I have to imagine the salaries are a lot lower, but if you want to stay in Alabama, probably a very good option. That's more than a lot of similar states schools can.


Yeah, I went to middle, high school, and university at Auburn and so Alabama is definitely one of the options I'm looking at for this upcoming cycle. I don't mind at all staying Alabama. Plus cost of living is pretty low and cost of attendance is likely to be fairly low in state and with any scholarships they may throw.

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danquayle
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby danquayle » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:46 am

togepi wrote:
danquayle wrote:Just saw this:

--LinkRemoved--


Pretty impressive actually. Provided you're cool with staying in Alabama, of course. Higher than Wash U, Texas, USC/UCLA and on par with Vanderbilt. I have to imagine the salaries are a lot lower, but if you want to stay in Alabama, probably a very good option. That's more than a lot of similar states schools can.


Yeah, I went to middle, high school, and university at Auburn and so Alabama is definitely one of the options I'm looking at for this upcoming cycle. I don't mind at all staying Alabama. Plus cost of living is pretty low and cost of attendance is likely to be fairly low in state and with any scholarships they may throw.


Just don't go jogging on campus with that Auburn shirt.

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BruceWayne
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:54 am

togepi wrote:From what I saw on law school numbers, they definitely have a ton of money to throw around. Was that just for last cycle, or do you think that they will continue to give full rides to splitters.


Check back through the years on lsn. I think they've been doing it for a while. Bama, UGA, and UNC are probably some of the best schools to attend in the country outside of the true elites. Low tuition, the only schools that really blow them out of the water in their home markets are HYS, and they do decent with clerkships as well.

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danquayle
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby danquayle » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
togepi wrote:From what I saw on law school numbers, they definitely have a ton of money to throw around. Was that just for last cycle, or do you think that they will continue to give full rides to splitters.


Check back through the years on lsn. I think they've been doing it for a while. Bama, UGA, and UNC are probably some of the best schools to attend in the country outside of the true elites. Low tuition, the only schools that really blow them out of the water in their home markets are HYS, and they do decent with clerkships as well.


I dunno about UNC as much. It's a good school, but that got some damn stiff in-state competition.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:18 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
togepi wrote:From what I saw on law school numbers, they definitely have a ton of money to throw around. Was that just for last cycle, or do you think that they will continue to give full rides to splitters.


Check back through the years on lsn. I think they've been doing it for a while. Bama, UGA, and UNC are probably some of the best schools to attend in the country outside of the true elites. Low tuition, the only schools that really blow them out of the water in their home markets are HYS, and they do decent with clerkships as well.


Students in the South have a pretty nice middle ground too with Vanderbilt. Most people who want to work in the South, even those with terrible GPAs, can get money at Vanderbilt. See this guy:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/WDE83

Now if you do have the kind of GPA that makes Alabama a reasonable option you still need to be like that guy and get a decent scholarship or have family/personal money. Otherwise even with in-state tuition you're looking at six figure debt.

If you're this guy, you might have a bit tougher choice if you really want small firm/local government work in a particular southern state like Alabama. Debt would be about 100K higher at Duke than Alabama. Obviously if you want medium to large firm work Alabama is no option at all, given that only 19 out of 164 (LinkRemoved) graduates got work in a firm of more than 25 attorneys. 14 more got federal clerkships. Probably not worth three years of your life and 50-75K in debt for those odds unless you are cool with a different outcome.

And for the love of God do not be like this girl.

The South is probably the one region of the country where the T-14 sticker, just outside T-14 for small discount, regional for big discount applies for splitters. People from a place like California can only dream of those options given the high cost of living and love of GPAs at the Cali schools.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby shifty_eyed » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:37 pm

I got a call from Alabama today about a dinner they are having in my city tomorrow. Not going to go, but the admissions guy did raise some good points. Very affordable and has good placement rates compared to peer schools.

Don't want to work in Alabama though. :?

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BruceWayne
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:17 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:I got a call from Alabama today about a dinner they are having in my city tomorrow. Not going to go, but the admissions guy did raise some good points. Very affordable and has good placement rates compared to peer schools.

Don't want to work in Alabama though. :?


If you crush 1L you can get a job in Atlanta.

Aqualibrium
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:28 pm

I'm op.

Ended up going to Bama on a full ride plus stipend. Worked at two Bama firms 1L summer, a public interest job and a government agency 2L year, and 2 firms outside the state 2L summer. URM and had top quarter grades and was able to get interviews/offers in Texas, Atlanta, Louisiana, VA, DC, NC, and Florida through targeted mailings and job fairs for 2L summer. Ended up accepting permanent associate position that pays six figures in one of the places I mentioned above (not Bama).

Obviously YMMV, but Bama was a great experience and placed me exactly where I wanted to be. That said, I honestly wouldn't advise anyone to go to any law school outside of YHS unless you've got a sizeable scholarship . Btw, for the most part, the top 30 or so percent and those with connections (lots of folks) could get a jd required job...as others have said though, you're for the most part going to be limited to Alabama. Of course interviewing skills, my strength, and great grades will help you get further. One thing I'll say is that you shouldn't rely solely on OCI and you should think of the job hunt as a full time job.

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JCFindley
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby JCFindley » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:39 pm

togepi wrote:
danquayle wrote:Just saw this:

--LinkRemoved--


Pretty impressive actually. Provided you're cool with staying in Alabama, of course. Higher than Wash U, Texas, USC/UCLA and on par with Vanderbilt. I have to imagine the salaries are a lot lower, but if you want to stay in Alabama, probably a very good option. That's more than a lot of similar states schools can.


Yeah, I went to middle, high school, and university at Auburn and so Alabama is definitely one of the options I'm looking at for this upcoming cycle. I don't mind at all staying Alabama. Plus cost of living is pretty low and cost of attendance is likely to be fairly low in state and with any scholarships they may throw.


WAR EAGLE!

I think Bama is a great school for the money and does VERY well within its sphere of influence.

Personally, I love the state of Alabama and would have gone to Bama and stayed there if it wouldn't have the additional cost of a divorce. I may yet try and get back there anyway.

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togepi
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Re: So what makes Alabama a T30 law school?

Postby togepi » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:30 am

War Eagle! Doesn't sound great saying it the way the season is going haha.

Bama is definitely one of my top choices, as I don't mind working there or in a neighboring state.




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