How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

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Helmholtz
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:25 pm

Chewbacca Defense wrote:I think how it compares will also depend on the subject, like I'm sure UofT probably has a great polar bear rights program, and maybe a pretty good clinic on igloo property rights.


Hey, you never know when you're going to be in a board meeting and there is a moose that needs skinning or you have to build a bear trap out of tree branches.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:35 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Chewbacca Defense wrote:I think how it compares will also depend on the subject, like I'm sure UofT probably has a great polar bear rights program, and maybe a pretty good clinic on igloo property rights.


Hey, you never know when you're going to be in a board meeting and there is a moose that needs skinning or you have to build a bear trap out of tree branches.


I was trying to think of the American equivalent of those stereotypes, but could only come up with "gun-related criminal offences" and "that hot coffee was too hot" type suits. Sadly, you probably have (and need) a lot of expertise in those two fields.

someone99
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby someone99 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:09 pm

U of T, McGill and Osgoode Hall are traditionally viewed as the top rank of common law Canadian schools, which is why New York firms seeking talent rightfully recruit there. The rest (except for two or three others at the lower end) are generally more or less equal to each other and not far apart from the top three. Getting into any law school in Canada is much more difficult than getting into one in the U.S., as there are only about 20 schools north or the border and all of them (except the few I alluded to above) are good. This is the main reason many Canadians go to the U.S. or Australia for law school after not getting into their home country (except of course for the students who opt for a T14). We don't have any Cooley or Phoenix equivalents here.

legends159
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby legends159 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:22 pm

someone99 wrote: We don't have any Cooley or Phoenix equivalents here.


LUCKY

rofl
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby rofl » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:08 pm

Chewbacca Defense wrote:I think how it compares will also depend on the subject, like I'm sure UofT probably has a great polar bear rights program, and maybe a pretty good clinic on igloo property rights.

Apparently it's a live issue, Chuckles.

nymets123
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby nymets123 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:03 pm

[/quote]
They ensure that their television shows are mostly Canadian because they do not want Canadians doing what many fools around the world do...look up to America/Americans.
[/quote]

thats a joke...Canada pumps out american tv shows like its their job. You should see the studios in Vancouver...hugely American

Toronto MAY be different (i doubt it) but at least BC has nooo shame in taking American money

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gwn
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby gwn » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:59 pm

nymets123 wrote:

They ensure that their television shows are mostly Canadian because they do not want Canadians doing what many fools around the world do...look up to America/Americans.
[/quote]

thats a joke...Canada pumps out american tv shows like its their job. You should see the studios in Vancouver...hugely American

Toronto MAY be different (i doubt it) but at least BC has nooo shame in taking American money[/quote]

wow clearly getting in on this thread a little late. and so much to correct, goodness!
but to just start with the above - you misunderstand. Canadian studios are happy to take money for American TV shows to be made here, but there's a limit to how much American content is actually shown on television.

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pikalove
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby pikalove » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:08 pm

Just to clear up something...

The median GPA and LSAT for most Canadian law schools (especially U of T, Osgoode and McGill) is 3.8-3.9 and 162-169ish. The reason why the LSAT is generally lower is not because Canadian schools suck, but because CANADIAN SCHOOLS DON'T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THE LSAT AS AMERICAN SCHOOLS and weigh it less in admissions decisions accordingly. For instance, you don't even need to take the LSAT to get into McGill.

Keeping this is mind, it would seem that Canadian schools are much harder to get into that "equivalent" american schools (I heard Duke suggested as one) - unless Duke boasts a median 3.9 GPA. In this sense, admissions into Canadian law schools can be thought of as similar to admissions in CCN and HYS.

And having gone to McGill for 4 years I can tell you that I have yet to encounter a course on Polar Bear Rights or Igloo construction.

Hope this helps clear up the confusion!

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jcunni5
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jcunni5 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:14 pm

pikalove wrote:Just to clear up something...

The median GPA and LSAT for most Canadian law schools (especially U of T, Osgoode and McGill) is 3.8-3.9 and 162-169ish. The reason why the LSAT is generally lower is not because Canadian schools suck, but because CANADIAN SCHOOLS DON'T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THE LSAT AS AMERICAN SCHOOLS and weigh it less in admissions decisions accordingly. For instance, you don't even need to take the LSAT to get into McGill.

Keeping this is mind, it would seem that Canadian schools are much harder to get into that "equivalent" american schools (I heard Duke suggested as one) - unless Duke boasts a median 3.9 GPA. In this sense, admissions into Canadian law schools can be thought of as similar to admissions in CCN and HYS.

And having gone to McGill for 4 years I can tell you that I have yet to encounter a course on Polar Bear Rights or Igloo construction.

Hope this helps clear up the confusion!


sorry i don't think you will convince anyone on this board that U of T is even close to CCN much less HYS that's ridiculous. if anything from what you described its sounds more like boalt and I think even that might be a stretch

Shadyb
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Shadyb » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:19 am

All the idiotic Canada bashing aside, if OP or anyone else wants real information about going to school in one country and working in another, I'll try to answer. I know more about going to school in the US and working in Canada because that's what I'm doing, but I went to law school in Canada for a year, so know about the law school system there as well.

As for U of T, it's obviously percieved differently in the US and Canada; but I will say that even in Canada HYS are valued more (in part because so few HYS grads go to Canada, so they are sought after). Firms want big name schools because clients want to see that the lawyers on their case went to big name schools. You can go from U of T to biglaw in NYC, but it's not as easy as from a top US law school. Basically, I wouldn't go to a Canadian law school unless you are willing to stay in Canada. If nothing else, all the OCIs are geared to Toronto firms, and inertia will take you there.

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pikalove
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby pikalove » Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:51 pm

Perhaps you misunderstood me jcunni5....

I did not say that CCY and HYS are equivalent to U of T in quality of education, job opportunity, prestige, etc. - I said the admission standards (because Canada tends to focus more on GPA - except UBC) were more equivalent than law schools it has traditionally been compared to in the US. That is all... So Shadyb, I totally agree with you about job opportunities and prestige - U of T isn't as good, but the admissions standards are more equivalent than those categories (in my opinion).

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:04 pm

pikalove wrote:Perhaps you misunderstood me jcunni5....

I did not say that CCY and HYS are equivalent to U of T in quality of education, job opportunity, prestige, etc. - I said the admission standards (because Canada tends to focus more on GPA - except UBC) were more equivalent than law schools it has traditionally been compared to in the US. That is all... So Shadyb, I totally agree with you about job opportunities and prestige - U of T isn't as good, but the admissions standards are more equivalent than those categories (in my opinion).


What do you mean admission categories? Do you mean GPA/LSAT score? GPAs are probably pretty similar, but the LSAT scores sure as hell aren't. A 3.9-4.0 with a 165 will get into U of T, they will not get anything from HYS.

yabbadabbado
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby yabbadabbado » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:08 pm

I know a Canadian who chose a top 20 US school over going to law school in Canada. He basically said that you didn't get a huge advantage in employment based on school name by going to top Canadian law school. Basically, he said employers just grab the top students from each school. He thought he would have a better chance at a high paying job by going to the US school. I don't know whether or not he ended up with a US biglaw job or not. If he didn't get biglaw, and had to take out big loans to attend the US school, he's probably kicking himself for not going to school in Canada.

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rayiner
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby rayiner » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:29 pm

U of Toronto's medians are 3.8/167, or about the same GPA as UIUC and Berkeley with an LSAT between the two.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:06 pm

rayiner wrote:U of Toronto's medians are 3.8/167, or about the same GPA as UIUC and Berkeley with an LSAT between the two.


Plus they only count the best 2 or 3 years of grades in the GPA. I'm sure the actual median is lower.

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:59 am

jackassjim wrote:
rayiner wrote:U of Toronto's medians are 3.8/167, or about the same GPA as UIUC and Berkeley with an LSAT between the two.


Plus they only count the best 2 or 3 years of grades in the GPA. I'm sure the actual median is lower.


This is true. I think it is the best two years, or the last two years, or something like that.

All Canadian schools have some system of "drops", some drop your worst 6 or 12 credits, some drop your worst year, some take your best 2 years, some take your last two years. We aren't as numbers based up here and a little more holistic.

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Cara
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Cara » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:46 am

How about this as a way of comparing difficulty of entry:

- USA has 9.05 times the population of Canada

- UoT takes 190 new students per year

- therefore it's about as competitive for a Canadian to be one of those 190 at UoT as it is for an American to be accepted in one of the top (9.05 x 190 = 1721) places for new students in US law schools

- If you count down from YLS using the 2009 US News rankings then the 1721st place is at NYU (ranked #5)

- Therefore, UoT is about as difficult to get into for Canadians as the T5 is for Americans

freeflowfox
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby freeflowfox » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:50 am

Good analysis to above poster, unscientific, but a nice calculation.

I think it's top 3 years, but if you apply in the last year of your schooling, it's first 3 years. I'm not sure though, the website says nothing about it, may be unofficial, but they are competitive enough that i'm pretty sure they look at all the grades.

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NayBoer
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby NayBoer » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:11 pm

Cara wrote:How about this as a way of comparing difficulty of entry:

- USA has 9.05 times the population of Canada

- UoT takes 190 new students per year

- therefore it's about as competitive for a Canadian to be one of those 190 at UoT as it is for an American to be accepted in one of the top (9.05 x 190 = 1721) places for new students in US law schools

- If you count down from YLS using the 2009 US News rankings then the 1721st place is at NYU (ranked #5)

- Therefore, UoT is about as difficult to get into for Canadians as the T5 is for Americans
I find the analysis interesting even if I don't really get the utility in comparison; T5 makes sense as a measure of placement power or of difficulty of admissions, neither of which comes into play from crunching these numbers. Also, rather than population of the country, the relevant number is probably either the number of practicing attorneys in Canada or the number of law students each year (which I imagine would exaggerate the noted effect).

But you treat Canada like it has a wholly separate legal education system. Canadians try to get into American schools, especially the good ones, and it's my understanding that a top US JD is an acceptable replacement for an LLB.

If that's the case and Canadian legal education is somewhat connected to the US at the top of the food chain, then you might say more that the top 5 schools for Canada are the top 5 US schools. Or at least that the top schools for practicing in Canada are HYS.

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MF248
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby MF248 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:18 pm

Canadian wrote:This question is obviously directed to those of you familiar with Canadian schools. I'm wondering how U of T compares to getting into one of the better U.S. schools. I know it doesn't stack up to Harvard or Stanford, but I wonder how it would compare to, say, UC Berkeley.


Which state is Toronto in again?

urban_cdn
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby urban_cdn » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:23 pm

toronto is in the province of ontario.

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BLi
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby BLi » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:25 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
The best school in Canada isn't saying a lot. It's like being the smartest of the special ed kids.



How do you mean?

urban_cdn
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby urban_cdn » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:36 pm

BLi wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
The best school in Canada isn't saying a lot. It's like being the smartest of the special ed kids.



How do you mean?



americans love canada jokes. my boyfriend is american (hence the applications to american law schools). its been years and i'm still a walking punch-line for a lot of people down there... don't take it personally haha.

p.s. shout-out to all the other mcgill students/grads here.

Small Law
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Small Law » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:15 pm

jayzon wrote:In Canada, it trumps many top American schools.

In the U.S., it does not equal T14.
Unfair, I know.



This is very true. You aren't getting a biglaw job in the states from a Canadian law school. most big firms don't even recruit there (By recruit, I mean hire. Some may interview, but if you look at summer associate classes, you won't find Toronto students).

col.faith
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby col.faith » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:37 am

I'll try to explain why U of T takes only the best 3 of the 4 years of GPA from their applicants. My understanding is because they did not want to screw over their own undergrad students. I went to U of T undergrad. We have very strict grade controls to prevent GPA inflation. Professors have quotas on how many As and Bs they can give out.(less than 40% of students receive As and Bs) The median is ALWAYS controlled at 64-66(equivalent to C in letter grade or 2.7 in GPA), which means at least half of the class is getting below 2.7 GPA. Personally, I think this is one of the most stringent grading policies in North America, if not the most. Unless half of the students in a particular class in the US are getting high 50s, in which case I'll shut up immediately, otherwise, I think now the point becomes clear why U of T takes the best 3. But I got screwed over anyway. I have a very slim chance at U of T law school with their median GPA set at 3.8, since I only have a 3.47/4.00 GPA.(The best 3 yrs comes to 3.6) I wish I went to another school for my undergrad now. I am hoping that I can get into BU or BC, and hopefully I'll have a comparable career prospect in Boston as I would have in Toronto had I made it to U of T.




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