How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

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yqsong
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby yqsong » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:22 pm

you simply can't compare, they serve different markets

somebody before me has made it clear, it is about what you want to do

US T10 = more debt, more opportunity, potentially more money
U of T = less debt, less opportunity, potentially less money

and if you go to a US top 10, you can still get back to canada and find a decent job as long as you make up the articling
but if you go to U of T, you are restricted to sit for the bar in just a few states

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Helmholtz
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 pm

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

Mal
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Mal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:55 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.


It has better student numbers than anyone in that group, and is more in line with those in lower t14. Further, even this isn't nearly as cut and dry as you are supposing. UofT gives little merit aid, and has little reason to try align its stats to best fit USNWR. On the other hand it is the best in Canada thus there is no school above it leeching away the best talent the way HYS do.

Trying to force it into the ranking doesn't make sense. As I noted earlier in some regards it is better than many in the t14, others it is competitive, and others it is woefully beaten.
Last edited by Mal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:00 pm

Mal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.


It has better student numbers than anyone in that group, and is more in line with those in lower t14. Further, even this isn't nearly as cut and dry as you are supposing. UofT gives little merit aid, and has little reason to try align its stats to best fit USNWR. On the other hand it is the best in Canada thus there is no school above it leeching away the best talent the way HYS do.


Toronto median LSAT = 166
GULC median LSAT = 170
UCLA median LSAT = 168
Vanderbilt median LSAT = 168
Toronto median GPA = 3.8
GULC median GPA = 3.67
UCLA median GPA = 3.74
Vanderbilt median GPA = 3.72

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The best school in Canada isn't saying a lot. It's like being the smartest of the special ed kids.
Last edited by Helmholtz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ace0260
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby ace0260 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:05 pm

UofT only counts the best 3 years of undergrad in calculating the cum. gpa.

Oh and since it is the best school in Canada you can make the argument that the highest caliber students in Canada have nowhere else to go without taking on a lot of debt (US top 14). Again, this doesn't discount UofT being a top tier school (and probably comparable to the lower t14), but I want to expand on how these schools arrive at their median numbers.

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Helmholtz
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:09 pm

Mal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.


It has better student numbers than anyone in that group


Explain how you're arriving at that conclusion.

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heyyitskatie
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby heyyitskatie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:17 pm

slightly off topic, but how similar is a Canadian legal education to an American one? I would have never known that you could work in an American firm in the first place with a Canadian law degree...can we work in a Canadian firm with ours? Is law school that unrelated to real work that it just doesn't matter?

Mal
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Mal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:32 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Mal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.


It has better student numbers than anyone in that group


Explain how you're arriving at that conclusion.


I thought the median of UCLA/Vandy was 167, apparently it has gone up (I am not an expert, nor do I pretend to be on American schools). Toronto's was also 167 and has a better gpa. Apparently though they have increased 1 point. I'll give concede the point, it is pretty comparable to that group (also Cornell :P).

We are still arriving at an impasse due to significantly different circumstances under which it attracts students. It simply isn't a fair comparison.

Lastly you are a huge douchebag.

heyyitskatie wrote:slightly off topic, but how similar is a Canadian legal education to an American one? I would have never known that you could work in an American firm in the first place with a Canadian law degree...can we work in a Canadian firm with ours? Is law school that unrelated to real work that it just doesn't matter?


It is fairly similar education, but does have differences. You can write the bar in NY or Mass with a Canadian degree, Cali if you have written in either or Canadian bar.

You can work in Canada, but you need to go through a process known as NCA where you either have to write exams or redo law school courses. Then you have to article. Prior to this you need to get a job (to get the visa). It is very hard to do as a foreign citizen, especially from non-elite schools.

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the fledgling
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby the fledgling » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:47 pm

Mal wrote:
heyyitskatie wrote:slightly off topic, but how similar is a Canadian legal education to an American one? I would have never known that you could work in an American firm in the first place with a Canadian law degree...can we work in a Canadian firm with ours? Is law school that unrelated to real work that it just doesn't matter?


It is fairly similar education, but does have differences. You can write the bar in NY or Mass with a Canadian degree, Cali if you have written in either or Canadian bar.

You can work in Canada, but you need to go through a process known as NCA where you either have to write exams or redo law school courses. Then you have to article. Prior to this you need to get a job (to get the visa). It is very hard to do as a foreign citizen, especially from non-elite schools.


I'm surprised that the bars of NY, MA, and CA don't require an LLM or some sort of joint degree from Canadian law grads.

bamboozledbear
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby bamboozledbear » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:26 am

the fledgling wrote:I'm surprised that the bars of NY, MA, and CA don't require an LLM or some sort of joint degree from Canadian law grads.


It depends on the foreign institution. They don't require LLM from Oxford/Cambridge LLB holders for example.

Bankhead
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Bankhead » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:59 am

How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:32 am

nitsudrx wrote:How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?


About 21K CAD$ or 18K US$

They give NO merit-aid. It's all needs-based, and they're not too generous with that either (they offered me 300$; I have dependents and declared less than 20K in revenues for last year)

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chief915
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby chief915 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:16 pm

and where exactly is this "Montreal" you speak of?

:lol:

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:33 pm

jackassjim wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?


About 21K CAD$ or 18K US$

They give NO merit-aid. It's all needs-based, and they're not too generous with that either (they offered me 300$; I have dependents and declared less than 20K in revenues for last year)


Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Toronto is also the most expensive in Canada I think. McGill is ~12k TOTAL, UVic, UBC and Dalhousie are about ~8-12k.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:45 pm

crazycanuck wrote:Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.


Just curious, was that merit aid?

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:20 pm

jackassjim wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.


Just curious, was that merit aid?


No, I don't think so. They both had around 3.5/3.6 and 165-168ish LSAT. Had you worked for a number of years prior to applying? I hear they tend to take away money if you have worked for a while first. They went straight out of UG.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:43 pm

crazycanuck wrote:
jackassjim wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.


Just curious, was that merit aid?


No, I don't think so. They both had around 3.5/3.6 and 165-168ish LSAT. Had you worked for a number of years prior to applying? I hear they tend to take away money if you have worked for a while first. They went straight out of UG.


I had been away from school after high school for a few years, but had come back to do a B.Sc. and an M.A. In that sense, I was straight out of school...

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:03 pm

jackassjim wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:
jackassjim wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.


Just curious, was that merit aid?


No, I don't think so. They both had around 3.5/3.6 and 165-168ish LSAT. Had you worked for a number of years prior to applying? I hear they tend to take away money if you have worked for a while first. They went straight out of UG.


I had been away from school after high school for a few years, but had come back to do a B.Sc. and an M.A. In that sense, I was straight out of school...


Oh, hmm weird. Maybe they just pull names out of a hat then?

LawDog3
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby LawDog3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:17 pm

jayzon wrote:
ace0260 wrote:
LawDog3 wrote:For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

A little foreign legal experience can go a long way...

"There was concern from the Toronto firms that the cream of the crop was being scooped away by the New York and Boston firms," says Lianne Krakauer, acting assistant dean of career services at the University of Toronto.

U of T actively encourages U.S. firms to interview students on campus every year and more than a dozen usually participate. But, in response to local concerns, the university also instituted a recruiting program for Toronto firms, Ms. Krakauer says.

Canadian law students aren't heading south in droves, she adds. On average, about 10 to 20 U of T students a year take jobs at American firms, either as summer interns or as full-time associate lawyers.
...
There aren't any restrictions for Canadian law grads working in New York and Massachusetts, says Ms. Krakauer, and a big inducement is that you don't have to article. Although the New York bar exam is tough, graduates can set to work immediately after being called, she adds.


UofT isn't comparable to UVA or Duke for US employment prospects. Not even close. 10-20 people go to the US per year (from your post) and I highly doubt this is entirely due to self selection (especially seeing as how they don't have to article). Again, great school. Again, not comparable in terms of job prospects. Although, I would love to see some OCI numbers.


Good point, but how much of that is self-selection? I bet not too many Yale graduates end up in Canada, but that doesn't mean they couldn't if they wanted to.


That's what I am saying. In terms of student quality, Toronto = Duke. And if Toronto students wanted to work in the U.S., most could. ..and they would get recruited more often. The fact is, recruiters already know that Canada provides a better quality of life and Toronto grads do not want to work in the U.S., nor do the recruiters want to waste their money recruiting people who do not want to leave.

I would also think some U.S. law schools would raise quite a bit of hell if U.S. firms began recruiting canadians in droves. and Canada is very stern about keeping Canada Canadian, they impose Canadian hiring minimums on Hollywood studios, for instance. They ensure that their television shows are mostly Canadian because they do not want Canadians doing what many fools around the world do...look up to America/Americans. Canada takes great effort to minimize American propoganda.

The hiring you mention is partly due to self-selection, perception of relative quality, logistics, and politics; it is not reflective of toronto graduates' quality.

LawDog3
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby LawDog3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Mal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.


It has better student numbers than anyone in that group, and is more in line with those in lower t14. Further, even this isn't nearly as cut and dry as you are supposing. UofT gives little merit aid, and has little reason to try align its stats to best fit USNWR. On the other hand it is the best in Canada thus there is no school above it leeching away the best talent the way HYS do.


Toronto median LSAT = 166
GULC median LSAT = 170
UCLA median LSAT = 168
Vanderbilt median LSAT = 168
Toronto median GPA = 3.8
GULC median GPA = 3.67
UCLA median GPA = 3.74
Vanderbilt median GPA = 3.72

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The best school in Canada isn't saying a lot. It's like being the smartest of the special ed kids.


Special Ed, huh? That's like calling LeBron James "so-so" b/c his teammates aren't as good as he is. If you're one of the best, you're one of the best...period.

LawDog3
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby LawDog3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:30 pm

zettsscores40 wrote:Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.


How can the top dog in the country be Duke/UVA in that country? I am confused by that one. I mean, In Canada, if you didn't go to Toronto or McGill (or maybe UBC), you are pretty much in back of the line.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:48 pm

LawDog3 wrote:How can the top dog in the country be Duke/UVA in that country? I am confused by that one.


I don't think we were talking about "top dog", but rather about average quality of student. I'm sure some of the UofT student could have made Yale. The average quality of students (at least based on numbers) is probably more in line with a low t14 or even less.

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hamburgler
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby hamburgler » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:07 pm

The only good thing to come from Canada is beer with a higher alcohol content. Other than that, they're lucky we even let them be a country. Stick to hockey and freezing your ass off, eh.

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observationalist
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby observationalist » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:12 pm

jackassjim wrote:
LawDog3 wrote:How can the top dog in the country be Duke/UVA in that country? I am confused by that one.


I don't think we were talking about "top dog", but rather about average quality of student. I'm sure some of the UofT student could have made Yale. The average quality of students (at least based on numbers) is probably more in line with a low t14 or even less.


There's a Canadian in my buffet dining club at school who explained his decision to come to Vandy full-sticker over UofT. Reportedly, the bandwidth of student quality at UofT is much greater than you'll find at US law schools, since it is the top in the country but loses a lot of students to lower-ranked schools in the US. There are a lot of people with Yale-like numbers who just didn't want to accrue debt and move to the US for their JDs, so they go to UofT figuring they'll do well enough vs. the low 160 LSAT kids to get the jobs they want. They push the level of competition way up, to the point where the people for whom UofT was their top acceptance could end up not doing well and facing limited job prospects. You have Yale-quality students competing with Emory-quality students for the same jobs, and that's gotta make things messy. Since employers don't necessarily know which students were the brightest going in, they have to employ the same gpa cutoffs you see at US schools with a 166 LSAT. So even though some of the brightest students head to UofT each year, firms will still only look at the top of the class.

I apologize for the anecdote.. I'm sure current students at UofT could speak more authoritatively on this. This was just my friend's reasoning in deciding to come to Nashville... he figured there was a better chance at doing well enough to land a job coming from Vandy than if he'd gone to Toronto.

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Chewbacca Defense
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Chewbacca Defense » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:22 pm

I think how it compares will also depend on the subject, like I'm sure UofT probably has a great polar bear rights program, and maybe a pretty good clinic on igloo property rights.




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