How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

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How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

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zettsscores40

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:15 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:49 pm
Posts: 6566

Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.

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Mal

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:18 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:06 pm
Posts: 91

zettsscores40 wrote:

Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.

What does that even mean? Duke/UVA in Canada? It doesn't make sense to me.

Also would like to add that they are very similar in difficulty getting into. 167/3.8 median for UofT, 168/3.78 for Duke. To say that 88th percentile where they say to rewrite is their 25th percentile is not true, its more like the cutoff regardless of gpa/soft factors. Such a point would be much lower than 25th percentile.

Last edited by Mal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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yqsong

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:22 pm

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:41 pm
Posts: 144

you simply can't compare, they serve different markets

somebody before me has made it clear, it is about what you want to do

US T10 = more debt, more opportunity, potentially more money
U of T = less debt, less opportunity, potentially less money

and if you go to a US top 10, you can still get back to canada and find a decent job as long as you make up the articling
but if you go to U of T, you are restricted to sit for the bar in just a few states

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Helmholtz

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 pm

Minister of Defense

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm
Posts: 9069

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

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Mal

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:55 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:06 pm
Posts: 91

Helmholtz wrote:

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

It has better student numbers than anyone in that group, and is more in line with those in lower t14. Further, even this isn't nearly as cut and dry as you are supposing. UofT gives little merit aid, and has little reason to try align its stats to best fit USNWR. On the other hand it is the best in Canada thus there is no school above it leeching away the best talent the way HYS do.

Trying to force it into the ranking doesn't make sense. As I noted earlier in some regards it is better than many in the t14, others it is competitive, and others it is woefully beaten.

Last edited by Mal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:00 pm

Minister of Defense

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm
Posts: 9069

Mal wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

Toronto median LSAT = 166
GULC median LSAT = 170
UCLA median LSAT = 168
Vanderbilt median LSAT = 168
Toronto median GPA = 3.8
GULC median GPA = 3.67
UCLA median GPA = 3.74
Vanderbilt median GPA = 3.72

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The best school in Canada isn't saying a lot. It's like being the smartest of the special ed kids.

Last edited by Helmholtz on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ace0260

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:05 pm

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:58 am
Posts: 298

UofT only counts the best 3 years of undergrad in calculating the cum. gpa.

Oh and since it is the best school in Canada you can make the argument that the highest caliber students in Canada have nowhere else to go without taking on a lot of debt (US top 14). Again, this doesn't discount UofT being a top tier school (and probably comparable to the lower t14), but I want to expand on how these schools arrive at their median numbers.

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Helmholtz

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:09 pm

Minister of Defense

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm
Posts: 9069

Mal wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

It has better student numbers than anyone in that group

Explain how you're arriving at that conclusion.

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heyyitskatie

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:17 pm

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 423

slightly off topic, but how similar is a Canadian legal education to an American one? I would have never known that you could work in an American firm in the first place with a Canadian law degree...can we work in a Canadian firm with ours? Is law school that unrelated to real work that it just doesn't matter?

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Mal

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:32 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:06 pm
Posts: 91

Helmholtz wrote:

Mal wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

It has better student numbers than anyone in that group

Explain how you're arriving at that conclusion.

I thought the median of UCLA/Vandy was 167, apparently it has gone up (I am not an expert, nor do I pretend to be on American schools). Toronto's was also 167 and has a better gpa. Apparently though they have increased 1 point. I'll give concede the point, it is pretty comparable to that group (also Cornell

).

We are still arriving at an impasse due to significantly different circumstances under which it attracts students. It simply isn't a fair comparison.

Lastly you are a huge douchebag.

heyyitskatie wrote:

It is fairly similar education, but does have differences. You can write the bar in NY or Mass with a Canadian degree, Cali if you have written in either or Canadian bar.

You can work in Canada, but you need to go through a process known as NCA where you either have to write exams or redo law school courses. Then you have to article. Prior to this you need to get a job (to get the visa). It is very hard to do as a foreign citizen, especially from non-elite schools.

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the fledgling

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:47 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:57 pm
Posts: 570

Mal wrote:

heyyitskatie wrote:

I'm surprised that the bars of NY, MA, and CA don't require an LLM or some sort of joint degree from Canadian law grads.

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bamboozledbear

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:26 am

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:32 pm
Posts: 111

the fledgling wrote:

I'm surprised that the bars of NY, MA, and CA don't require an LLM or some sort of joint degree from Canadian law grads.

It depends on the foreign institution. They don't require LLM from Oxford/Cambridge LLB holders for example.

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Bankhead

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:59 am

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:50 am
Posts: 4511

How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?

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jackassjim

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:32 am

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:58 pm
Posts: 868

nitsudrx wrote:

How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?

About 21K CAD$ or 18K US$

They give NO merit-aid. It's all needs-based, and they're not too generous with that either (they offered me 300$; I have dependents and declared less than 20K in revenues for last year)

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chief915

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:16 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:50 pm
Posts: 162

and where exactly is this "Montreal" you speak of?

:lol:

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crazycanuck

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:33 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 3264

jackassjim wrote:

nitsudrx wrote:

How much does TTToronto (sorry couldn't resist) cost per year?

Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Toronto is also the most expensive in Canada I think. McGill is ~12k TOTAL, UVic, UBC and Dalhousie are about ~8-12k.

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jackassjim

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:45 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:58 pm
Posts: 868

crazycanuck wrote:

Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Just curious, was that merit aid?

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crazycanuck

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:20 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 3264

jackassjim wrote:

crazycanuck wrote:

Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Just curious, was that merit aid?

No, I don't think so. They both had around 3.5/3.6 and 165-168ish LSAT. Had you worked for a number of years prior to applying? I hear they tend to take away money if you have worked for a while first. They went straight out of UG.

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jackassjim

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:43 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:58 pm
Posts: 868

crazycanuck wrote:

jackassjim wrote:

crazycanuck wrote:

Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Just curious, was that merit aid?

I had been away from school after high school for a few years, but had come back to do a B.Sc. and an M.A. In that sense, I was straight out of school...

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crazycanuck

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:03 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 3264

jackassjim wrote:

crazycanuck wrote:

jackassjim wrote:

crazycanuck wrote:

Anecdotal evidence. I have friends who received a whopping amount of aid. They paid about 10-11k this year, so about 10k each year, 50%ish.

Just curious, was that merit aid?

I had been away from school after high school for a few years, but had come back to do a B.Sc. and an M.A. In that sense, I was straight out of school...

Oh, hmm weird. Maybe they just pull names out of a hat then?

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LawDog3

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:17 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 pm
Posts: 589

jayzon wrote:

ace0260 wrote:

LawDog3 wrote:

For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

A little foreign legal experience can go a long way...

"There was concern from the Toronto firms that the cream of the crop was being scooped away by the New York and Boston firms," says Lianne Krakauer, acting assistant dean of career services at the University of Toronto.

U of T actively encourages U.S. firms to interview students on campus every year and more than a dozen usually participate. But, in response to local concerns, the university also instituted a recruiting program for Toronto firms, Ms. Krakauer says.

Canadian law students aren't heading south in droves, she adds. On average, about 10 to 20 U of T students a year take jobs at American firms, either as summer interns or as full-time associate lawyers.
...
There aren't any restrictions for Canadian law grads working in New York and Massachusetts, says Ms. Krakauer, and a big inducement is that you don't have to article. Although the New York bar exam is tough, graduates can set to work immediately after being called, she adds.

UofT isn't comparable to UVA or Duke for US employment prospects. Not even close. 10-20 people go to the US per year (from your post) and I highly doubt this is entirely due to self selection (especially seeing as how they don't have to article). Again, great school. Again, not comparable in terms of job prospects. Although, I would love to see some OCI numbers.

Good point, but how much of that is self-selection? I bet not too many Yale graduates end up in Canada, but that doesn't mean they couldn't if they wanted to.

That's what I am saying. In terms of student quality, Toronto = Duke. And if Toronto students wanted to work in the U.S., most could. ..and they would get recruited more often. The fact is, recruiters already know that Canada provides a better quality of life and Toronto grads do not want to work in the U.S., nor do the recruiters want to waste their money recruiting people who do not want to leave.

I would also think some U.S. law schools would raise quite a bit of hell if U.S. firms began recruiting canadians in droves. and Canada is very stern about keeping Canada Canadian, they impose Canadian hiring minimums on Hollywood studios, for instance. They ensure that their television shows are mostly Canadian because they do not want Canadians doing what many fools around the world do...look up to America/Americans. Canada takes great effort to minimize American propoganda.

The hiring you mention is partly due to self-selection, perception of relative quality, logistics, and politics; it is not reflective of toronto graduates' quality.

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LawDog3

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 pm
Posts: 589

Helmholtz wrote:

Mal wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

Going by student numbers, they'd probably be in the 15-20 range of the USNWR.

Special Ed, huh? That's like calling LeBron James "so-so" b/c his teammates aren't as good as he is. If you're one of the best, you're one of the best...period.

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LawDog3

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:30 pm

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 pm
Posts: 589

zettsscores40 wrote:

Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.

How can the top dog in the country be Duke/UVA in that country? I am confused by that one. I mean, In Canada, if you didn't go to Toronto or McGill (or maybe UBC), you are pretty much in back of the line.

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jackassjim

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:48 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:58 pm
Posts: 868

LawDog3 wrote:

How can the top dog in the country be Duke/UVA in that country? I am confused by that one.

I don't think we were talking about "top dog", but rather about average quality of student. I'm sure some of the UofT student could have made Yale. The average quality of students (at least based on numbers) is probably more in line with a low t14 or even less.

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hamburgler

Post subject: Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:07 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:29 pm
Posts: 49

The only good thing to come from Canada is beer with a higher alcohol content. Other than that, they're lucky we even let them be a country. Stick to hockey and freezing your ass off, eh.

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