How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

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Canadian
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How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Canadian » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:57 pm

This question is obviously directed to those of you familiar with Canadian schools. I'm wondering how U of T compares to getting into one of the better U.S. schools. I know it doesn't stack up to Harvard or Stanford, but I wonder how it would compare to, say, UC Berkeley.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:00 pm

Prof Leiter helped Maclean's do its Canadian ranking, and he also does yearly rankings for American schools. In his interview for this website (see Dean interview section at the top of the page), he says:

TLS: The U.S. News law school rankings do not cover Canadian law schools. You helped Maclean Magazine create a ranking system for Canadian law schools. Overall, how would you compare Canadian law schools to their American counterparts? For example, would the U. of Toronto Faculty of Law be comparable to a Top 14 or Top 20 law school in America.

The Toronto faculty is the strongest in Canada, comparable to the Georgetown/Northwestern/Texas cluster in the US, so stronger than some of those I assume you mean by “top 14,” and weaker than others. They have a particularly good law & economics group, which is unusual in Canada. Osgoode has the second best faculty overall in Canada, comparable to the US top 20-25 (I’m referring to my measures, obviously, not US News). McGill has at least as good a reputation in Canada, though its faculty underperforms at the international level. British Columbia is also quite solid.

ace0260
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby ace0260 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:02 pm

depends on the angle of your question. If you are comparing UofT to top10 US schools from an outside perspective, it definitely ranks up there with most of them.

If you are viewing this question from the position of a prospective student, UofT can be very different than the US top 10.

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:10 pm

ace0260 wrote:If you are comparing UofT to top10 US schools from an outside perspective, it definitely ranks up there with most of them.


What does this mean?

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby SoxyPirate » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:20 pm

what's a University of Toronto?

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Bosque
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Bosque » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:36 pm

SoxyPirate wrote:what's a University of Toronto?


Exactly.

Canadian
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Canadian » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:38 pm

Bosque wrote:
SoxyPirate wrote:what's a University of Toronto?


Exactly.


Well, THIS isn't helpful. You can make a case that it's not as good a school if you want, but it's just hyperbole to act like you don't know what I'm talking about.

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Bosque
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Bosque » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:41 pm

Canadian wrote:
Bosque wrote:
SoxyPirate wrote:what's a University of Toronto?


Exactly.


Well, THIS isn't helpful. You can make a case that it's not as good a school if you want, but it's just hyperbole to act like you don't know what I'm talking about.


My point was that if you want to end up in the American legal market, Toronto is not going to help you. If you want to stay in Canada, I am not sure this is really the right site to be asking. I am not sure we have anyone who really knows anything about the Canadian legal market/ law schools.

Mal
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Mal » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:22 pm

jackassjim wrote:
ace0260 wrote:If you are comparing UofT to top10 US schools from an outside perspective, it definitely ranks up there with most of them.


What does this mean?


I would assume that from an outsiders perspective you are comparing it based on student quality, faculty quality, reputation, and generally how good an education you receive. In these respects it definitely is competitive with the top10 schools in the United States (more in line with lower ones).

However, it is difficult to compare it in other respects due the substantial differences between the legal market in Canada versus the United States. They boil down to the fundamental differences between the two countries. America is a much larger economy so the big business is willing to pay much more to get the best advice (thus biglaw has bigger opportunities). The next thing is that philosophically USA believes in a free market to an extreme, thus it is not surprising that there is too many terrible law schools in the United States. This is not true at all in Canada, all schools are publicly funded and there is firm control over who gets one (the last school to open was in the 70's). This also means that they are cheap for Canadians (my tuition is under $10,000 American). The last difference is that t14 is usually defined as national schools, but all Canadian schools are regional, even our best.

So to the OP: They are so inherently different that the choice isn't about "how do they compare", it is more "what I want". Personally, I want to work in Canada; so I am going to go to a Canadian school. If you want to work in America, to maximize your chances at the best opportunities, don't mind debt then a top10 school is an easy choice over UofT. If you want to work in Canada, are debt averse, and don't mind to limit your opportunities as long as they are good then UofT is a definite contender.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby SoxyPirate » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:47 pm

What's a Canada?

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crazycanuck
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Mal wrote:
jackassjim wrote:
ace0260 wrote:If you are comparing UofT to top10 US schools from an outside perspective, it definitely ranks up there with most of them.


What does this mean?


I would assume that from an outsiders perspective you are comparing it based on student quality, faculty quality, reputation, and generally how good an education you receive. In these respects it definitely is competitive with the top10 schools in the United States (more in line with lower ones).

However, it is difficult to compare it in other respects due the substantial differences between the legal market in Canada versus the United States. They boil down to the fundamental differences between the two countries. America is a much larger economy so the big business is willing to pay much more to get the best advice (thus biglaw has bigger opportunities). The next thing is that philosophically USA believes in a free market to an extreme, thus it is not surprising that there is too many terrible law schools in the United States. This is not true at all in Canada, all schools are publicly funded and there is firm control over who gets one (the last school to open was in the 70's). This also means that they are cheap for Canadians (my tuition is under $10,000 American). The last difference is that t14 is usually defined as national schools, but all Canadian schools are regional, even our best.

So to the OP: They are so inherently different that the choice isn't about "how do they compare", it is more "what I want". Personally, I want to work in Canada; so I am going to go to a Canadian school. If you want to work in America, to maximize your chances at the best opportunities, don't mind debt then a top10 school is an easy choice over UofT. If you want to work in Canada, are debt averse, and don't mind to limit your opportunities as long as they are good then UofT is a definite contender.


+1

Bankhead
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Bankhead » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:28 pm

Is anyone going to mention the words JOB PROSPECTS or is everyone just going to keep beating around the bush...?

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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby LawDog3 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:30 pm

For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

A little foreign legal experience can go a long way...

"There was concern from the Toronto firms that the cream of the crop was being scooped away by the New York and Boston firms," says Lianne Krakauer, acting assistant dean of career services at the University of Toronto.

U of T actively encourages U.S. firms to interview students on campus every year and more than a dozen usually participate. But, in response to local concerns, the university also instituted a recruiting program for Toronto firms, Ms. Krakauer says.

Canadian law students aren't heading south in droves, she adds. On average, about 10 to 20 U of T students a year take jobs at American firms, either as summer interns or as full-time associate lawyers.
...
There aren't any restrictions for Canadian law grads working in New York and Massachusetts, says Ms. Krakauer, and a big inducement is that you don't have to article. Although the New York bar exam is tough, graduates can set to work immediately after being called, she adds.

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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby crazycanuck » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:43 pm

nitsudrx wrote:Is anyone going to mention the words JOB PROSPECTS or is everyone just going to keep beating around the bush...?

U of T degree job prospects in Toronto and Canada are very good. In the U.S.A it's a little harder. Only a handful of NY firms goes to U of T OCIs.

ace0260
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby ace0260 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:00 am

LawDog3 wrote:For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

A little foreign legal experience can go a long way...

"There was concern from the Toronto firms that the cream of the crop was being scooped away by the New York and Boston firms," says Lianne Krakauer, acting assistant dean of career services at the University of Toronto.

U of T actively encourages U.S. firms to interview students on campus every year and more than a dozen usually participate. But, in response to local concerns, the university also instituted a recruiting program for Toronto firms, Ms. Krakauer says.

Canadian law students aren't heading south in droves, she adds. On average, about 10 to 20 U of T students a year take jobs at American firms, either as summer interns or as full-time associate lawyers.
...
There aren't any restrictions for Canadian law grads working in New York and Massachusetts, says Ms. Krakauer, and a big inducement is that you don't have to article. Although the New York bar exam is tough, graduates can set to work immediately after being called, she adds.


UofT isn't comparable to UVA or Duke for US employment prospects. Not even close. 10-20 people go to the US per year (from your post) and I highly doubt this is entirely due to self selection (especially seeing as how they don't have to article). Again, great school. Again, not comparable in terms of job prospects. Although, I would love to see some OCI numbers.

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Helmholtz
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:02 am

LawDog3 wrote:...canadian prestige...


oxymoron

Mal
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Mal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:02 am

ace0260 wrote:
LawDog3 wrote:For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

A little foreign legal experience can go a long way...

"There was concern from the Toronto firms that the cream of the crop was being scooped away by the New York and Boston firms," says Lianne Krakauer, acting assistant dean of career services at the University of Toronto.

U of T actively encourages U.S. firms to interview students on campus every year and more than a dozen usually participate. But, in response to local concerns, the university also instituted a recruiting program for Toronto firms, Ms. Krakauer says.

Canadian law students aren't heading south in droves, she adds. On average, about 10 to 20 U of T students a year take jobs at American firms, either as summer interns or as full-time associate lawyers.
...
There aren't any restrictions for Canadian law grads working in New York and Massachusetts, says Ms. Krakauer, and a big inducement is that you don't have to article. Although the New York bar exam is tough, graduates can set to work immediately after being called, she adds.


UofT isn't comparable to UVA or Duke for US employment prospects. Not even close. 10-20 people go to the US per year (from your post) and I highly doubt this is entirely due to self selection (especially seeing as how they don't have to article). Again, great school. Again, not comparable in terms of job prospects. Although, I would love to see some OCI numbers.


+1.

Toronto is not the HYS of Canada. To say it is betrays a serious lack of understanding of the Canadian education system in general.

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20160810
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:14 pm

Accio Pyke!

bamboozledbear
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby bamboozledbear » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:00 pm

LawDog3 wrote:For Canada, U of T is like HYS...for the U.S. (i.e., Toronto grad seeking a job in the U.S.), it's about the caliber of a Virginia or Duke, depending on which employer you ask.

The top two schools in Canada are Toronto and McGill, and they equal our HYS in canadian prestige. If you want to work in NY, Toronto is fantastic. And I heard that you don't have to "article" to start working in NY from Toronto. Yup, I was right...read below.

[


Isn't U of T a lot easier to get into than UVA or Duke? I think you only need a 164 or something on your LSAT...if not lower.

And wtf comparing UofT and McGill with HYS? Seriously?

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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:09 pm

bamboozledbear wrote:Isn't U of T a lot easier to get into than UVA or Duke? I think you only need a 164 or something on your LSAT...if not lower.


From UofT's website:

"An applicant whose academic record is competitive, but performs below the 88th percentile on the LSAT, should consider taking the test again. If more than one LSAT score is reported, the higher score is considered."

This is more of a cutoff for being auto-dinged than anything else. If I remember correctly, their median lsat was like 167 or 168

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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby bamboozledbear » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:10 pm

jackassjim wrote:
bamboozledbear wrote:Isn't U of T a lot easier to get into than UVA or Duke? I think you only need a 164 or something on your LSAT...if not lower.


From UofT's website:

"An applicant whose academic record is competitive, but performs below the 88th percentile on the LSAT, should consider taking the test again. If more than one LSAT score is reported, the higher score is considered."

This is more of a cutoff for being auto-dinged than anything else. If I remember correctly, their median lsat was like 167 or 168


88th percentile? Isn't that 162 or something? (Sorry, I didn't score that low...I have no idea what it is.)

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:10 pm

bamboozledbear wrote:And wtf comparing UofT and McGill with HYS? Seriously?


+1

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jackassjim
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby jackassjim » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:11 pm

bamboozledbear wrote:
jackassjim wrote:
bamboozledbear wrote:Isn't U of T a lot easier to get into than UVA or Duke? I think you only need a 164 or something on your LSAT...if not lower.


From UofT's website:

"An applicant whose academic record is competitive, but performs below the 88th percentile on the LSAT, should consider taking the test again. If more than one LSAT score is reported, the higher score is considered."

This is more of a cutoff for being auto-dinged than anything else. If I remember correctly, their median lsat was like 167 or 168


88th percentile? Isn't that 162 or something? (Sorry, I didn't score that low...I have no idea what it is.)


Probably around 163.

If you think of that number as their lower 25th, it's really not that low...

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zettsscores40
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby zettsscores40 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:15 pm

Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.

Mal
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Re: How does University of Toronto compare to the T10?

Postby Mal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:18 pm

zettsscores40 wrote:Something like 26 of their grads from 08 went to NYC. It's probably on Duke/UVA level in Canada but more along an Emory in the US, IMO. Look at their site, they give all the info.


What does that even mean? Duke/UVA in Canada? It doesn't make sense to me.

Also would like to add that they are very similar in difficulty getting into. 167/3.8 median for UofT, 168/3.78 for Duke. To say that 88th percentile where they say to rewrite is their 25th percentile is not true, its more like the cutoff regardless of gpa/soft factors. Such a point would be much lower than 25th percentile.
Last edited by Mal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.




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