Syracuse's Ranking drop?

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Masternater9
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Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Masternater9 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:04 pm

Does anyone know why Syracuse dropped in the rankings this last year and what they plan on doing to get that rank back up? Thanks for the input. Just got off their wait list and trying to make some last min. choices.

Masternater9
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Masternater9 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:21 pm

No insight? I know someone on here knows why. Where are all the hardcore TLSers with all the answers?

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richardfitzwell
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby richardfitzwell » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:23 pm

Masternater9 wrote:No insight? I know someone on here knows why. Where are all the hardcore TLSers with all the answers?



They elminated 2067 chairs from the law library. :P


Sorry I dont have a real answer.

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hoffb86
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby hoffb86 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Give it a little time.... this is a strange time of day for TLS.... I will try to chime in with some thoughts later, though I may not be the most knowledgeable on the 'cuse.... however, I am from there and my dad is a Syracuse law alum.

Masternater9
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Masternater9 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:26 pm

hoffb86 wrote:Give it a little time.... this is a strange time of day for TLS.... I will try to chime in with some thoughts later, though I may not be the most knowledgeable on the 'cuse.... however, I am from there and my dad is a Syracuse law alum.


Thanks Hoff. I sometimes forget that others jobs might be a bit more time consuming then the one I perform in my small cubicle. I'll keep checking back for some pearls of wisdom.

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jewtangclan03
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby jewtangclan03 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:22 pm

I have two ideas.

1. Do they have a PT program? Some schools with PTs went down in the rankings (except for BLS who "forgot") bc the inclusion of the PT stats lowered the school's overall stats and, hence, their USNWR ranking went down.

2. The economy. Syracuse isnt getting that top 10% into NY biglaw anymore (not sure if they ever did..) and I'll bet their career stats as a whole (median salary, unemployment %, etc.) went down the shitter.

It's not like they were that highly ranked to begin with. Weren't they close to #100 last year anyway? Rankings, especially as you move down the food chain, fluctuate 10-20 pts. from year to year pretty regularly, so its not hard to imagine how or why Syracuse went from the bottom of t2 to t3 status.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:18 am

jewtangclan03 wrote:I have two ideas.

1. Do they have a PT program? Some schools with PTs went down in the rankings (except for BLS who "forgot") bc the inclusion of the PT stats lowered the school's overall stats and, hence, their USNWR ranking went down.

2. The economy. Syracuse isnt getting that top 10% into NY biglaw anymore (not sure if they ever did..) and I'll bet their career stats as a whole (median salary, unemployment %, etc.) went down the shitter.

It's not like they were that highly ranked to begin with. Weren't they close to #100 last year anyway? Rankings, especially as you move down the food chain, fluctuate 10-20 pts. from year to year pretty regularly, so its not hard to imagine how or why Syracuse went from the bottom of t2 to t3 status.

I believe they were ranked #100 last year (tied with some other schools, if I recall correctly).

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nativedelta
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby nativedelta » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:26 am

That dip in the rankings for low T2 is one of the leading factors that led me to transfer. My school was in the 90's this past year, dropping 6 spots. When I realized that another identical drop in the coming year would put my school in the 3rd tier, alarm bells went off. $40,000 in tuition alone for a basically 3rd tier school = does not compute.

Now I'm squarely in T1 and feel much safer.

I'd be wary of any school so near the bottom of T2. You don't want to graduate from that school the year it takes a dip into T3.

Action Jackson
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Action Jackson » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:29 am

nativedelta wrote:That dip in the rankings for low T2 is one of the leading factors that led me to transfer. My school was in the 90's this past year, dropping 6 spots. When I realized that another identical drop in the coming year would put my school in the 3rd tier, alarm bells went off. $40,000 in tuition alone for a basically 3rd tier school = does not compute.

Now I'm squarely in T1 and feel much safer.

I'd be wary of any school so near the bottom of T2. You don't want to graduate from that school the year it takes a dip into T3.

In that range of rankings I don't think it matters very much what the actual ranking is.

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im_blue
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby im_blue » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:01 am

Action Jackson wrote:
nativedelta wrote:That dip in the rankings for low T2 is one of the leading factors that led me to transfer. My school was in the 90's this past year, dropping 6 spots. When I realized that another identical drop in the coming year would put my school in the 3rd tier, alarm bells went off. $40,000 in tuition alone for a basically 3rd tier school = does not compute.

Now I'm squarely in T1 and feel much safer.

I'd be wary of any school so near the bottom of T2. You don't want to graduate from that school the year it takes a dip into T3.

In that range of rankings I don't think it matters very much what the actual ranking is.


Yeah, in that range of rankings, your competition for local jobs is basically the local T3 and T4 schools, and there's always a set pecking order for a particular region.

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hoffb86
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby hoffb86 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:25 am

The one "good" thing about Syracuse Law... is that if you want to practice in upstate new york, there aren't THAT many schools to compete with. It is when you want to go to NYC from Syracuse that it becomes extremely difficult.

Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.

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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Bankhead » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:30 am

Sometimes love, err... I mean Joe Biden, just ain't enough.

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coolkatz321
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby coolkatz321 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:30 am

hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.

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hoffb86
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby hoffb86 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:32 am

coolkatz321 wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.


Careful Katz, this bolded part is not true.... From what I remember, and what my father (a Syracuse Law alum) told me... Syracuse used to be a Top 50 school, and the only choice for upstate new york, and even competitive in NYC as well.

sbalive
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby sbalive » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:02 am

hoffb86 wrote:
coolkatz321 wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.


Careful Katz, this bolded part is not true.... From what I remember, and what my father (a Syracuse Law alum) told me... Syracuse used to be a Top 50 school, and the only choice for upstate new york, and even competitive in NYC as well.


out of curiosity, what happened? Syracuse seems like it "should" have a good law school - it's a large private university with strong research programs in humanities / social sciences. Why does the law school seem so mediocre relative to the rest of the university?

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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby geoanthem » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:06 am

sbalive wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
coolkatz321 wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.


Careful Katz, this bolded part is not true.... From what I remember, and what my father (a Syracuse Law alum) told me... Syracuse used to be a Top 50 school, and the only choice for upstate new york, and even competitive in NYC as well.


out of curiosity, what happened? Syracuse seems like it "should" have a good law school - it's a large private university with strong research programs in humanities / social sciences. Why does the law school seem so mediocre relative to the rest of the university?

Because the only reason to consider going to upstate New York is Cornell?

sbalive
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby sbalive » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:11 am

geoanthem wrote:
sbalive wrote:out of curiosity, what happened? Syracuse seems like it "should" have a good law school - it's a large private university with strong research programs in humanities / social sciences. Why does the law school seem so mediocre relative to the rest of the university?

Because the only reason to consider going to upstate New York is Cornell?


You'd have to give me a lot of money to make go to upstate in New York at all... but in general, the location doesn't seem to have adversely affected the rest of the university as much. It might be a bit overrated for undergraduate programs (it seems to get a lot of rich kids who can't get into the Ivy League), but it is a legitimate force in social sciences research - which is much rare/more difficult than engineering research (due to funding differences) - and which ought to translate to having a reasonably strong law school. They don't have a huge endowment - but it's still a billion, which is high given that they don't have medical school. It just doesn't add up - why isn't Syracuse at least a T1 law school? (Actually, looking at their apparently updated wikipedia page, they're going to try to fix that, but it's still interesting to see how they declined. Maybe they had a lousy Dean who didn't keep up with hiring.)

geoanthem
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby geoanthem » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:16 am

True, Syracuse never seemed like a particularly strong school to me (besides the communications school). It definitely is a step below the Tulane's, GW's, and UMiami's of the world for UG. As you said they have a lot of rich kids from New York and the rest of the east coast, but from what I remember, it isn't particularly hard to get in to. Its one thing to spend 4 years in the middle of nowhere for ug and move back home, but its quite another when your most realistic job prospects are also in the middle of nowhere.

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hoffb86
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby hoffb86 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:17 am

sbalive wrote:
geoanthem wrote:
sbalive wrote:out of curiosity, what happened? Syracuse seems like it "should" have a good law school - it's a large private university with strong research programs in humanities / social sciences. Why does the law school seem so mediocre relative to the rest of the university?

Because the only reason to consider going to upstate New York is Cornell?


You'd have to give me a lot of money to make go to upstate in New York at all... but in general, the location doesn't seem to have adversely affected the rest of the university as much. It might be a bit overrated for undergraduate programs (it seems to get a lot of rich kids who can't get into the Ivy League), but it is a legitimate force in social sciences research - which is much rare/more difficult than engineering research (due to funding differences) - and which ought to translate to having a reasonably strong law school. They don't have a huge endowment - but it's still a billion, which is high given that they don't have medical school. It just doesn't add up - why isn't Syracuse at least a T1 law school? (Actually, looking at their apparently updated wikipedia page, they're going to try to fix that, but it's still interesting to see how they declined. Maybe they had a lousy Dean who didn't keep up with hiring.)


I'm going to ask my dad for his thought's on it. He's a syracuse alum. My guess is a lack of investment in facilities and new faculty, a struggling career services department that can't get the same reach as other regional schools. And, the rise of Buffalo Law as the in-state option for very cheap, solid legal education.

But, like I said, I will ask. I am curious as well. I was told I likely could've gone for free, but didn't even apply. I mean, with top ranked public affairs and communications schools, and solid academics overall, I think it should be higher up than it is....

will report back after I call him on my lunch break. :mrgreen:
Last edited by hoffb86 on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

afterglow99
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby afterglow99 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:24 am

If you're from NY though, you'd have to be crazy to take Syracuse over Buffalo. I think 'Cuse is literally THREE times the price. Maybe people are wising up to the fact that there is absolutely no reason to pay sticker for the school.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:21 pm

hoffb86 wrote:
coolkatz321 wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.


Careful Katz, this bolded part is not true.... From what I remember, and what my father (a Syracuse Law alum) told me... Syracuse used to be a Top 50 school, and the only choice for upstate new york, and even competitive in NYC as well.

Albany Law School was founded 44 years before Syracuse Law School.

But really, when it comes down to it, Buffalo's cheaper, Albany's in a better city (not a lot better, but still better) and has better employment stats, and both Buff and Albany have higher bar passage rates. Also, in my experience, in any upstate city except for Syracuse, Buffalo & Albany are more respected (these days, anyway).

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hoffb86
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby hoffb86 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
coolkatz321 wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Syracuse competes with Buffalo and Albany for jobs in the upstate new york area... Granted, it is still very competitive, because there aren't THAT many jobs up there right now. So, I agree with the sentiments of others about having a T2/T3/T4 in a local market.... If not expecting NYC, its not a terrible choice, although I think at this point, Buffalo is a better law school for the upstate new york market.


This. Syracuse has two things that really hurt it in the rankings: 1) It has to compete with Buffalo, which has always been ahead and 2) It's way overpriced...at nearly $60k/year they should offer better career prospects.


Careful Katz, this bolded part is not true.... From what I remember, and what my father (a Syracuse Law alum) told me... Syracuse used to be a Top 50 school, and the only choice for upstate new york, and even competitive in NYC as well.

Albany Law School was founded 44 years before Syracuse Law School.

But really, when it comes down to it, Buffalo's cheaper, Albany's in a better city (not a lot better, but still better) and has better employment stats, and both Buff and Albany have higher bar passage rates. Also, in my experience, in any upstate city except for Syracuse, Buffalo & Albany are more respected (these days, anyway).


By only, I meant the best choice, not the actual only choice. Also, Syracuse has the well-known university behind it, which keeps SU on the map....

I haven't had a chance to call my dad yet, busy day at work. Sorry.

Bankhead
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby Bankhead » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:34 pm

I thought Syracuse was the shit for undergrad.

sbalive
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby sbalive » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:48 pm

hoffb86 wrote:
Other25BeforeYou wrote:But really, when it comes down to it, Buffalo's cheaper, Albany's in a better city (not a lot better, but still better) and has better employment stats, and both Buff and Albany have higher bar passage rates. Also, in my experience, in any upstate city except for Syracuse, Buffalo & Albany are more respected (these days, anyway).


By only, I meant the best choice, not the actual only choice. Also, Syracuse has the well-known university behind it, which keeps SU on the map....

I haven't had a chance to call my dad yet, busy day at work. Sorry.


No prob, but it should be interesting to find out.

Syracuse is by far the strongest university of those - and it's not even just that Syracuse is a better university, it's that it's particularly good in humanities / social sciences disciplines that overlap with law. My bet is crappy law school administration combined with an overall university administration that didn't make the law school a priority.

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coolkatz321
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Re: Syracuse's Ranking drop?

Postby coolkatz321 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:23 pm

sbalive wrote:
hoffb86 wrote:
Other25BeforeYou wrote:But really, when it comes down to it, Buffalo's cheaper, Albany's in a better city (not a lot better, but still better) and has better employment stats, and both Buff and Albany have higher bar passage rates. Also, in my experience, in any upstate city except for Syracuse, Buffalo & Albany are more respected (these days, anyway).


By only, I meant the best choice, not the actual only choice. Also, Syracuse has the well-known university behind it, which keeps SU on the map....

I haven't had a chance to call my dad yet, busy day at work. Sorry.


No prob, but it should be interesting to find out.

Syracuse is by far the strongest university of those - and it's not even just that Syracuse is a better university, it's that it's particularly good in humanities / social sciences disciplines that overlap with law. My bet is crappy law school administration combined with an overall university administration that didn't make the law school a priority.


Please. Syracuse Law isn't anywhere near on-par with UB. It's better than Albany, but Buffalo definitely has a better reputation in the western NY and even NYC area (they place better there, Biglaw-wise).




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