Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
SWISHER JUGGERNAUT
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby SWISHER JUGGERNAUT » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:11 pm

i don't feel like searching through the posts to find it, but someone in the last couple pages said TLS gets more visitors to the site than XO. is that true? just curious. i've never been to JDU, and LSD seems like it hardly gets any posts anymore.

User avatar
MrOrange
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:54 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby MrOrange » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:12 pm

mallard wrote:I think this may be the sort of comment the juggernaut is getting at.

It doesn't necessarily matter which schools dominate your local legal market. Visualize this as a Venn diagram. If your local legal market has, say, ten job openings a year (obviously this is hypothetical), those could all go to graduates of your school. Your school would thus "dominate" the market more completely than any actual school dominates any actual market, I'm pretty sure. However, if your school graduates fifty JDs a year, there's still eighty percent of the class to worry about.

I do think TLSers tend to view many, many things in the simplest terms possible...based on how some of them post/write. But honestly, I doubt that there are a tremendous number of people here who think about taking on absurd amounts of debt at ANY school and say to themselves..."hey, this is a great, virtually risk-free investment".

The problem that I have with most (especially JDU) trolls is that they belabor the obvious and make simplistic assertions about complex decisions to degrees that are even more extreme than typical TLS comments.

All that being said, and without having read the last 4+ pages, JUGGERNAUT doesn't strike me as trollish.

User avatar
Ken
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:22 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby Ken » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:12 pm

Swisher has some valid points that if I had more time I could address on a larger scale but I will put forward some thoughts.

First, TLS is not my job and it is run as a passion (I just completed my tax returns and I made $752 on TLS. The money that I get from ads goes into paying TLS members and Stanford students to help me create more content. Profiles on all law schools and on top law firms will be coming out soon). The goal of TLS is to convey knowledge, not to make $ and if making $ was my goal the site would be optimized for this (such as showing ads to members), but I just want to make enough $ to help me expand the site to its true potential.

Second, my goal is to provide knowledge to help TLS members make an informed decision. I do not advocate going to a school outside of the top 50 if one is not certain they want to be a lawyer and I convey this in threads. Attending a top 14 law school with doubts about whether one will be a lawyer forever is fine since a degree from a national law school opens up many doors outside of the legal world plus is a great education. But I would never recommend attending Cooley or another law school if the applicant is not certain they want to pursue law. However, my posts and TLS in general has a more collaborative feel than other sites and I think there is value in that.

Third, I am proud that TLS has grown so large that there are many brilliant posters providing excellent advice. TLS was never to be about me, but about the community and it has really grown. I am happy to do things like sponsor OperaSoprano to find the rankings as I enjoy seeing the TLS community grow.

Fourth, TLS has flaws and I am always looking to improve them. Profiles for the top 20 law schools are going to get a major revamp and be an excellent resource. The profile on Michigan coming out will have interviews with both the Dean of Admissions and Dean, interviews with several students and professors, and professional photos taken, and will be written in large part by a Michigan law student. Of course, the profiles will be updated with the latest information as well. This will provide an invaluable look into what Michigan is like and can help applicants narrow down the list of what law schools they should visit. Any resource is limited, but I hope and anticipate that TLS will be the best free resource out on the web.

In sum, the goal of myself or TLS is not to take advantage of any 0L's and in fact is the opposite. TLS is just one of many law forums out there and is a great alternative for those looking for more of a collaborative community then the adversarial antaganism that pervades most forums. While I could expand upon this post if I had more time since it is still during my work day, I wanted to provide a summary response.

Onward and upward,

Ken

User avatar
mallard
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby mallard » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:17 pm

Ken, I think the profiles of top law firms will be a great addition to the site. If there's any area in which TLS is somewhat lacking it's in information about post-law school employment (it's clearly the most comprehensive and active site on admissions, and recently a lot of great threads have popped up about performance during law school). I think this might be a function of the age of the site, too.

The Rock
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby The Rock » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:18 pm

Ok, so now that Swisher's come here and defended the site, what do you all think of xoxo's perspective on tha rankings now?

User avatar
Ken
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:22 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby Ken » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:18 pm

Not that the quality of a website can be determined by site traffic alone, but TLS now gets about 3-4 times the amount of traffic of other law school forums. http://www.alexa.com/ allows one to punch in various websites and see how they rank against each other.

2 years ago TLS received about 1/3 the traffic of the leading law school forums and took the lead last year and now the growth of TLS continues to increase.

I fully agree that TLS is weak on post-law school employment and that is an area that I really look to expand in the next few months.

User avatar
mallard
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby mallard » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:19 pm

The Rock wrote:Ok, so now that Swisher's come here and defended the site, what do you all think of xoxo's perspective on tha rankings now?


I'm not convinced it matters what we think.

User avatar
Mr. Matlock
Posts: 1360
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:19 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:
jcwilsn1 wrote:I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and will graduate with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.


congrats. no one can really argue with that decision. i don't think you'll ever see me arguing that no one should ever consider going to any school outside the T14.

mallard wrote:
jcwilsn1 wrote:I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and will graduate with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.


I think this may be the sort of comment the juggernaut is getting at.


Ok, now that's funny. :lol:

wwarren
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:10 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby wwarren » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:24 pm

I think that the best part of TLS is that, unlike other law school related websites, it lets people know exactly what they're getting into by going to a certain school. I just don't see how it's productive to tell someone that if they want to practice in a certain area that a regional school is a professional death sentence like so many of the other sites do. What TLS does is informs users as to what to expect if they decide to attend a school like Alabama. The fact of it is that a LOT of people go to law school every year and only a fraction of that number is composed of individuals who matriculate at t14s so it is better for there to be some sort of information for the larger community. Better than these T3-ers not knowing what they're getting into at all.

User avatar
dantimreynolds
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby dantimreynolds » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Jugg,

If those two ken posts don't show why a lot of us choose this site, nothing will.

jcwilsn1
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:35 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby jcwilsn1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:34 pm

mallard wrote:
jcwilsn1 wrote:I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and will graduate with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.


I think this may be the sort of comment the juggernaut is getting at.


Is it funny? I guess I must be missing something.

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:Ken probably uses phrases like "strong regional placement" and "good fit" to describe schools that prey on people like the posters in this thread, while XO posters would say things like "TTT" or "OP, kill self before you go to either of those schools" or "sorry about your tiny pink LSAT score." so you get confused by tone and you worship Ken even though he doesn't have your best interests at heart.


turns into

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:congrats. no one can really argue with that decision. i don't think you'll ever see me arguing that no one should ever consider going to any school outside the T14.


very quick. Now thats pretty funny.

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby SWISHER JUGGERNAUT » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:49 pm

thanks for responding ken. a few posts ago i backed off from attacking your motives cause it was uncalled for and unfounded . sorry for doing that in the first place.

and i only looked at a few dozen or so out of your 2000 or so posts, but i still think we just disagree on the wisdom of taking on the amount of debt these kids take on to go to schools where the majority of students will end up in low-paying jobs. i don't care how much a 20 year old junior in college "really wants to pursue the law," i wouldn't give the advice i've seen you give on this site. i know i'm being a bit misleading about what it is you do here, but this is a short post and i don't feel li i think we both know there's a huge problem with naive 20-22 year old kids going 100-150K in debt to go to these types of schools. i think your site and comments like you just made about Cooley make the problem worse.

but again, i apologize for the comments earlier - your motives in running the site seem pretty admirable. if i continue posting here, i'll only respond to substance from now on - i won't make attacks like that again.

chadstew55
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:58 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby chadstew55 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:55 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:thanks for responding ken. a few posts ago i backed off from attacking your motives cause it was uncalled for and unfounded . sorry for doing that in the first place.

and i only looked at a few dozen or so out of your 2000 or so posts, but i still think we just disagree on the wisdom of taking on the amount of debt these kids take on to go to schools where the majority of students will end up in low-paying jobs. i don't care how much a 20 year old junior in college "really wants to pursue the law," i wouldn't give the advice i've seen you give on this site. i know i'm being a bit misleading about what it is you do here, but this is a short post and i don't feel li i think we both know there's a huge problem with naive 20-22 year old kids going 100-150K in debt to go to these types of schools. i think your site and comments like you just made about Cooley make the problem worse.

but again, i apologize for the comments earlier - your motives in running the site seem pretty admirable. if i continue posting here, i'll only respond to substance from now on - i won't make attacks like that again.

So, I've never posted on xoxo, but it probably offers me the most entertainment of any website. Seriously, that thread yall did about becoming a "gunner legend" was the best.

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby SWISHER JUGGERNAUT » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:00 pm

jcwilsn - that poster presumably got a full scholarship (i'm assuming the 50K he'll have in debt is for living expenses over 3 years) to a supposedly solid tier 2. i've tried to say explain i'm not a "T14 or killself" person. if you want to insist i am, then i don't know what to tell you. i just think too many students go to tier 2-4 (especially 3 and 4) schools while taking out 150K in debt. that's not that poster's situation. i apologize if i'm not as unreasonable as you were hoping i'd be.

User avatar
PhantaManta
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby PhantaManta » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:05 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:thanks for responding ken. a few posts ago i backed off from attacking your motives cause it was uncalled for and unfounded . sorry for doing that in the first place.

and i only looked at a few dozen or so out of your 2000 or so posts, but i still think we just disagree on the wisdom of taking on the amount of debt these kids take on to go to schools where the majority of students will end up in low-paying jobs. i don't care how much a 20 year old junior in college "really wants to pursue the law," i wouldn't give the advice i've seen you give on this site. i know i'm being a bit misleading about what it is you do here, but this is a short post and i don't feel li i think we both know there's a huge problem with naive 20-22 year old kids going 100-150K in debt to go to these types of schools. i think your site and comments like you just made about Cooley make the problem worse.

but again, i apologize for the comments earlier - your motives in running the site seem pretty admirable. if i continue posting here, i'll only respond to substance from now on - i won't make attacks like that again.


100k debt isn't impossible. I am almost 100% sure that >85% of TLS people taking 100k debt at midrange schools understand that they will not have an expensive life style while paying that back because their salary won't be that high to start, but it is certainly doable if someone wants to, and tbh, career earnings will usually make up for it - maybe it isn't the optimal economic strategy, but I think they are ware of that.

Second of all, there isn't a lot of information on this subject and I don't personally know all the details (although I've tried to look into it) but the government programs for public interest / government work seem to make 100k debt VERY doable if you plan to work in one of those areas.

jcwilsn1
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:35 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby jcwilsn1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:06 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:jcwilsn - that poster presumably got a full scholarship (i'm assuming the 50K he'll have in debt is for living expenses over 3 years) to a supposedly solid tier 2. i've tried to say explain i'm not a "T14 or killself" person. if you want to insist i am, then i don't know what to tell you. i just think too many students go to tier 2-4 (especially 3 and 4) schools while taking out 150K in debt. that's not that poster's situation. i apologize if i'm not as unreasonable as you were hoping i'd be.


I'm the original poster. I was actually able to save quite a nest egg while I was working so I don't have to take loans out for living expenses. I'm not trying to insist anything, just quoting. But no worries, you are not the troll we all thought you were. Have a good time at TLS

TuNeCedeMalis
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:46 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby TuNeCedeMalis » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:12 pm

Um, I just want to say that the aesthetic appeal of TLS, content aside, is much better.

Go Ken.

User avatar
superflush
Posts: 1305
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby superflush » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:52 pm

PhantaManta wrote:The consensus is that people can still be relatively successful and happy at T2s if they keep cost down, would be happy to work outside of biglaw, and are not expecting to become immediately rich. It might even be hard.

It's hard for us to think xoxo and jdu guys are serious when they don't care enough to give rational advice and instead prefer to screw around, insult people, cause trouble, be racist. I mean, I guess it's funny, but it doesn't seem serious.


+1

woopwoop
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:54 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby woopwoop » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:16 pm

rdt854 wrote:someone post employment numbers? kthanxxxx



+1

User avatar
kimber1028
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:59 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby kimber1028 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:23 pm

woopwoop wrote:
rdt854 wrote:someone post employment numbers? kthanxxxx



+1


The employment numbers are within the original pictures. If you want salary data, here is the original thread:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69361&p=1520650#p1520650

And here is the compiled data thread:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69389

User avatar
PhantaManta
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby PhantaManta » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:13 pm

http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... forum_id=2


High level discourse brought to you by xoxohth!

cbrown
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:14 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby cbrown » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:17 pm

:)
Last edited by cbrown on Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby SWISHER JUGGERNAUT » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:23 pm

cbrown wrote:Hey all. I know this is a law school forum, but does anyone have the business school rankings? If you could post them, I would very much appreciate it!


i know i'm new here from xoxohth.com (another law school forum), and i don't want to be *THAT* guy who trolls for his former discussion site, but on http://www.xoxohth.com there's actually a business section. it's labeled "Biz" on the homepage. i don't know if they have the rankings, but it's where people on that site go to talk about business school.

User avatar
hoffb86
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:11 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby hoffb86 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:24 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:
cbrown wrote:Hey all. I know this is a law school forum, but does anyone have the business school rankings? If you could post them, I would very much appreciate it!


i know i'm new here from xoxohth.com (another law school forum), and i don't want to be *THAT* guy who trolls for his former discussion site, but on http://www.xoxohth.com there's actually a business section. it's labeled "Biz" on the homepage. i don't know if they have the rankings, but it's where people on that site go to talk about business school.


FORMER discussion site? Are you officially converting? lol 8)

geoanthem
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:32 am

Re: Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings!

Postby geoanthem » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:25 pm

SWISHER JUGGERNAUT wrote:
cbrown wrote:Hey all. I know this is a law school forum, but does anyone have the business school rankings? If you could post them, I would very much appreciate it!


i know i'm new here from xoxohth.com (another law school forum), and i don't want to be *THAT* guy who trolls for his former discussion site, but on http://www.xoxohth.com there's actually a business section. it's labeled "Biz" on the homepage. i don't know if they have the rankings, but it's where people on that site go to talk about business school.

Have you switched over from the dark side? If so welcome!




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests