Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

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samar island
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby samar island » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:24 pm

Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close. It has a great location too. The campus is beautiful --very conducive or learning. The students are nice, supportive and more down-to-earth, yet extremely smart and very well-connected. The alumni support is active. You can't go wrong with Berkeley.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:28 pm

samar island wrote:Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close. It has a great location too. The campus is beautiful --very conducive or learning. The students are nice, supportive and more down-to-earth, yet extremely smart and very well-connected. The alumni support is active. You can't go wrong with Berkeley.


(1) "It's more prestigious than Columbia." -- Very debatable.
(2) "The campus is beautiful --very conducive or learning." -- Many people think Berkeley's buildings are not as nice as CLS's.

I agree they are both great schools, but just pointing out things that other TLSers have historically not necessarily agreed with.

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spinsta
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby spinsta » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:34 pm

kurla88 wrote:I can understand wanting to get out of the city where you've lived so long, but I really don't feel like this is a question... for the same price Columbia provides way better opportunities, especially for clerkships and other prestige-driven jobs you mentioned. Having your support group there will also be really nice.

Negotiate for some scholarship money at Penn or Berkeley... then they'll be options.


My understanding is that it's pretty much on par with NYU, if anything. Certainly not "way better."

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MeTalkPrettyOneDay
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:36 pm

samar island wrote:Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close.

You must be joking. Don't get me wrong, both are fantastic schools with very strong international reputations. However, I'd argue that CLS may have a slightly stronger international reputation. To say that Berkeley somehow has a much stronger international reputation than Columbia is just ludicrous.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby aryncita » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:38 pm

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Last edited by aryncita on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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samar island
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby samar island » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:55 pm

MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
samar island wrote:Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close.

You must be joking. Don't get me wrong, both are fantastic schools with very strong international reputations. However, I'd argue that CLS may have a slightly stronger international reputation. To say that Berkeley somehow has a much stronger international reputation than Columbia is just ludicrous.


Trust me; the Berkeley name is more prestigious than the Columbia name internationally. Berkeley is as a solid top 7/8 schools in the world, or on par with Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge. Columbia is certainly not in their league, but should be in the top 20 on global scale.

As for law, they're pretty even.

I was just pointing out the poster who said that Columbia has a bigger name than has Berkeley. No its not. Berkeley is a bigger name as a whole. But I think much of its reputation comes from being a world-class science and engineering school. Regardless, it has a bigger name than Columbia as a whole.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:57 pm

samar island wrote:
MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
samar island wrote:Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close.

You must be joking. Don't get me wrong, both are fantastic schools with very strong international reputations. However, I'd argue that CLS may have a slightly stronger international reputation. To say that Berkeley somehow has a much stronger international reputation than Columbia is just ludicrous.


Trust me; the Berkeley name is more prestigious than the Columbia name internationally. Berkeley is as a solid top 7/8 schools in the world, or on par with Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge. Columbia is certainly not in their league, but should be in the top 20 on global scale.

As for law, they're pretty even.

I was just pointing out the poster who said that Columbia has a bigger name than has Berkeley. No its not. Berkeley is a bigger name as a whole. But I think much of its reputation comes from being a world-class science and engineering school. Regardless, it has a bigger name than Columbia as a whole.


Yes, but by that measure, Michigan and UCLA may also be "bigger names" than Columbia as a whole. Unless they OP is going to do IP law, I don't think that should play a large role in their decision.

sbalive
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby sbalive » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:04 pm

huckabees wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
huckabees wrote:
Go_Cardinals wrote:I would agree there is a marginal advantage to columbia, but its mostly because of the reputation of the undergraduate campus, not the law school.

@ the point where this is the 100th thread with these same 2 schools, i think its clear the same kids are getting into both. IE the schools are about equal. The legal community at large is not dumb.

Those statistics you site on firm placement is mostly self-selection. As for clerkships and academia, the vault rankings show the schools as being by percent (remember columbia is almost twice the size of cal) almost identitical. Columbia has a slight edge, however Cal has a better slope.


I think a large number get into both, but it is clear from LSN that there are also plenty who are admitted to Berkeley and not to CLS.


And then there are plenty of people who get into CLS but not Berkeley, because according to Berkeley's "holistic approach," they are not good enough human beings :twisted:


This is true too.

(Are you speaking from personal experience or do you just enjoy that emoticon? :wink: )

Although I'm sure this will be disputed, I think Berkeley also gives a significantly greater advantage to earlier applicants than CLS does.


I am in the boat of people who didn't get into Berkeley but got into Columbia. Not sure if I applied late (Dec.). So, I'm biased against Berkeley. Although, the notion that Berkeley has a bigger name than Columbia due to its world-class reputation in science and engineering is a little odd. (Oh, and re: doing IP - unless your life goal is to sit around and read electrical engineering patents all day, Columbia's faculty and offerings are much more dynamic, straddling copyright-patent-trademark law in a broad range of areas.)

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MeTalkPrettyOneDay
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:08 pm

samar island wrote:
MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
samar island wrote:Go to Berkeley Law. It's more prestigious than Columbia. The Berkeley name is world renowned more so than Columbia is. In the international scene, it's not even close.

You must be joking. Don't get me wrong, both are fantastic schools with very strong international reputations. However, I'd argue that CLS may have a slightly stronger international reputation. To say that Berkeley somehow has a much stronger international reputation than Columbia is just ludicrous.


Trust me; the Berkeley name is more prestigious than the Columbia name internationally. Berkeley is as a solid top 7/8 schools in the world, or on par with Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge. Columbia is certainly not in their league, but should be in the top 20 on global scale.

As for law, they're pretty even.

I was just pointing out the poster who said that Columbia has a bigger name than has Berkeley. No its not. Berkeley is a bigger name as a whole. But I think much of its reputation comes from being a world-class science and engineering school. Regardless, it has a bigger name than Columbia as a whole.

I assumed your comment was in reference to their respective law schools. I now see that your comment was in reference to the broader universities. In regard to the broader universities, I'll admit that I don't really know enough to comment. US News, for what it's worth, disagrees with your analysis. In its "World's Best Colleges and Universities" ranking, Columbia University comes in at 10 and UC Berkeley is 36. http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-colleges/2008/11/20/worlds-best-colleges-and-universities-top-200.html?loomia_ow=t10:sa:a41:g29:r1:c0.587070:b20174415&s_cid=loomia:about-the-worlds-best-colleges-rankings

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby Go_Cardinals » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:10 pm

yes - that is what USNEWS, an american publication wrote. The other poster however is making reference to the global rankings done by non-US sources, like those circulated throughout Europe in Asia that have Berkeley Oxford Harvard and MIT as the four best universities in the world.

Ultimately, Columbia's reputation is better domestically, Cal's is better internationally.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:11 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:yes - that is what USNEWS, an american publication wrote. The other poster however is making reference to the global rankings done by non-US sources, like those circulated throughout Europe in Asia that have Berkeley Oxford Harvard and MIT as the four best universities in the world.

Ultimately, Columbia's reputation is better domestically, Cal's is better internationally.


Now what is wrong with this list...?

:|

I'm sure Yale and Stanford aren't world renowned institutions...


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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:15 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:see ...

http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008_A(EN).htm


I understand the sources of these opinions as these have been cited on TLS before, and I am not saying that you are absolutely wrong, but that is a list that caters heavily to a certain audience (mainly, East Asian science-oriented community).

Moreover, those rankings may have to do with FACULTY and RESEARCH rather than what a person thinks of a student who graduates from that school.

As in, it is consistent for someone to believe in those rankings AND think that a Yale grad is on average superior to a Berkeley grad. I believe THAT is what matters most in hiring decisions.
Last edited by huckabees on Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sbalive
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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby sbalive » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:15 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:yes - that is what USNEWS, an american publication wrote. The other poster however is making reference to the global rankings done by non-US sources, like those circulated throughout Europe in Asia that have Berkeley Oxford Harvard and MIT as the four best universities in the world.

Ultimately, Columbia's reputation is better domestically, Cal's is better internationally.


This is absurd. In the THES rankings, Columbia is #10 and Berkeley is #36. In the deeply stupid Shanghai rankings, Berkeley is #3 and Columbia is #7. I'm not sure this translates into anything, because again, those rankings are based on a laughable methodology. Besides, Berkeley is constantly losing faculty in raid after raid, and the only thing keeping it attractive is the UC pension plan, which is not nearly what it once was.
Last edited by sbalive on Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby Go_Cardinals » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:16 pm

it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:17 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.


Is there a link to this?

Thanks

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby Go_Cardinals » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:18 pm

all the rankings, USNEWS included, is based on laughable criteria. They have value because we give them value. These two schools are both good. I got into both. Some got into Berkeley and not Columbia, others got into Columbia but not Berkeley. When it goes both ways, can we just agree the two schools in terms of law are nearly the same?

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby sbalive » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:23 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.


By this logic, there's a marginal difference between Columbia and HYS.

And, here is the asinine Shanghai ranking methodology:

Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (10%), Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (20%), Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories (20%), Articles published in Nature and Science (20%), Articles indexed in Science Citation Index-expanded, and Social Science Citation Index (20%), Per capita academic performance of an institution (10%)

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:24 pm

sbalive wrote:
Go_Cardinals wrote:it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.


By this logic, there's a marginal difference between Columbia and HYS.

And, here is the asinine Shanghai ranking methodology:

Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (10%), Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (20%), Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories (20%), Articles published in Nature and Science (20%), Articles indexed in Science Citation Index-expanded, and Social Science Citation Index (20%), Per capita academic performance of an institution (10%)


Exactly as I said in my earlier post -- has to do with faculty and research more than anything else.

Again, that doesn't mean people think a Berkeley grad is as good or better than a Yale grad, which would be implied by what you were saying earlier.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby Go_Cardinals » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:25 pm

1) I would argue there is a marginal difference. less marginal, but marginal nonetheless.

2) That methodology seems reasonable to me. Just as much as say any other I've seen for national rankings.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:25 pm

Go_Cardinals wrote:it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.

And here's a British ranking that puts Columbia way above Berkeley: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=243&pubCode=1

But listen, you missed a KEY portion of my earlier post. When presenting the US News list, I said, "US News, for what it's worth, disagrees with your analysis." Since apparently you need me to break it down for you: yes, I realize US News may approach its rankings with a US-centric bias; yes, I know rankings have their flaws; no, I don't present US News' "Worlds Best Colleges and Universities" as the gospel of international university rankings. I was simply pointing out that at least one ranking of universities disagreed that Berkeley > Columbia. As my other link (above) shows, apparently at least one non-US ranking agrees.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby Go_Cardinals » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:26 pm

If a school is superior, its logical to follow then that people think of it in higher esteem. I am not sure how you did on the Logical Reasoning section of the LSAT. And btw, isn't that what we should be choosing schools by, the quality of the institution?

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby huckabees » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:28 pm

MeTalkPrettyOneDay wrote:
Go_Cardinals wrote:it also happens to reflect the general perception of the global community. oxford puts out a ranking almost identical. Look WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?!

We aren't talking about the schools at large, but the law schools. 4 and 6 respectively in USNews. Any difference between to the two schools is marginal at best.

And here's a British ranking that puts Columbia way above Berkeley: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=243&pubCode=1

But listen, you missed a KEY portion of my earlier post. When presenting the US News list, I said, "US News, for what it's worth, disagrees with your analysis." Since apparently you need me to break it down for you: yes, I realize US News may approach its rankings with a US-centric bias; yes, I know rankings have their flaws; no, I don't present US News' "Worlds Best Colleges and Universities" as the gospel of international university rankings. I was simply pointing out that at least one ranking of universities disagreed that Berkeley > Columbia. As my other link (above) shows, apparently at least one non-US ranking agrees.


The rankings that MeTalkPrettyOneDay are way more reasonable than the Chinese rankings in the criteria used.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby sophie316 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:34 pm

Internationally I would say the difference between the name value of NYU, Columbia and Berkeley is minimal at best outside of people already well acquainted with the schools.

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Re: Yet another...Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn vs. Berkeley

Postby imchuckbass58 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:35 pm

Shit. Just got an email reminding me that the Berkeley response deadline is April 15th.....definitely thought it was May 1st......

Guess my decision making period just compressed....




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