UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

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markymark2
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby markymark2 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:55 pm

legends159 wrote:
masterpinky0509 wrote:Depends on what you want to do.

If you want to do public interest as one of the above posters stated, then being debt-free really helps. You should check out "Broken Contract," an interesting book on HLS that describes how the large debt load and prestige obsession of many HLS'ers sort of 'infects' them with the desire to go into corporate law. It basically looks at how, upon entry into law school, something like 70% claim to be going for public interest; 3 years later, they all go work for Wachtell.


QFT!

If PI is really your thing, then cracking the T14 is arguably sufficient.


I haven't read the book, but it's worth assuming at least some (and I imagine many) of the students in that 70% knew they weren't going to do public interest work from the get go, but said that's what they wanted to do in their personal statements. I don't imagine the "I want to be rich and have good job security" corporate law essay is very well received by admissions committees. I'll bet a vast majority of that 70% were smart enough to know that.

If you're smart enough to get into all these schools, you should be smart enough to achieve whatever your career goals are regardless of which school you chose. For instance, I think UVA has four clerks for the supreme court this year. The people getting those spots got them because they're outstanding across the board. Same goes for those who get these prestigious positions from Harvard. They're getting these jobs because of who they are, not because they chose Harvard over another very prestigious law school. That's just my opinion, though.

It certainly would be hard to turn down that prestige, but if that's what you're worried about, rest assured that you can always tell peoplee you got into harvard, but chose UVA... or go to Harvard and make lay people swoon for the rest of your life. Tough choice. I might go with harvard and take the debt.

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Dialogue
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Dialogue » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:05 pm

I'd go to Stanford. Palo Alto and palm trees, surfing, and all that cool Spanish-influenced architecture. Do it.

pomona
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby pomona » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:16 pm

markymark2 wrote:
legends159 wrote:
masterpinky0509 wrote:Depends on what you want to do.

If you want to do public interest as one of the above posters stated, then being debt-free really helps. You should check out "Broken Contract," an interesting book on HLS that describes how the large debt load and prestige obsession of many HLS'ers sort of 'infects' them with the desire to go into corporate law. It basically looks at how, upon entry into law school, something like 70% claim to be going for public interest; 3 years later, they all go work for Wachtell.


QFT!

If PI is really your thing, then cracking the T14 is arguably sufficient.


I haven't read the book, but it's worth assuming at least some (and I imagine many) of the students in that 70% knew they weren't going to do public interest work from the get go, but said that's what they wanted to do in their personal statements. I don't imagine the "I want to be rich and have good job security" corporate law essay is very well received by admissions committees. I'll bet a vast majority of that 70% were smart enough to know that.

If you're smart enough to get into all these schools, you should be smart enough to achieve whatever your career goals are regardless of which school you chose. For instance, I think UVA has four clerks for the supreme court this year. The people getting those spots got them because they're outstanding across the board. Same goes for those who get these prestigious positions from Harvard. They're getting these jobs because of who they are, not because they chose Harvard over another very prestigious law school. That's just my opinion, though.

It certainly would be hard to turn down that prestige, but if that's what you're worried about, rest assured that you can always tell peoplee you got into harvard, but chose UVA... or go to Harvard and make lay people swoon for the rest of your life. Tough choice. I might go with harvard and take the debt.

While this is true, I think one of the big issues is that attending one school will make it much easier to achieve those goals than the other.

gcf3f
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby gcf3f » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:02 pm

what about quality of life? any word on how happy people are at harvard vs uva??

also, one more piece of info, in want to settle in the general dc area

Pearalegal
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:04 pm

gcf3f wrote:what about quality of life? any word on how happy people are at harvard vs uva??

also, one more piece of info, in want to settle in the general dc area


UVA. This is just from my experience....but I work in the DC legal world (biglaw though, not PI), and theres special affection for UVA grads.

Pumpkin
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Pumpkin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:11 pm

then i would go uva too. if i had a location preference like that for after school, it'd be enough to push me in the scholarship direction. surprisingly, detroit is not calling me after law school so i can't use the same criterion!

gcf3f
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby gcf3f » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:20 pm

Pearalegal,


any comments on biglaw quality of life in dc? im hoping to work in the us attorneys office one day but you need a few years experience first so im interested in how bearable dc big law is

Kong456
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Kong456 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:36 pm

Just found this ancient but very helpful thread.

Anyone have any new insight into this question? I'm basically in this boat, except that I'm not accepted at Stanford.

dakatz
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby dakatz » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:38 pm

UVA without a doubt. Do well there and you will be golden, plus you will have no debt. No reason to fork out so much to go to Stanford instead. My buddy went to Harvard Law and graduated ten years ago. He said his biggest regret was not going to one of the many lower T-14's that offered him full rides. He could have gone to G-Town, Duke, or Michigan for free but payed full price at Harvard.

omg
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby omg » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:43 pm

UVA. I went to Harvard undergrad and am now at UVA law. I would choose UVA for about a billion reasons related to quality-of-life/general atmosphere of the universities. With your situation of free tuition at UVA, it would make the choice all the more clear (to me, haha).

Like the prev poster said, if you do well at UVA (which you will), you'll have tons of opportunities. Since I'm just a 1L, I can't speak to exactly how the opportunities for someone at the top of their class at UVA compare with those for someone at the median at Harvard, but I would guess that they're near equal.

Obviously, other considerations that could make a big difference include your quality-of-life preferences and what markets you're looking at...

Kong456
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Kong456 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:45 pm

dakatz wrote:UVA without a doubt. Do well there and you will be golden, plus you will have no debt. No reason to fork out so much to go to Stanford instead. My buddy went to Harvard Law and graduated ten years ago. He said his biggest regret was not going to one of the many lower T-14's that offered him full rides. He could have gone to G-Town, Duke, or Michigan for free but payed full price at Harvard.


Thanks! What area of law does your buddy work in? Did he find that Harvard didn't give him much of a leg up in this area?

FWIW, my ideal job would be at DOJ or some other high-profile government agency.

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Cavalier
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Cavalier » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:52 pm

I would take a full ride at any T10 school over Harvard or Stanford. Yes, a Harvard degree will open more doors than a UVA degree, but graduating with little debt will enable you do many things that someone graduating with $180,000 in debt will not be able to do. Unless you are determined to go for a CoA clerkship and then bounce between top government jobs and private practice before ending up as a CoA judge, or to make partner at Wachtell, attending UVA over Harvard will not be very detrimental to your goals.

You will have more fun at UVA, and you will not be as stressed out since you won't have the same financial concerns as you would at Harvard. Also, I'm not sure if there's much to the theory that people with higher LSAT scores and GPAs do better in law school, but at UVA you will probably have strong numbers compared to your classmates, so...

sfdreaming09
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby sfdreaming09 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:05 pm

Harvard or Stanford without a doubt. You will have a long career and if H/S opens even a few more doors than UVA, then I think it would be worth it.

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EijiMiyake
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby EijiMiyake » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:09 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Harvard or Stanford without a doubt. You will have a long career and if H/S opens even a few more doors than UVA, then I think it would be worth it.


I don't think it's that easy. I agree that Harvard/Stanford on your resume would be amazing for the rest of your career - but being debt-free can lead to a lot of flexibility in your first job, which then leads to your next job, etc.

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im_blue
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby im_blue » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:10 pm

You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.

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EijiMiyake
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby EijiMiyake » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:11 pm

im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.



As far as I know, HLS stopped offering the third year for free.

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby reasonabledoubt » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:16 pm

I don't want to start a new thread for this so please excuse my hijacking of this one to ask this question: Is it possible to get a scholarship from a school after your 1L?

In other words... if you climb to the top of your 1L class and are wearing a t-shirt saying "transferring to t-14" during the last few weeks, would a school ever consider offering a scholarship to the student? (retainer!) ;)

Kong456
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Kong456 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:17 pm

im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.


Does your first sentence imply that Harvard will give need-based grants for anything over 33K? That is assuming you have 0 assets, etc.

lawyering
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby lawyering » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:21 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:
im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.



As far as I know, HLS stopped offering the third year for free.


This is true. That program only applies to those graduating 2011 and 2012, not 2013. However, HLS is going to unveil their successor program by March 2010. I'm pretty sure it's not going to be anything near the price of the 3L year, though.

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im_blue
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby im_blue » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:22 pm

Kong456 wrote:
im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.


Does your first sentence imply that Harvard will give need-based grants for anything over 33K? That is assuming you have 0 assets, etc.


That's correct, anything past $32,700 will be need-based grants, so your max debt is $98k.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... aging.html

oh_dear
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby oh_dear » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:40 pm

I can't believe this hasn't been said yet, but you need to VISIT all three schools before you write any of them off.

Kong456
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby Kong456 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:48 pm

I will definitely visit both schools. But if it's true that Harvard's debt burden will max out at ~100K (or less with the new PI program), then it's probably a no-brainer to go there, given that I'll have to borrow 50K or so for COL at UVA.

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EijiMiyake
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby EijiMiyake » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:48 pm

im_blue wrote:
Kong456 wrote:
im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.


Does your first sentence imply that Harvard will give need-based grants for anything over 33K? That is assuming you have 0 assets, etc.


That's correct, anything past $32,700 will be need-based grants, so your max debt is $98k.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... aging.html


I don't think that's completely right - if you look at the bottom, it says:

* To replace student contribution or assessed parent resources, students may borrow supplemental education loans, seek outside scholarships, and/or seek part-time employment. All supplemental borrowing to cover a parent resource assessment is eligible for loan repayment assistance under the Low Income Protection Plan; however, supplemental loan borrowing to cover an expected student contribution, while permissible, is not eligible for loan repayment assistance under the Low Income Protection Plan.

I don't know quite know how assessed parent resources is going to work - but I imagine that some students (like me) will not be asking/getting any parent contribution, even though FAFSA leaves us with a non-zero parent contribution.
Last edited by EijiMiyake on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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im_blue
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby im_blue » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:55 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Kong456 wrote:
im_blue wrote:You should look into need-based aid at Harvard, which caps its loan packages at around $33k/year. If you get 3L free by committing to PI, then the cost difference is only $66k.


Does your first sentence imply that Harvard will give need-based grants for anything over 33K? That is assuming you have 0 assets, etc.


That's correct, anything past $32,700 will be need-based grants, so your max debt is $98k.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... aging.html


I don't think that's completely write - if you look at the bottom, it says:

* To replace student contribution or assessed parent resources, students may borrow supplemental education loans, seek outside scholarships, and/or seek part-time employment. All supplemental borrowing to cover a parent resource assessment is eligible for loan repayment assistance under the Low Income Protection Plan; however, supplemental loan borrowing to cover an expected student contribution, while permissible, is not eligible for loan repayment assistance under the Low Income Protection Plan.

I don't know quite know how assessed parent resources is going to work - but I imagine that some students (like me) will not be asking/getting any parent contribution, even though FAFSA leaves us with a non-zero parent contribution.

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englawyer
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Re: UVA tuition free or stanford/harvard full tuition

Postby englawyer » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:03 pm

reasonabledoubt wrote:I don't want to start a new thread for this so please excuse my hijacking of this one to ask this question: Is it possible to get a scholarship from a school after your 1L?

In other words... if you climb to the top of your 1L class and are wearing a t-shirt saying "transferring to t-14" during the last few weeks, would a school ever consider offering a scholarship to the student? (retainer!) ;)


i am pretty sure schollys are given to 0L for the boost in 1L stats (for US news). therefore there is no real incentive to try and keep you around aside from the (slightly) increased chance you will go on to become a legal superstar and donate $$$$$$ to the school/make them famous. that marginal increase probably isn't enough to dole out $$$ to you though.




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