Berkeley Law or Stanford?

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Genki
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby Genki » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:01 pm

Stanford, but you can't go wrong either way.

unlawfool2010
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby unlawfool2010 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:45 pm

I successfully negotiated with Berkeley to give me some scholarship merit-based money (as a transfer student)! WOohooo!

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underdawg
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby underdawg » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:37 pm

That means even Berkeley admits you should've gone to Stanford (with no money on the table). Congrats! How much?

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Vanitas
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby Vanitas » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:43 pm

unlawfool2010 wrote:I successfully negotiated with Berkeley to give me some scholarship merit-based money (as a transfer student)! WOohooo!

Congratulations! There are definitely appreciable differences between studying at Stanford and at Berkeley, so it is good that you are taking the time to weigh the merits of each school without defaulting to the more prestigious one. I hear the profs at Stanford are notorious for getting so wrapped up in their own scholarship that they fail to take an active interest in their students, and this seems like a major downside to going there. The Boalt students I've met seemed more like my type of people, and I could definitely see myself picking their school over SLS with the right amount of money. It seems like it would be impossible to say no to Stanford, though... :|

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Vanitas
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby Vanitas » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:49 pm

underdawg wrote:That means even Berkeley admits you should've gone to Stanford (with no money on the table). Congrats! How much?

This is a weird way of looking at scholarship offers. I think the offer just means Berkeley admits that they are afraid they could lose an a potential student to Stanford (which the OP probably indicated when negotiating), and that they are willing to do what they can to ensure that this does not happen.

unlawfool2010
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby unlawfool2010 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:03 pm

They didn't give me much, but they only offer one scholarship for transfer student, so I'm fortunate to receive it.

That said, I'm still torn because many attorneys I talked to told me downright to choose Stanford. One even offered to loan me money! And I don't even know him that well. I met him once, but he was serious about lending me money for school.

Plus, Stanford offers more classes that I would enjoy. I need to make a decision by the end of next week. My deposit for Stanford is due by August 4, I believe, but bidding for OCI ends on July 31st.

parkway45
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby parkway45 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:36 pm

Vanitas wrote:
unlawfool2010 wrote:I successfully negotiated with Berkeley to give me some scholarship merit-based money (as a transfer student)! WOohooo!

Congratulations! There are definitely appreciable differences between studying at Stanford and at Berkeley, so it is good that you are taking the time to weigh the merits of each school without defaulting to the more prestigious one. I hear the profs at Stanford are notorious for getting so wrapped up in their own scholarship that they fail to take an active interest in their students, and this seems like a major downside to going there. The Boalt students I've met seemed more like my type of people, and I could definitely see myself picking their school over SLS with the right amount of money. It seems like it would be impossible to say no to Stanford, though... :|


From my own experience, and this (admittedly silly source), I disagree about teaching and SLS:
Princeton Review survey (scale from 60 to 99) says:
Stanford: Professors Interesting: 98. Professors Accessible: 97.


FWIW, I passed up full ride to Berkeley for SLS. But I've made plenty of rash decisions in my day too...

If you plan on working a firm job, 10,000 bucks isn't really all that much in the long run, but whatever you decide, you will be fine (unless you are in the bottom of your class maybe)

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underdawg
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby underdawg » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:44 pm

Keep in mind that Princeton Review also says NU is the #1 school in terms of career opportunities.

USCtrojan86
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby USCtrojan86 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:06 am

This thread seems a little silly.

Berkeley is a great school...Stanford is just an objectively better school in pretty much every single way.

Both are in a similar part of the country with similar climates. The differences? (Besides the fact that Berkeley is kind of crazy and Palo Alto is very much not):

*Stanford is "more national", as has been mentioned (arguably in reputation as a school, and almost certainly in the representation within the studeny body). You can argue self selection, and both schools do place well throughout the country - but that's kind of like saying that Duke and Harvard both place well throughout the country, IMO. It's true, but it's not the whole story.

*Stanford is private, Berkeley is public. Personally, as much as I love and support the philosophy of quality public education, I worry about the corrosive effects of being "public" and dealing with what that actually entails on prestigious universities in the years to come as they have to compete with the enormous endowments of the great privates. Look at USC's rise and UCLA's fall in the undergrad rankings, for example. I'm not saying Berkeley is destined to suck or something, but it would be a concern for me all the same.

*Stanford is consistently ranked #2 or #3 in the country. Berkeley ranges from outside the top 10 (as recently as 2005) to #6 this year. That's a wide, wide range. I personally value consistency, being a risk averse kind of guy.

*Stanford is a smaller school, and matches or exceeds the placement and job opportunities of Berkeley in pretty much every respect that I can think of. You will not get opporunities coming out of Berkeley that would be impossible coming out of Stanford...I don't think the reverse could be said to be true.

Full Disclosure: I picked UofC with money over Berkeley with nothing this past cycle. However, had Stanford been on the table for me, I probably would have chosen it over UofC even if no money was offered - and I certainly would have picked it over Berkeley.

jasonjuicer
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby jasonjuicer » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:34 pm

I just like stanford better.

Mod note: Don't advertise.

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aquarium_drinker
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby aquarium_drinker » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:56 pm

jasonjuicer wrote:I just like stanford better.

____________


Quality contribution.

Ban?

USCtrojan86
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby USCtrojan86 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:00 pm

1) Undergrad =/= law school.


Did I ever say otherwise? However, IMO the quality of the graduate programs at a given school will tend to be tied to the quality of the undergrad program in the long run, because it is the undergrad which gives a school its image, prestige, and reputation.

Exceptions like Wharton Business/NYU Law are just that.

And even if we're looking at undergrad and law, UCLA trumps USC in both respects despite USC's rise and UCLA's ever-so-slight "fall" in undergrad rankings.


This is a joke, yes?

UCLA Law>USC Law. I've never suggested otherwise, because it's objectively true as far as I'm concerned.

Are you man enough to face the hard numbers on undergrad like I am on law?

If you want to compare the SAT/GPA metrics for the last few incoming USC/UCLA classes, I'd love to discuss this with you further (unless you don't think that undergrad programs care about those pesky little number things anymore, or that those numbers signify anything about the prestige, quality and selectiveness of an undergrad program).

USC and UCLA undergrad are, by just about every single metric, almost exact peer schools. And where one trumps another in a metric or a specialty, it's not always UCLA on the winning side. How this somehow proves that UCLA beats USC in both undergrad rankings and law rankings is beyond me, but then again, I admit that I am but a humble USC graduate.

2) UCLA has consistently ranked higher than USC, for let's see...throughout US News history?


Uh huh. UCLA also used to be listed as a Top 10 USNWR school back in the 90's. You know, back when USC was a decent but not impressive safety backup for rich kids and athletes.

And yet at the same time that USC has risen more than 10 spots in the rankings (and stayed there), UCLA has fallen much more than 10 spots (and also stayed there).

I suppose these trends mean nothing, however, because UCLA IS STILL (barely) AHEAD!!! W00T BRUINS!!!

(For the record, I don't think UCLA's fall in the rankings is due to anything other than the increased competitiveness of once-mediocre private schools with deep pockets like SC, who are increasingly buying themselves top students and an academic reputation to match. UCLA is still a great school, and unlike too many of the pro-Bruin, USC SUX LOL haters on here, I'm fairminded enough to admit that outright.)

3) I know you're talking about undergrad, but let's mention the various other rankings that exist which favor UCLA over USC: THES ranks UCLA over USC by approximately 70 places; Shianghai Jiao Tong University ranks UCLA a good 30 spots ahead of USC.
Yes, privates tend to be higher ranked than publics partly due to endowments and there may be a risk of publics' decline in rankings, but comparing USC and UCLA does not substantiate this argument since I doubt that USC will surpass UCLA in our lifetime.


Yes. Because I deeply care what foreign rankings make of American Universities. Just like I deeply care what foreigners think of American domestic policy and what Europeans think of Obama/McCain. :roll:

I'm sure objectively amazing schools that happen to not have the same degree of visibility of some of their peers (say, idk, UPenn or UVA or Chicago (those are all state schools, right?) vs...OMG BERKELEY OMG!!11) overseas are treated fairly.

Or perhaps it could be that those polls are also imperfect and flawed, just like USNWR and many American rankings? (Naw, probably not - they're INTERNATIONAL!)

And I'm sure the fact that USC is a relatively new name in the Top 30 and reputation tends to follow far behind and linger long in academic circles has nothing to do with USC underperforming relative to UCLA (which has had standing equal or greater to its reputation now for decades)?

I'm not sure exactly what I should take away from what you're citing, especially given the fact that you seem intent on ignoring the metrics that are ACTUALLY cited most often here in America as a shorthand for "prestige", "selectiveness" and "student body quality" - HS GPA/SAT scores for matriculating freshmen.

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nipplehead
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby nipplehead » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:03 pm

let's not forget that USC football kills UCLA football, as that is perhaps the most important ranking

USCtrojan86
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby USCtrojan86 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:07 pm

Agreed.

I also suspect that USC song girls> UCLA cheerleaders as well, but I will need much, much more prolonged and careful scrutiny to verify that...It'll be a hassle, but I guess I can suck it up and take one for the team...I'll issue my report in a few hours :D :D :D

dude
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby dude » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:13 pm

Both schools are fantastic. And I think that this would have to be a very personal decision...

parkway45
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby parkway45 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:24 pm

Unless you like Berkeley a ton, this isn't too hard of a call. While I think Berkeley is tops at grad programs, it's professional schools (i guess business and law) lag behind the rest of the schools programs.

Eremite
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby Eremite » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:38 am

Assume you have tons of friends at Berkeley already and no friends at Stanford.


Who the @#$% cares? I had 2L friends at my law school before coming. We have had a hearty 5 minutes' worth of conversation in my entire first year. They work, I work. We are now hi-bye friends.

Stanford.

I would choose Berkeley because I am a firm believer in the power of public education.


Asinine reason to attend any school. If you believe in public education, send them a check.

This is like choosing a school because you like their mascot. Maybe I am wrong, but when you go to your classes at Berkeley do you think they are going to start off by saying "This is the public school way to teach contracts." Maybe, but I doubt it.

The price difference will not, in the end come out to much. I know they are throwing some cheaper tuition your way, but at top firm wages, you are talking about a couple months' pay tops.

You still have to pay to live in the Bay Area regardless.

It may help if you tell what type of law your are interested in.

Oh, and well done on a stellar transfer. That means we are talking less money.

That means even Berkeley admits you should've gone to Stanford


That is kind of true.

Listen, you can't go wrong. You could flip a coin, throw a dart, or sacrifice a chicken to Gozar the Gozarian, but in the end, both schools are top shelf, and you have done your mom proud.

That being said . . . Stanford!

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cfishy305
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby cfishy305 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:08 pm

UCLA girls > USC girls

gg.

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nipplehead
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby nipplehead » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:24 pm

cfishy305 wrote:UCLA girls > USC girls

gg.


6 of one, half a dozen of the other

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LaffyTaffy
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby LaffyTaffy » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:43 pm

Go to Berkeley. Stanford strikes me as a place where all the kids are faux diverse. Plus, I hate John Elway.

unlawfool2010
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Re: Berkeley Law or Stanford?

Postby unlawfool2010 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:55 pm

I finally decided on Stanford...mainly because they gave me more money so it made my decision VERY easy! =)

p.s. Funny how this thread went off on a tangent by comparing UCLA and USC. I actually graduated from UCLA! =)




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