Fordham a TTT school?

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Forham = TTT?

Yes
43
29%
No
103
71%
 
Total votes: 146

krystal82
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby krystal82 » Thu May 22, 2008 3:17 pm

Thanks, good luck to you at UCLA! It sounds like a great place. Are you from Cali? I'll be visiting LA this summer for the first time, what are some good spots to check out?

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Muhammad Ali
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Muhammad Ali » Sat May 24, 2008 11:23 am

krystal82 wrote:However i'm willing to take a huge pay check cut to be in NY. I wasn't brought up in affulence and 60k is still decent money, you just may have to live outside the city.

You're in for a big shock, Reba.

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20090922
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby 20090922 » Sat May 24, 2008 12:04 pm

krystal82 wrote:If I was concerned exclusively with big law you might be right. However i'm willing to take a huge pay check cut to be in NY. I wasn't brought up in affulence and 60k is still decent money, you just may have to live outside the city.

Yea, have fun with an hour long commute back and forth standing around in dirty, hot, smelly, slow, crowded trains when your rent and taxes leave you with less than 20k for the year to live on. Subtract all other costs (transportation, food, paying off student loans) and you're looking at 5k in savings for the year. Sounds like fun! Oh wait, you won't be having any of that unless you want to be perpetually broke.

60k is decent anywhere but NYC. Out of undergrad, earning 60k in NYC is fine, but definitely isn't worth getting paid 60k to be in NYC after you drop close to half a mil to go to school for seven years (public interest aside).

Player30
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Player30 » Sat May 24, 2008 4:06 pm

Well, if you are in the Northeast, you got NYC, Boston, Philly, and DC. Those are the options. Philly is the most affordable, but it can be an acquired taste. Boston and DC are actually tougher legal markets than NYC, from what I hear.

krystal82
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby krystal82 » Sat May 24, 2008 4:16 pm

Wow, I seem to have struck a cord. Well let me clarify, I currently live in NYC, and I'm well aware of the costs and the commute, so I doubt it would be such a shock. As for loans, I have no undergrad debt and law school will run me around 90k with living expenses, still considerable, but no where near half a mil.

My decision was not based on being in the glamorous NYC, but rather be in the city that I grew up in, where my friends and family are. I'm well aware of the realities of NY. And 60k even in NY is not poverty.
Last edited by krystal82 on Sat May 24, 2008 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rosetta
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby rosetta » Sat May 24, 2008 4:30 pm

krystal82 wrote:My decision was not based on, being in the glamorous NYC, but rather be in the city that I grew up in where my friends and family are. I'm well aware of the realities of NY. And 60k even in NY is not poverty.


I agree with this part entirely since I'm in the exact same situation, and hence I chose Fordham over Cornell. Fordham is NOT a TTT school. I think this entire thread is absurdly ridiculous. It's #27 in the country according to US News. It was #25 last year. Aside from the rankings, the school's offerings and job placement are amazing. It may be lesser known outside of NYC, but it is building a national reputation.

krystal82
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby krystal82 » Sat May 24, 2008 4:39 pm

rosetta, you decided on Fordham? Hope to see you there!

Player30
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Player30 » Sat May 24, 2008 5:03 pm

As someone who just got rejected from Fordham, my top choice, I can safely say that I don't understand the people who warn everyone not to go to NYC. Sure, the legal market is tough, but Boston, DC, Chicago are at least as tough from what I hear. Most young, single people in the Northeast are not going to move to Ohio or Kentucky or Kansas just to become a lawyer. I certainly won't. And many people would rather compete in NYC, living paycheck to paycheck, than living in the Midwest or South and making lots. It's just the way it is.

I'm stuck considering a bunch of T2's in the Northeast. It isn't great, but it is either that or don't become a lawyer.

mzing12
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby mzing12 » Sat May 24, 2008 6:41 pm

Yeah, I think the people who make the worst cases about NYC are the people who've never lived here. It's probably shocking to them that there are poeple who grew up in or around NYC, and so attend the regional schools there. Who's going to give up their family, friends, loved ones, etc., to go to Kansas's supposedly booming legal job market? Only an idiot.

What people also don't realize is that there are tons of lucrative jobs you can get even with a shitty JD degree; freelance brief writer, legal copywriter, etc., all close to 6 figures in salary, and you aren't going to find jobs like that in a cornfield in Ohio. Do you have to hustle? Hell yeah, but it's like that in every field.

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luckynumber8s
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby luckynumber8s » Sat May 24, 2008 6:44 pm

rosetta wrote:
krystal82 wrote:My decision was not based on, being in the glamorous NYC, but rather be in the city that I grew up in where my friends and family are. I'm well aware of the realities of NY. And 60k even in NY is not poverty.


I agree with this part entirely since I'm in the exact same situation, and hence I chose Fordham over Cornell. Fordham is NOT a TTT school. I think this entire thread is absurdly ridiculous. It's #27 in the country according to US News. It was #25 last year. Aside from the rankings, the school's offerings and job placement are amazing. It may be lesser known outside of NYC, but it is building a national reputation.


I thought anything less than T14 was TTT? I chose not going to law school (for another year) over Fordham.

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20090922
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby 20090922 » Sat May 24, 2008 6:54 pm

luckynumber8s wrote:I thought anything less than T14 was TTT? I chose not going to law school (for another year) over Fordham.

Haha, good luck with next year's increasingly competitive applicant pool. I'm under the presumption that the majority of Fordham students couldn't get into NYU or CLS, and settled for Fordham because they wanted to be in NYC. Fordham's admissions video on their admitted students website even starts off by bashing CLS and NYU, which I thought to be amusing.

krystal82
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby krystal82 » Sat May 24, 2008 6:58 pm

what bashing? i don't recall any bashing

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20090922
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby 20090922 » Sat May 24, 2008 7:09 pm

krystal82 wrote:what bashing? i don't recall any bashing

It wasn't outright bashing, but when the first sentence in the admissions video called out CLS for being 'up in Harlem' and NYU for being 'down in Greenwich Village' (I was like 'Are you serious?'), the meaning is the same. I don't mean to disrespect Fordham in any way--it's a good law school (the person who got me thinking about law school went to Fordham), but that admissions video was kind of sad. I was turned off the moment I heard it--I thought I was imagining things so I started the video over, but nope.

krystal82
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby krystal82 » Sat May 24, 2008 7:13 pm

lol yeah i remember that, i don't think it's bashing, so much as trying to put it's self in the same league, which of course is absurd.

Player30
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Player30 » Sat May 24, 2008 11:09 pm

NYC schools like to trash talk each other. Brooklyn, Cardozo, NYLS like to attack Fordham as being cutthroat. Fordham likes to mock Cardozo for its trying to take their students via scholarships. My impression of Fordham is a "work hard, party hard" kind of place where the students are very smart but with good social skills, and it sounds good to me...of course I was rejected lol.

mzing12
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby mzing12 » Sun May 25, 2008 12:26 pm

Fordham has the harshest, least forgiving grading curve of all the law schools. Maybe it's what helped Fordham go from #45 to #25 in 10 years. I mean, imagine American University shooting up to a top 25 school in ten years.

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RATRATRAT
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby RATRATRAT » Sun May 25, 2008 12:32 pm

luckynumber8s wrote:I thought anything less than T14 was TTT? I chose not going to law school (for another year) over Fordham.

This would be kind of funny if you didn't actually think this.

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ari20dal7
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby ari20dal7 » Sun May 25, 2008 12:36 pm

Thanks, good luck to you at UCLA! It sounds like a great place. Are you from Cali? I'll be visiting LA this summer for the first time, what are some good spots to check out?


Thanks, Krystal. I'm actually from Oklahoma, so I can't say too much about the best places to visit in LA. Obviously, the ocean is pretty amazing, and I enjoy it a lot down there. Eat, eat, eat! If you're from NYC, it wouldn't be anything special, but I was amazed at the quality of restaurants and good produce that you can buy.

lastcrusade
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby lastcrusade » Mon May 26, 2008 8:59 pm

Rent a convertible and drive wherever it takes you.

Darth Topher
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Darth Topher » Tue May 27, 2008 1:31 am

I am sorry for creating any "negative buzz" about Fordham

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Ken
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Ken » Tue May 27, 2008 1:54 am

I do not feel that Fordham could ever be considered a TTT school, particularly since it does appear to be improving in the rankings. You can see Fordham improving from rankings in the mid 30's to now hovering around the top 25 on my father's site: http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

Note that I did use TTT in the the one thread that was referenced because the original poster used the term and thus I used it to address the point of the thread. The reason why I tend to avoid TTT unless it is in the original thread is that I feel it has a derogatory tone often found on Autoadmit that is not consistent with the more collaborative tone of TLS. While I am not against someone attending a law school out of the top 50 if they are certain they want to be a lawyer, but for those with uncertainty about the legal profession I recommend attending a top law school that will provide a better educational experience and open more doors in both law and other fields.

In sum, lower ranked law schools serve an essential purpose for those who truly want to become lawyers at all costs and thus I am not a fan of putting down a Tier 4 school if that is all that one can attend and one is certain of the benefits of a legal education. And no matter what, Fordham, nor any law school in the top 30, is definitely not a TTT.

Best,

Ken

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Oklahoma Mike
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Re: Forham a TTT school?

Postby Oklahoma Mike » Tue May 27, 2008 2:56 pm

I love it when Ken shows up in a thread. You know you're going to get either a great tactful review of the situation and a balanced perspective, or a pretty good argument for why PBR is under rated. either way, good times.

Also, I think a lot of people missed the point of the original using the term TOP Tier Toilet rather than Third Tier Toilet. The TTT abbreviation and the third tier toilet phrase are crude and thrown around too much- I totally agree with Ken. However we realize that the term came from the idea that they are not a wise investment and you are just flushing money down th toilet by paying to go to one of those schools. (which isn't exactly true- third tier schools can actually be quite good- they just aren't always good from an economic sense.)
So, emphasizing the change to TOP in the abbreviation seems to indicate "yeah it's a good highly ranked school, but are you throwing your money away by going there because it's such a big risk?"

I like that Ari has started using the term consolation prize in discussion of job prospects, I think I started that. Fordham certainly is a great school in many regards, but it's silly to not acknowledge the risks there. Which option you prefer between going to Fordham over paying less for similarly or higher ranked schools in other parts of the country depends on preferences and on risk aversion.

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Rosstafarian
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby Rosstafarian » Tue May 27, 2008 3:09 pm

I agree that posters should (voluntarily) erase "TTT" from their lexicons. It has no useful meaning, and it's condescending and derogatory. The question posed by the title of the thread is meaningless.

What does the OP want to know? Employment stats? Prestige? Ranking? Student quality? Faculty quality? QOL? Quality of facilities? All of these can be discussed intelligently, while the epithet in question cannot. The term is a curse word in the law school applicant community, and it debases intelligent discourse in the same way that other swear words and insults do in ordinary communication.

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ari20dal7
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby ari20dal7 » Wed May 28, 2008 1:10 am

Well, I don't think TTT is necessarily some positive contribution to the law school dialogue, but it does at least put the truth plainly: some schools aren't worth any investment, and others aren't nearly worth sticker. Sometimes that's worth saying. Now, Fordham clearly is not a TTT. It's a very good investment for a sizeable portion of the class, and not a horrible investment for some others. But there are some for whom Fordham is not a good investment, and that number is not in the single digits.

With regard to the general picture, I actually think TTT is a decent description for most schools in the T3/T4, and virtually all of the privates in that range. 100K in debt for what amounts to working twice as hard for what is hardly a decent salary coming out of undergrad, with three years invested for the privilege? Yes, schools like Cooley, NYLS, and Golden Gate are TTTs, and I don't think there's any point in sugarcoating the truth. While discussing these schools' merits in a dispassionate, objective language is obviously best, I'd bet there are at least a few folks out there who've been dissuaded by the term "TTT" or the vitriol with which it's thrown about. And if so, great.

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kevsocko
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Re: Fordham a TTT school?

Postby kevsocko » Wed May 28, 2008 1:14 am

Well, I don't think TTT is necessarily some positive contribution to the law school dialogue, but it does at least put the truth plainly: some schools aren't worth any investment, and others aren't nearly worth sticker. Sometimes that's worth saying. Now, Fordham clearly is not a TTT. It's a very good investment for a sizeable portion of the class, and not a horrible investment for some others. But there are some for whom Fordham is not a good investment, and that number is not in the single digits.


for most people out there in the world, life isn't a good investment.




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