Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

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sandlily

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Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby sandlily » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:58 pm

HI, I'm hoping someone can help me – I have to choose by Monday!

I have been offered full tuition at Rutgers with easy stipulations such as top 80%. Seton Hall offered me $47,000 which would make me responsible for $7,000 a year, same stips. Cardozo offered me $45,000 a year guaranteed, but would leave me responsible for $15,000 a year.

I am unwilling to take out the loans necessary to attend Cardozo, so it really boils down to Rutgers vs. Seton Hall. I would like to graduate debt-free, and I can do that at Rutgers. Seton Hall is ranked higher, but is that enough to warrant my taking out loans? If it helps, I do not want a career in Big Law because I do not want their Big Hours.

Also, as an aside, it Rutgers in a dangerous neighborhood?

Thanks!

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby SlipperyKipper » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:01 pm

Since you don't want to do biglaw, what are your goals? Would you be comfortable practicing in NJ for the foreseeable future?

I also was accepted into Seton Hall and went to visit since they offered a travel reimbursement. Newark as a whole is not nice. A lot of crime, poverty, and the like. Seton Hall kind of straddles the area between the southern not-so-nice areas of Newark and the nicer north end. But I wouldn't call it a dangerous area. I didn't apply to Rutgers, but I did explore Newark a bit and walked past the Rutgers campus. It's up further north in the downtown area. I thought it was a very nice area. Parks and bars within walking distance. Luxury apartments are also popping up very quickly in Newark and this is quickly turning the shadier areas around as new businesses spring up. Halsey Street, for instance, had a new luxury apartment built on it followed by a Whole Foods, a coffee shop, and some nice restaurants and bars. Check out Kilkenny's for the best black bean burger and shepherd's pie ever. This is also near the same area as Rutgers. Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to walk around the Rutgers area and wouldn't consider it dangerous but, of course, it is a bigger city so one should always be aware of their surroundings.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby Dcc617 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:21 am

General advice is to be super wary of stipulations because they can bone you and some schools section stack. What are your career goals?

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby popgoestheweasel » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:00 pm

Google "scott bullock seton hall" and read his views on there, Rutgers, and Newark. Then make your decision, knowing you've done due diligence.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby SlipperyKipper » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:29 pm

popgoestheweasel wrote:Google "scott bullock seton hall" and read his views on there, Rutgers, and Newark. Then make your decision, knowing you've done due diligence.


I would second this, just to get different perspectives. I read it when I was trying to get more information on Seton Hall before I visited. It is worth noting, however, that the post referenced above is almost a decade old. Newark is not the same as it was a decade ago (but it's still rough) and I presume the schools aren't either just based on rankings history.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:52 pm

At the risk of sounding elitist, i am not sure that not wanting biglaw is nearly sufficient justification for attending one of these horrific spots.

You do realize that, in this scenario, your alma mater will be holding you back your entire career right?

At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make. I mean yeah it’s about debt first, but a lack thereof doesn’t automatically make this an acceptable decision if it makes sense (though I’m sure you won’t actually take this advice).

What did Fordham give you? Might as well take out a bit more debt and avoid ruining your career before it begins.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby QContinuum » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:05 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:At the risk of sounding elitist, i am not sure that not wanting biglaw is nearly sufficient justification for attending one of these horrific spots.

You do realize that, in this scenario, your alma mater will be holding you back your entire career right?

At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make. I mean yeah it’s about debt first, but a lack thereof doesn’t automatically make this an acceptable decision if it makes sense (though I’m sure you won’t actually take this advice).

What did Fordham give you? Might as well take out a bit more debt and avoid ruining your career before it begins.

I don't think OP said they got into Fordham. They did, however, get into Cardozo.

And, OP, to be clear, I believe my fellow moderator above is referring to solely Rutgers and Seton Hall as "horrific spots." Cardozo is a large step above both of those schools and is a solid law school for non-BigLaw/non-"elite" public interest aspirants.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:08 pm

QContinuum wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:At the risk of sounding elitist, i am not sure that not wanting biglaw is nearly sufficient justification for attending one of these horrific spots.

You do realize that, in this scenario, your alma mater will be holding you back your entire career right?

At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make. I mean yeah it’s about debt first, but a lack thereof doesn’t automatically make this an acceptable decision if it makes sense (though I’m sure you won’t actually take this advice).

What did Fordham give you? Might as well take out a bit more debt and avoid ruining your career before it begins.

I don't think OP said they got into Fordham. They did, however, get into Cardozo.

And, OP, to be clear, I believe my fellow moderator above is referring to solely Rutgers and Seton Hall as "horrific spots." Cardozo is a large step above both of those schools and is a solid law school for non-BigLaw/non-"elite" public interest aspirants.


Yes that is accurate. My comment was premised upon an OP post that said it was down to Rutgers and SH.

And yes Cardozo is a big step above the other two.

That all being said, if OP had the results that OP was describing, I suppose I was picturing minimal scholly at Fordham. Was just curious.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby QContinuum » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:17 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:Yes that is accurate. My comment was premised upon an OP post that said it was down to Rutgers and SH.

And yes Cardozo is a big step above the other two.

That all being said, if OP had the results that OP was describing, I suppose I was picturing minimal scholly at Fordham. Was just curious.

Good point and I agree that no one with Cardozo with $$$ and maybe Fordham with no/minimal $ on the table should go to Rutgers or Seton Hall. Going to a lower-ranked school for more money is (often) the right move, but not when the gap in reputation and placement power is that large.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby sandlily » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Wow, so much helpful info – thanks! I am on Fordham's "priority waitlist." They said they would get back to me shortly after April 15th if a space opens up.

How is the legal job market today compared to 2012 when the news of lawyers working Starbucks first hit? Should I consider something else, or am I reasonably assured of a job if I go to Cardozo?
Or Fordham?

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:14 pm

QContinuum wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:Yes that is accurate. My comment was premised upon an OP post that said it was down to Rutgers and SH.

And yes Cardozo is a big step above the other two.

That all being said, if OP had the results that OP was describing, I suppose I was picturing minimal scholly at Fordham. Was just curious.

Good point and I agree that no one with Cardozo with $$$ and maybe Fordham with no/minimal $ on the table should go to Rutgers or Seton Hall. Going to a lower-ranked school for more money is (often) the right move, but not when the gap in reputation and placement power is that large.


Hold on. By often, you have to mean often by TLS standards which typically means t6 vs lower t13 or t13 vs t20plus (Bc Bu Fordham etc). Yes there are of course exceptions (Washington state is an example of a region with a t1 law school and nothing else placing directly into the market I believe).

Additionally, I think your latter point needs to be emphasized 10fold.

In my opinion when the schools you have money at are literally so bad versus say a t20plus like Fordham with considerable debt, you’re better off shooting your shot and taking the debt to go to a school that won’t kill 90% of students’ careers before they begin (assuming you don’t feel like just spending another 100 hours studying for an objectively learnable test).

Again, in this scenario, both options are bad but you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take and in my view a tttt is tantamount to a shot not taken if a goal is tantamount to a legitimate legal career.

Of course reasonable minds could differ on all of the above and yes there are good lawyers with good careers who graduate from tttts sometimes.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby SlipperyKipper » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:15 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:
Of course reasonable minds could differ on all of the above and yes there are good lawyers with good careers who graduate from tttts sometimes.

objctnyrhnr wrote:
At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make.


I'm a bit confused. Aren't Rutgers and SHU both considered TTs?

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby jsnow212 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:49 am

SlipperyKipper wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Of course reasonable minds could differ on all of the above and yes there are good lawyers with good careers who graduate from tttts sometimes.

objctnyrhnr wrote:
At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make.


I'm a bit confused. Aren't Rutgers and SHU both considered TTs?


TTs are all regional. Some TTs (like Cardozo), are redeemable because they have strong enough placement that grads can get a job (even if not that great) after higher ranked schools in that region have their fill.

I imagine Objct used tttt to emphasize that its irrelevant if Rutgers/SHU are ranked 50-100 when they are the absolute last two places employers in the tri-state are hiring from.

---

FWIW, I met a couple graduating Seton Hall students a short time ago. Based on what they told me they are doing, I estimate they will be making <50k coming out of law school in a short-term job. One had a scholarship, the other mentioned they have 300k in debt.

There are plenty of BA/BS jobs out there that pay more than 50k starting right out of college these days.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:09 am

SlipperyKipper wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
Of course reasonable minds could differ on all of the above and yes there are good lawyers with good careers who graduate from tttts sometimes.

objctnyrhnr wrote:
At this tttt level in a crowded market (tri state), it’s not even about debt as much as it is just about a bad decision it sounds like you’re about to make.


I'm a bit confused. Aren't Rutgers and SHU both considered TTs?


I don’t know maybe. I know they’re both bad but, I admit, I didn’t actually bother to look at their respective rankings.

For most purposes, I’m just not sure there’s even that big of a practical difference between a tt, a ttt, and a tttt for the simple reason that they are all schools that shouldn’t be attended in 99% of circumstances.

That said, by reputation alone I’ll acknowledge again that I do think (regardless of its rank or tier) that Cardozo has a small leg up on those two. Still don’t think it should be attended, though.

And while it certainly isn’t tantamount to “go to a t13 or don’t go,” to the extent that the comment above sounds elitist, it’s only because the entire industry is elitist in a manner about which tt (or ttt or tttt) law school deans have a vested interest in preventing 0L’s from OP from learning.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 pm

One thing to note here:

To someone who skims the numbers at LST, it may not be clear why everyone is being so pessimistic about these schools. But if you look at the specific breakdowns, each of these schools have a similar story. They each put about 50% of their class into state/local clerkships after graduation. And that sounds great at first blush, but it's not like federal clerking, where you can pretty much guarantee that those students are then going on to competitive positions at biglaw, fedgov, etc. Clerking for a low-level state or local judge is a one-year gig that may not end with that student having any employment after the year is out.

But the schools benefit immensely from this arrangement, because they get to report full-time, bar-passage-required employment for a number of students who may end up unemployed after a year. The school inflates its numbers, but graduates don't see any real benefits.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby QContinuum » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:50 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
QContinuum wrote:Going to a lower-ranked school for more money is (often) the right move, but not when the gap in reputation and placement power is that large.

Hold on. By often, you have to mean often by TLS standards which typically means t6 vs lower t13 or t13 vs t20plus (Bc Bu Fordham etc). Yes there are of course exceptions (Washington state is an example of a region with a t1 law school and nothing else placing directly into the market I believe).

Thanks for the clarification and yes, absolutely I mean "often" by TLS standards. I have no information on how often non-TLSers choose, say, T2s over T20s. My gut says not often, but who knows?

cavalier1138 wrote:One thing to note here:

To someone who skims the numbers at LST, it may not be clear why everyone is being so pessimistic about these schools. But if you look at the specific breakdowns, each of these schools have a similar story. They each put about 50% of their class into state/local clerkships after graduation. And that sounds great at first blush, but it's not like federal clerking, where you can pretty much guarantee that those students are then going on to competitive positions at biglaw, fedgov, etc. Clerking for a low-level state or local judge is a one-year gig that may not end with that student having any employment after the year is out.

But the schools benefit immensely from this arrangement, because they get to report full-time, bar-passage-required employment for a number of students who may end up unemployed after a year. The school inflates its numbers, but graduates don't see any real benefits.

Here are the numbers, excluding state/local clerkships (which don't pay well, don't meaningfully boost post-clerkship employability, and only last 1-2 years):
  • Cardozo: 3 out of every 4 (76%) new graduates secure full-time legal work straight out of law school.
  • Seton Hall: Only 1 out of every 4 (25%) new graduates secure full-time legal work straight out of law school.
  • Rutgers: Less than 1 out of every 3 (30%) new graduates secure full-time legal work straight out of law school.
The stats for Seton Hall and Rutgers should be shocking and sobering to any 0L considering matriculating there.

This may be one case where USNWR rankings are way off the mark as an indication of school placement strength.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby FND » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:08 pm

I don't know if anything's changed from my time, but, Seton Hall used to section-stack.
Basically, all scholarship students had minimum class rank / grade stipulations, and they'd all be thrown into a section together, guaranteeing that quite a few of them would lose their scholarship.

I don't believe Rutgers did that, and Cardozo doesn't have stipulations, so both are preferable for that reason. As for placement, the question is where OP wants to work. Rutgers has a better reputation and placement in Jersey, Cardozo in NYC. Neither have dramatically better job prospects than the other, so it comes down to where you want to work.

Note: if Fordham comes back with a scholarship, they're worth paying more than the other schools, but not that much more. Don't go to Fordham without a scholarship, but, if the difference is just a few thousand dollars per year more, take it, and don't look back.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby TLSposter1990 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:07 pm

Congrats on your offers, OP! Despite the doom and gloom of the other posters, I actually think you're in pretty decent position here. I went to one of these schools on a full scholarship, and now I work in NY biglaw. Graduating with no debt is a big weight off of your shoulders and gives you freedom and flexibility that most graduates don't have, including the Fordham grad with $300k in my opinion. It would be one thing if you had minimal or no scholarship to these schools, but going to one of them for free (or almost free) is well worth the risk against the relatively weaker employment stats.

The above poster was correct that if you go to either Rutgers or Seton Hall, you should be comfortable with the idea of practicing in New Jersey. NY biglaw is only really viable for the top 10% of the class at these schools, which may end up being you, but you certainly can't count on it. With that said, NJ practice isn't a bad thing by any means. There are some great firms in NJ that hire from Rutgers and Seton Hall. And while a lot of people went off to a state clerkship, a surprising number of my classmates found meaningful employment afterwards. Salary will be lower than NY, but so will your cost of living.

Despite the TLS echo chamber, 1) you can be successful coming out of these schools, and 2) success doesn't always have to equal biglaw or bigfed, especially when the cost of attendance is low/free.

Congrats again, and good luck on making your selection!

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:49 pm

Let’s also remember that the economy is going to be much weaker when OP graduates. Therefore I think it might be wise to consult 2011 (or so) numbers as opposed to last year’s.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby The Lsat Airbender » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:58 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:Let’s also remember that the economy is going to be much weaker when OP graduates. Therefore I think it might be wise to consult 2011 (or so) numbers as opposed to last year’s.


There's no guarantee of this. It makes a lot of sense to assume we're at a local peak in 2019, and discount accordingly, but "2008 will happen again" doomsaying is probably overcorrecting.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:29 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:Let’s also remember that the economy is going to be much weaker when OP graduates. Therefore I think it might be wise to consult 2011 (or so) numbers as opposed to last year’s.


There's no guarantee of this. It makes a lot of sense to assume we're at a local peak in 2019, and discount accordingly, but "2008 will happen again" doomsaying is probably overcorrecting.


Hence my suggestion to go 2011 but to your point yeah maybe looking at 2012 or 2013 would be better. I don’t think it’ll all fall apart again, but I think pretty common wisdom is that the getting isn’t going to be nearly this good in a few years.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby icansortofmath » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:26 pm

Cardozo is a BIG step up from the other two and Cardozo places surprisingly well if you're not biglaw or bust.

If you're not biglaw or bust, Cardozo is a very viable choice, and your only choice. Toss acceptances to Rutgers and Seton Hall into the trash unless you got a job waiting for you at a relative's law firm or something.

If you're biglaw or bust, Fordham (and that's debatable) should be the bottom of your list.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby QContinuum » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:01 pm

icansortofmath wrote:Cardozo is a BIG step up from the other two and Cardozo places surprisingly well if you're not biglaw or bust.

If you're not biglaw or bust, Cardozo is a very viable choice, and your only choice. Toss acceptances to Rutgers and Seton Hall into the trash unless you got a job waiting for you at a relative's law firm or something.

If you're biglaw or bust, Fordham (and that's debatable) should be the bottom of your list.

I generally agree, except that in my (perhaps overly) risk-averse opinion, no one should matriculate to any law school where their goal outcome isn't achievable from median. So, any BigLaw-or-busters should be T13 (plus Georgetown/Vandy/WUSTL)-or-bust - no other schools allow students to land BigLaw from median.

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby icansortofmath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:36 am

QContinuum wrote:
icansortofmath wrote:Cardozo is a BIG step up from the other two and Cardozo places surprisingly well if you're not biglaw or bust.

If you're not biglaw or bust, Cardozo is a very viable choice, and your only choice. Toss acceptances to Rutgers and Seton Hall into the trash unless you got a job waiting for you at a relative's law firm or something.

If you're biglaw or bust, Fordham (and that's debatable) should be the bottom of your list.

I generally agree, except that in my (perhaps overly) risk-averse opinion, no one should matriculate to any law school where their goal outcome isn't achievable from median. So, any BigLaw-or-busters should be T13 (plus Georgetown/Vandy/WUSTL)-or-bust - no other schools allow students to land BigLaw from median.


I agree with standard. I think Fordham is right in cutoff with about 40% going to biglaw, which means a median student there should have a good shot since I assume not everyone above median ends up in biglaw.

The question is how “achievable” is acceptable?

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Re: Rutgers $$$$ vs. Seton Hall $$$ (vs Cardozo $$$)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:05 am

One thing that I think tls general sentiment underplays is the overall achievability of biglaw at say t30 very strong regional schools, by 2-3 years out even when you don’t nail the SA.

Take a student with litigation aspirations who goes to BC for example. Say that student is like 60th percentile after 1L and I feel like Bc biglaw/fedclerk numbers hover right around 40%. This person very well might miss biglaw out of oci and let’s assume they can’t snag an offer outside of oci for post grad. So they go to some marginal regional firm or boutique doing (I dunno) insurance defense or medmal or something.

Bc grads dominate the boston market which (from what I read on my law firm periodical subscription) has continually growing biglaw opportunities.

If that person plays the long(er) game and networks and puts their head down and doesn’t suck at interviewing, they’ll hit biglaw if they put their mind to it unless the entire period following their graduation comes in an economic slowdown.

To me, insofar as there is some large cliff after like t25 or whatever, it’s the schools through which my hypo is generally realistic and the schools through which it’s not.

So this is a long way of saying that the “assume median so go to a school that gets biglaw median” attitude, while understandable and—yes—more ideal than what I’m describing does NOT paint a complete picture.



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