Best School for IP? Forum

[lj6711297]

I have done a good amount of research into prospective schools primarily in Chicago (ABA/NALP/schools websites) and was wondering if anyone had any insight/information on the IP market and placement?

First topic I was curious about was specific law schools rankings for IP.
Do these matter? Is it easier to get an IP job graduating from a school with a higher ranked IP program?
If it's not easier to get a IP job from a school with higher ranked IP program, then to me, these specialty rankings seem pretty useless. And to use an example, Chicago-Kent is ranked higher than Northwestern for IP, so would the IP market have more opportunities for a Chicago-Kent grad than a NU grad? (this seems very hard for me to believe). The only other thing I could think of is maybe the knowledge or preparedness of a student. Going with the same example, Chicago-Kent has dozens of IP/Patent class while NU has three I think (definitely less than 10), so maybe the Chicago-Kent grad would be better/more prepared at drafting patents or working with IP. Then again this seems useless if you can't get a job.

Next, is the placement for IP?
I have gone over countless NALP reports, but I always wonder if the employment stats also reflect the IP employment outcomes. Does anyone know of any data for employment outcomes that breaks it down by area of work?

Would love to hear any insight or even opinions about the market. Below is some random facts about me if it matters at all.

- going into IP - patents
- attending law school in fall 2019
- graduating in engineering from UIUC in spring (don't want to stay here)
- LSAT 165 retaking in a week, confident in a score of 168 - can discuss reasons why is curious
- GPA 3.3 health issues addressed in addendum (3 semesters undergrad average 2.5, rest average above 3.6)

[KunAgnis]

I don't think IP rankings for schools are that conclusive. For sure there are schools with reputations for having a lot of students place into IP jobs (George Washington comes to mind, I think), but in general it's more about the school rank and your prior experience/major. I don't think recruiters will actively scour schools' course offerings and think, "we should definitely target Chicago Kent over NU."

I've attended PLIP (the biggest patent/IP job fair - it's held in Chicago every summer) multiple times and I can assure you that recruiters care probably more about your law school GPA, what major you had, what your UG GPA was (this matters much more for patent prosecution than lit, but a lot of patent shops will do both so), and what prior relevant industry experience you had.

In your situation, you should probably just focus on maximizing your LSAT score - if you can get 170 or above (I'm assuming you're not a minority person because you didn't mention it) you should be solid for NU. Might need a higher score for U Chicago since they're much more selective. Not sure about other schools in Chicago - you could look at Chicago Kent, John Marshall, and Loyola.

[lj6711297]

I don't think IP rankings for schools are that conclusive. For sure there are schools with reputations for having a lot of students place into IP jobs (George Washington comes to mind, I think), but in general it's more about the school rank and your prior experience/major. I don't think recruiters will actively scour schools' course offerings and think, "we should definitely target Chicago Kent over NU."

I've attended PLIP (the biggest patent/IP job fair - it's held in Chicago every summer) multiple times and I can assure you that recruiters care probably more about your law school GPA, what major you had, what your UG GPA was (this matters much more for patent prosecution than lit, but a lot of patent shops will do both so), and what prior relevant industry experience you had.

In your situation, you should probably just focus on maximizing your LSAT score - if you can get 170 or above (I'm assuming you're not a minority person because you didn't mention it) you should be solid for NU. Might need a higher score for U Chicago since they're much more selective. Not sure about other schools in Chicago - you could look at Chicago Kent, John Marshall, and Loyola.

Thanks for the insight. Some of the points you brought up make sense, specifically my undergrad major/gpa. It was something that I always thought would matter for an IP position, but I've been told many times that my major/gpa for undergrad doesn't matter at all even by my pre-law advisor. I am at the point now that I don't really value my advisors option for various other reasons too. And I didn't mention this before, but I was denied form NU. (this was in part by some bad advising)

I know you said you don't know much about the other Chicago schools, but do you have any opinion about/insight whatsoever? I would be attending them for a decently low cost.

[QContinuum]

No, IP rankings don't matter. For the love of Heaven, don't attend Chicago Kent over Northwestern.

What will give you an edge for patent law is if you work for at least a full year (not counting internships) after graduating college, and preferably 2-3 years. A few years of full-time engineering WE will set you up very nicely for a patent prosecution position, even from a lower-ranked law school (although I'd still encourage you to shoot for the best law school you can get into).

[sting]

Definitely take T13 or maybe T20 if you can get it. Beyond that, I’ve seen GW and Santa Clara maybe place better than rank would otherwise suggest they would, though it could be just because those schools attract a lot of students with strong science backgrounds. I wouldn’t pay attention to IP rankings anywhere else.

[QContinuum]

Definitely take T13 or maybe T20 if you can get it. Beyond that, I’ve seen GW and Santa Clara maybe place better than rank would otherwise suggest they would, though it could be just because those schools attract a lot of students with strong science backgrounds. I wouldn’t pay attention to IP rankings anywhere else.

Part of GWU/Santa Clara's apparent placement strength may stem from patent agent attendees already employed at BigLaw firms who return as associates after graduation. I wouldn't attend either school for IP without either 1) employment as a patent agent at a BigLaw firm, or 2) at least the requisite credentials for BigLaw patent prosecution (i.e., patent bar eligibility plus either a Ph.D. in the life sciences, or 2-3+ years of full-time WE (not counting internships) in engineering). A life sciences B.S., for instance, wouldn't cut it.

[beinghuman]

Specialty rankings do not really matter.
I have recently attended a few IP Law networking events in Chicago and I can tell you that employers are more interested in recruiting U Chicago and NU students, even in patent law. In fact, several of the firms would only invite students from these two schools to attend. So even though, odds are better in patent law, attending a non-T14 school will make your search more difficult and you'd need a higher GPA to be considered, it's not impossible though but it's risky.
Plus, you might end up not liking patent law so you should focus on getting a good LSAT score to improve your chances.

I have done a good amount of research into prospective schools primarily in Chicago (ABA/NALP/schools websites) and was wondering if anyone had any insight/information on the IP market and placement?

First topic I was curious about was specific law schools rankings for IP.
Do these matter? Is it easier to get an IP job graduating from a school with a higher ranked IP program?
If it's not easier to get a IP job from a school with higher ranked IP program, then to me, these specialty rankings seem pretty useless. And to use an example, Chicago-Kent is ranked higher than Northwestern for IP, so would the IP market have more opportunities for a Chicago-Kent grad than a NU grad? (this seems very hard for me to believe). The only other thing I could think of is maybe the knowledge or preparedness of a student. Going with the same example, Chicago-Kent has dozens of IP/Patent class while NU has three I think (definitely less than 10), so maybe the Chicago-Kent grad would be better/more prepared at drafting patents or working with IP. Then again this seems useless if you can't get a job.

Next, is the placement for IP?
I have gone over countless NALP reports, but I always wonder if the employment stats also reflect the IP employment outcomes. Does anyone know of any data for employment outcomes that breaks it down by area of work?

Would love to hear any insight or even opinions about the market. Below is some random facts about me if it matters at all.

- going into IP - patents
- attending law school in fall 2019
- graduating in engineering from UIUC in spring (don't want to stay here)
- LSAT 165 retaking in a week, confident in a score of 168 - can discuss reasons why is curious
- GPA 3.3 health issues addressed in addendum (3 semesters undergrad average 2.5, rest average above 3.6)

[denmarkwahlberg]

Yale

[patent_guy]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

[QContinuum]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

[UVA2B]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Schools have actually started moving introductory classes and electives into the Spring semester. Not all of them, of course, but the push is to give 1Ls a limited opportunity to take electives during the Spring so they can do things like demonstrating their interests prior to OCI. It'll definitely be a YMMV thing based on the specific school.

[patent_guy]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Right, I didn’t mean actually taking patent classes as a 1L. But if you’re trying to demonstrate interest in OCI, it’s certainly helpful to be able to say you’re taking IP and patent law that fall. That way firms will know you’ll at least know what a patent is if you show up in June to spend a summer in their IP group.

And you’re correct, the patent bar would certainly be even more helpful. When I was going through, I put on my resume when I was going to sit for it and that showed people I was studying and serious about it. Definitely recommend.

[patent_guy]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Schools have actually started moving introductory classes and electives into the Spring semester. Not all of them, of course, but the push is to give 1Ls a limited opportunity to take electives during the Spring so they can do things like demonstrating their interests prior to OCI. It'll definitely be a YMMV thing based on the specific school.

I’ve literally never heard of this. What schools are doing this?

[UVA2B]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Schools have actually started moving introductory classes and electives into the Spring semester. Not all of them, of course, but the push is to give 1Ls a limited opportunity to take electives during the Spring so they can do things like demonstrating their interests prior to OCI. It'll definitely be a YMMV thing based on the specific school.

I’ve literally never heard of this. What schools are doing this?

I'm only personally familiar with UVA, so everything else is second-hand or third-hand information, but I've heard that Duke, Northwestern, GWU, and NYU (this was third hand information, FWIW, so could definitely be wrong) are offering spring electives now. I'll only speak to UVA since it's the only school I know personally and officially, but they only have 3 1L courses (Con law, Property, and LRW) and leave room for 2 electives to include things like Patent Law or M&A (but to be real, is probably corporations since that's likely a prerequisite for M&A).

If I'm mistaken on any of the other schools, I apologize in advance for hearing/understanding wrong. I don't want to misrepresent it beyond what I've seen/been told.

[cavalier1138]

I'm only personally familiar with UVA, so everything else is second-hand or third-hand information, but I've heard that Duke, Northwestern, GWU, and NYU (this was third hand information, FWIW, so could definitely be wrong) are offering spring electives now.

This is definitely the case at NYU. First years have one elective slot that can be filled with Con Law, Property, International Law, IP, Corporations, or Tax (I may have missed one).

[QContinuum]

I'm only personally familiar with UVA, so everything else is second-hand or third-hand information, but I've heard that Duke, Northwestern, GWU, and NYU (this was third hand information, FWIW, so could definitely be wrong) are offering spring electives now.

This is definitely the case at NYU. First years have one elective slot that can be filled with Con Law, Property, International Law, IP, Corporations, or Tax (I may have missed one).

Property and Con Law are both electives at NYU? That's wild.

I can see postponing Con Law (which is of no practical value, really, to the vast majority of lawyers), but I would find it hard to justify taking IP over basic Property.

[LSthrowawy2014]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Schools have actually started moving introductory classes and electives into the Spring semester. Not all of them, of course, but the push is to give 1Ls a limited opportunity to take electives during the Spring so they can do things like demonstrating their interests prior to OCI. It'll definitely be a YMMV thing based on the specific school.

I’ve literally never heard of this. What schools are doing this?

I'm only personally familiar with UVA, so everything else is second-hand or third-hand information, but I've heard that Duke, Northwestern, GWU, and NYU (this was third hand information, FWIW, so could definitely be wrong) are offering spring electives now. I'll only speak to UVA since it's the only school I know personally and officially, but they only have 3 1L courses (Con law, Property, and LRW) and leave room for 2 electives to include things like Patent Law or M&A (but to be real, is probably corporations since that's likely a prerequisite for M&A).

If I'm mistaken on any of the other schools, I apologize in advance for hearing/understanding wrong. I don't want to misrepresent it beyond what I've seen/been told.

Not currently true at Duke, just for anyone looking at this thread. Maybe next year will

[ckb614]

Northwestern has two electives second semester 1L. Took patent law in my first year, but IP Survey is more common

[Wubbles]

Cornell has a spring 1L elective, and there was an IP option iirc

[sacagawea]

The specialty rankings don’t matter. Go to the best school you can while taking on as little debt as possible, just like would be suggested for any other desired outcome. Any decent school with have the basic patent classes to take for you to get an understanding of what’s going on/show interest when you go through OCI.

Further, just as for any other desired outcome, law school won't actually train you to practice patent law (just like it doesn't train students to do M&A, or real estate, or whatever). And as for OCI, it's unlikely any school would let you take a patent class as a 1L. The biggest thing you can do to demonstrate interest in patent prosecution is to take and pass the patent bar. But really, the most important thing is just to go to the best school possible at a reasonable cost.

Schools have actually started moving introductory classes and electives into the Spring semester. Not all of them, of course, but the push is to give 1Ls a limited opportunity to take electives during the Spring so they can do things like demonstrating their interests prior to OCI. It'll definitely be a YMMV thing based on the specific school.

I’ve literally never heard of this. What schools are doing this?

I'm only personally familiar with UVA, so everything else is second-hand or third-hand information, but I've heard that Duke, Northwestern, GWU, and NYU (this was third hand information, FWIW, so could definitely be wrong) are offering spring electives now. I'll only speak to UVA since it's the only school I know personally and officially, but they only have 3 1L courses (Con law, Property, and LRW) and leave room for 2 electives to include things like Patent Law or M&A (but to be real, is probably corporations since that's likely a prerequisite for M&A).

If I'm mistaken on any of the other schools, I apologize in advance for hearing/understanding wrong. I don't want to misrepresent it beyond what I've seen/been told.

penn has two electives 1L spring alongside crim and con (prop is no longer mandatory). options in 2019:
Administrative Law
Bankruptcy
Environmental Law
International Law
Internet Law
Chinese Law
Intro to Intellectual Property Law and Policy
Intro to Philosophy of Law
Judicial Decision-Making
Law and Society in Japan
Privacy Law
Property
Reproductive Rights and Justice