Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

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Another0Ler

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Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby Another0Ler » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:47 am

If I am open to a public interest, or most law jobs that are not biglaw and have a 40-60k starting salary, is it worth it to go to, say, DePaul for their maximum ($30,000) scholarship? I am debt-adverse so I want as few loans as possible regardless. I understand DePaul and John Marshall have a bad rap but could this be justified at all as a back-up plan? I expect to hear "retake", which I am this month and am confident I can do much better than my meager 154. Still, I wonder, any thoughts?

Thank you,
Another0ler

QContinuum

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby QContinuum » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:32 am

I'd be very leery of taking out any loans to attend either school. (And even on a $30k scholly at DePaul, you'd still need to take out loans for expenses and COL at least - and does the $30k even cover DePaul's entire tuition?)

DePaul's most recent data indicates 42% of the class failed to land legal positions, including 20% unemployed. John Marshall (I assume you mean JMLS, and not Atlanta JMLS) similarly has 40% of the class failing to land legal employment, including 14% unemployed. These are awful stats by any definition. This is not about placement into BigLaw - this is placement into being a lawyer.

There are many solid law schools outside the T20 that are worth attending at a reasonable price. I don't think DePaul and John Marshall are worth attending even for free (because even then you'd still have to cover three years of living and other expenses and three years of lost wages, not to mention the time investment - there's only so many 'three years' we have in our lives).

cavalier1138

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:10 pm

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with T2 schools, but you can do better than your current options and prices. And you need to do better if you want to not be in a paralyzing amount of debt after school.

Npret

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby Npret » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:30 pm

No it isn’t worth it. Getting any job from tho schools is difficult. You need better schools with better employment numbers.

Another0Ler

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby Another0Ler » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:34 pm

QContinuum wrote:I'd be very leery of taking out any loans to attend either school. (And even on a $30k scholly at DePaul, you'd still need to take out loans for expenses and COL at least - and does the $30k even cover DePaul's entire tuition?)

DePaul's most recent data indicates 42% of the class failed to land legal positions, including 20% unemployed. John Marshall (I assume you mean JMLS, and not Atlanta JMLS) similarly has 40% of the class failing to land legal employment, including 14% unemployed. These are awful stats by any definition. This is not about placement into BigLaw - this is placement into being a lawyer.

There are many solid law schools outside the T20 that are worth attending at a reasonable price. I don't think DePaul and John Marshall are worth attending even for free (because even then you'd still have to cover three years of living and other expenses and three years of lost wages, not to mention the time investment - there's only so many 'three years' we have in our lives).


What would you consider outside the T20 that is worth attending? I am in Illinois if you couldn't figure from which schools I am asking about (yes, JMLS- not Atlanta). My main holy grail goal is UIUC with *crosses fingers* full tuition. I figured it would be worth the cost of living to go there because of the good (let alone existent) job prospects. But if I fall just shy of my target LSAT for that (162/3/4), what other options are there? All the ones I find have minimal portability or similar 75% percentile LSAT scores and I keep ending up back at UIUC. Would St. Louis University be worth it? Is that portable back to IL? What about University of Iowa?

I appreciate all the help and input.

cavalier1138

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:41 pm

Iowa will likely get you back to Illinois, as would WUSTL (probably not SLU, but that's because if you got in there, you might as well have gone to Loyola). But that's because those schools have good general placement.

You've correctly identified that short of attending Northwestern, your best option for Illinois is UIUC. So get an LSAT that puts you there.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Apologies in advance if this screams of tough love, but my position on these types of question is always this: If you think you really have what it takes to get a good outcome out of the types of schools you’re considering (and you must due to the fact that you’re considering them)—presumably due to your own personal sense of inherent reasoning skill and/or intellect and/or work ethic and/or drive to be a reasonably successful lawyer—then prove it.

Prove it by actually learning how to take what will be the most learnable test (excluding arguably the bar) that you will take for the remainder of your life. 75% of the Lsat is exceptionally learnable if you put the time in and the other 25% is reasonably learnable. Your score on these exams will end up being way less of a crapshoot than pretty much every exam in law school.

If you think that getting better at the Lsat is too hard or not worth the effort or too much of an undertaking, you are making a significant mistake by pursuing this general avenue as a life choice.

Another0Ler

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby Another0Ler » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:51 pm

There is no need to apologize for telling it like it is, I appreciate the truth and thank you for not holding back. The reason I am thinking of St Louis over Loyola is that St Louis seems to be friendlier with scholarships and their 75% is lower than Loyola Chicago's. I'm looking at their 509s, and by far and away there are more full tuitions given at St Louis than at Loyola. 2017 and 2018 both saw 6% of students receiving them, whereas Loyola had 0 and only 2 students of their 2018 509 receive more than full tuition. Chances seem better at St. Louis comparatively even if I hit Loyola's 75%. And I have put in work, I have studied for 6 months with PowerScore Bibles and PrepTest books. I did it slow because of work. My skills have only recently really started to show improvement, as the schedule I am on says it should (lawschooli's).

QContinuum

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby QContinuum » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:53 pm

Another0Ler wrote:What would you consider outside the T20 that is worth attending? I am in Illinois if you couldn't figure from which schools I am asking about (yes, JMLS- not Atlanta). My main holy grail goal is UIUC with *crosses fingers* full tuition. I figured it would be worth the cost of living to go there because of the good (let alone existent) job prospects. But if I fall just shy of my target LSAT for that (162/3/4), what other options are there? All the ones I find have minimal portability or similar 75% percentile LSAT scores and I keep ending up back at UIUC. Would St. Louis University be worth it? Is that portable back to IL? What about University of Iowa?

I appreciate all the help and input.

I don't have a comprehensive list of "good" law schools outside the T20, as these vary by region. Some examples off the top of my head include Fordham and Cardozo in NYC, BU/BC in Boston, GWU in D.C., SMU in Dallas, Davis/Irvine/Hastings in CA. All of these schools make sense for certain students at certain price points. In some cases, students may be (much) better served by retaking the LSAT and shooting for a higher-ranked school instead (e.g., Georgetown instead of GWU).

Again, that isn't a comprehensive list by any means. But key is to look at each school's ABA employment disclosure (generally the easiest way is via Google - don't bother trying to find the relevant page from the law school's home page). Calc out the percent of the most recent graduating class for which data is available (currently, the class of 2017) with full-time, bar passage-required employment. (Ignore the so-called "J.D. Advantage" category - these are jobs that, by definition, do not require a J.D. to get.) This is the fraction of the class that actually managed to secure full-time work as lawyers. Any school that gives you only a coin flip's chance (or worse) at full-time work as a lawyer is not worth attending, IMO.

Another0Ler

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby Another0Ler » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:43 pm

Thank you, yes it seems UIUC is the regional sub-top 20 powerhouse in my region. I have been using lawschooltransparency to factor in employment data and St Louis University seems to have solid employment statistics as well as decent portability back to IL. I am going to aim for UIUC with Iowa and St Louis as possible crutches based on my goals.

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby LSATWiz.com » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:12 pm

Another0Ler wrote:Thank you, yes it seems UIUC is the regional sub-top 20 powerhouse in my region. I have been using lawschooltransparency to factor in employment data and St Louis University seems to have solid employment statistics as well as decent portability back to IL. I am going to aim for UIUC with Iowa and St Louis as possible crutches based on my goals.

I think you should ask yourself whether you're willing to forego law because $50 or $60,000 dollars seems like more than enough for you or because you really want to be a lawyer. Most of the people who succeed from these schools would be able to succeed in a wide variety of professions.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Worth It To Go To T2 or 3 If Not Big Law?

Postby objctnyrhnr » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm

OP, you mentioned studying “slowly” for 6 months. That is frankly just not sufficient.

And to be clear, I am not trying to say that you or somebody else would be insane for initially thinking it was. I was once the same.

I put in a year of studying (call it slowish) and found myself in the mid 160s. I got into a school listed on an earlier poster’s listing of good schools outside of t20 at full price. This had been my top choice. I was all set to go. Then I stumbled upon tls and similarly-sentimented online resources. They made me realize that taking a year in a random job (that I absolutely hated) while crushing Lsat studying would be a good use of my time.

It was. Improved score a lot, got into t14s, every 14-20, and I got into the same school again at like a 90% ride (give or take). I ended up going to that same school.

As a result, especially when interest was factored in, I had an insanely lucrative year. 0% to 90% tuition at strong t30.

Think about it, OP.



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