Attend a T14 regardless of COA? Forum

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nixy

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by nixy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:30 am

denise137 wrote:
Npret wrote:T14 schools only look to peer schools or above as competitive for scholarships. Almost all of their students could get into UConn if they wanted.

If you are using LST to justify why UConn is as good as Yale, I think you are beyond help or advice. UConn is not considered a powerhouse anywhere, Connecticut is a tiny state, and can’t offer that many options.

You are going to do what you want, and refuse to study hard for a retake and do the one and only thing that can get you into T14 schools at a reasonable cost.

You are fairly typical of 0Ls who have no clue what law is like, but think they do, based on common knowledge or bad advice from family or pre law advisers.This forum is here to help them. But we can only give out best advice.

Go to UConn for free, at least then you will only have wasted your time if it doesn’t work out and won’t have debt.
I-- I'm not about to go back and forth with you, especially when the goalposts keep moving. Please stop commenting on this thread if I'm "beyond help." You're rude and negative.
TBF, Npret's advice is coming from frustration based on years of trying to help 0Ls on this site. Rude and negative doesn't mean the advice is wrong.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by denise137 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:34 am

nixy wrote:So it probably doesn't make sense to attend a T14 regardless of COA, assuming you don't have family paying for it (a surprising number of people do), because for most people there will be some better compromise between cost/goals.

For example, if you want to be a public defender/local prosecutor/legal aid attorney in Connecticut, know what salaries are likely to result and are good with those salaries, and have a clear sense of what you need to do in law school for that outcome, UConn for free is probably fine. When you say you want to do public interest/constitutional law, and that you want to be in DMV, that sounds more unicorn-y and the kind of work that you might need a T14 pedigree for - but you will also probably not make a lot of money and so need to go to a school with a good LRAP (i.e. not Georgetown, from what I here) or be willing to commit to that path and make PSLF work for you (if it doesn't get abolished). Or you go to UT or Vanderbilt with money and adjust your goals somewhat.

The thing is that it's a hugely individual decision. Some people are more comfortable with debt than others, and some people are more willing than others to mortgage their future finances to go to a better school that gives a better chance at getting the job they want. Some people have bigger safety nets than others. Some are more comfortable with debt than others. The problem is that even $100-200k in debt (not sticker cost at a lot of T14s) feels entirely unreal/academic when you're applying to law school, and much more daunting and horrifying once you have to start paying off the loans, and there are lots of people here who have gone through this and wish they didn't have the debt they now have.

I will say that (respectfully) public interest/constitutional law sounds super vague, and that most people who enter law school thinking they'll do public interest don't actually do it. So choices also depend on what experience you actually have already and how specific your career path is and how committed you are to it, to get a more realistic sense of where you should go.
I don't have family paying for anything, but if I go to UConn I can live at home, making the COA minimal. I'm comfortable with some debt, as I don't have really any from undergrad, but I guess I was hoping to hear that a UConn degree can be transferable to DC, given sustained connections/ having attended undergrad there.
Mullens wrote:When you say you want to public interest/constitutional law, what do you actually envision yourself doing? If you just want to be a public defender in CT then UCONN for free isn’t a bad option.

If you want to do impact litigation for a national organization you should retake.

Absolutely don’t go to Georgetown at sticker.
Impact litigation is what I'm most interested in, and I already have experience and connections at a national org. They've asked me to stay on, part time, during law school. Of course, there's no signed contract saying I'll be their lawyer when I graduate, but I think the connections I've made there help mitigate some of the risks.

Before coming to DC, I did want to be a public defender, so there is the possibility that once I actually go to law school that interest reemerges, but I think I ultimately want to work in policy in a concrete way, even as a Hill lawyer. (I also have Hill experience)

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by denise137 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:56 am

nixy wrote:
denise137 wrote:
Wubbles wrote:Georgetown has some students who choose not to practice law and Yale has quite a few students who choose not to practice law, largely because they're doing other things they intentionally filter into.
Not saying this can't be true, but where does it say that on LST? It only specifies legal jobs, full-time, and long-term employment. Couldn't the same be said for other grads choosing not to practice law, rather than not being able to?
It could, but there is anecdotal evidence from Georgetown based on its location and the nature of its student body, and especially Yale because it's Yale, that just doesn't exist for, say, UConn. It's like how Northwestern admits a lot of non-traditional students with previous work experience, often in high-powered-ish jobs - more of them make non-traditional/JD-preferred uses of the JD rather than going into traditional law practice. People argue a great deal about how much of a thing this self-selection actually is and how to interpret those numbers - many on this site discount Georgetown a lot because you can't prove those numbers reflect self-selection versus inability to get other, legal jobs. (Yale is pretty universally agreed to be outside this kind of discussion because a Yale degree opens doors that other law school degrees don't. Even if it didn't, they have the best LRAP around so you likely don't need to go into law if you don't want to.)
Thanks, this makes sense and is definitely something for me to consider when choosing how much weight to give to ~10% differences and COA.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Wubbles » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am

You had better finish #1 out of your class or have some serious connections and be close to #1 if you want a reasonable chance to be a hill lawyer out of UConn. Maybe it's a biased sample size, but I know 3 hill lawyers and 2 went to Columbia and one went to Harvard and they all worked at v5 firms or similar jobs.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by nixy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:59 am

On the one hand, I think people from a surprising range of schools end up in DC, because you can always sell wanting to do stuff that only happens in DC (ie government). On the other hand, DC can also afford to be very picky re: grades/pedigree. I’m not going to say that someone at the very tip top of their class at UConn couldn’t ever end up there, but I don’t think going to UConn to get to DC is a wise choice (you can’t guarantee you’ll be top of your class, jobs are super competitive, gunning for DC may eliminate other more usual options from that school, etc).

Going to law school in DC part time and working for your org part time is a slightly different kettle of fish, though. I think GT would still be expensive enough to be a bad choice, but GW or maybe Howard, each with money, might make more sense in that situation. Because the alternative to grades and pedigree is, of course, connections.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:56 pm

Law school transparency has the ABA charts that show where every grad went in terms of employment or unemployment. It’s right there to read. You can see how many students are going to graduate school, for example, in which case they are classed as unemployed. For 2017 it was 3 for UConn and 6 for Yale. For law firms from 2-10 lawyers, it was 1 for Yale and 25 for UConn. For the next size firm 11-25 lawyers, there were 0 from Yale and 12 from U conn.

Yale also has a large number of students in school funded positions which are likely highly competitive fellowships and count towards long term full time employment. That’s because “long term” means at least a year (though I’ve always thought that was a bit misleading) and “short term” is less than a year. UConn has no school funded positions.

The tab for the ABA charts is right there under the heading for “jobs.”

Maybe you’ve already studied that, but it wasn’t clear from your posts.
Last edited by Npret on Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:58 pm

In addition to what was already said about DC, you might want to check out this thread from someone working in/adjacent to the offices you're likely interested in. I'm not at all confident in UConn's ability to put you anywhere near selective DC positions, but you should ask them whether they've seen it.

Part of the trouble with being a 0L is that you've been pretty successful in your life so far to be able to work where you have and be considering decent law schools. The problem with that success is that it primes you to think that it will carry through into the legal field regardless of where you get your JD. That just isn't how legal hiring works. Like it or not, this is a prestige industry, and the jobs you're targeting (including DC public defenders) almost exclusively pull from top schools.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:15 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:In addition to what was already said about DC, you might want to check out this thread from someone working in/adjacent to the offices you're likely interested in. I'm not at all confident in UConn's ability to put you anywhere near selective DC positions, but you should ask them whether they've seen it.

Part of the trouble with being a 0L is that you've been pretty successful in your life so far to be able to work where you have and be considering decent law schools. The problem with that success is that it primes you to think that it will carry through into the legal field regardless of where you get your JD. That just isn't how legal hiring works. Like it or not, this is a prestige industry, and the jobs you're targeting (including DC public defenders) almost exclusively pull from top schools.
From law school transparency it’s clear that the vast majority of UConn students stay in Connecticut. It seems to range between 65-75%. No students are shown in DC, though there may be a few. At Yale, 15-20% of the class go to DC. It’s the second highest location, after New York, which makes sense. No Yale students are shown staying in Connecticut though I’m sure there may be a few. LST only has the top 3 locations that grads are employed, until sometime before the end of 2018.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by denise137 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:42 pm

nixy wrote:On the one hand, I think people from a surprising range of schools end up in DC, because you can always sell wanting to do stuff that only happens in DC (ie government). On the other hand, DC can also afford to be very picky re: grades/pedigree. I’m not going to say that someone at the very tip top of their class at UConn couldn’t ever end up there, but I don’t think going to UConn to get to DC is a wise choice (you can’t guarantee you’ll be top of your class, jobs are super competitive, gunning for DC may eliminate other more usual options from that school, etc).

Going to law school in DC part time and working for your org part time is a slightly different kettle of fish, though. I think GT would still be expensive enough to be a bad choice, but GW or maybe Howard, each with money, might make more sense in that situation. Because the alternative to grades and pedigree is, of course, connections.
I would be going to school full-time and working part-time (I do comms work so I wouldn't have to clock in or anything, just hitting quotas if that makes sense). Still, I get what you mean.
cavalier1138 wrote:In addition to what was already said about DC, you might want to check out this thread from someone working in/adjacent to the offices you're likely interested in. I'm not at all confident in UConn's ability to put you anywhere near selective DC positions, but you should ask them whether they've seen it.

Part of the trouble with being a 0L is that you've been pretty successful in your life so far to be able to work where you have and be considering decent law schools. The problem with that success is that it primes you to think that it will carry through into the legal field regardless of where you get your JD. That just isn't how legal hiring works. Like it or not, this is a prestige industry, and the jobs you're targeting (including DC public defenders) almost exclusively pull from top schools.
Thanks, I pm'd them. And I'm taking that into account. I understand since I'm being uncompromising when it comes to retaking, I'll probably have to compromise when it comes to loans/where I attend. Barring an unexpected windfall from GT or another T20 I applied to, it'll likely be a choice between UConn (which, fortunately, does have a semester in DC) and Howard. I think if it comes down to it I'd rather try to get my current DC connections/networking to work for me than a prestigious but expensive school. Worst case scenario I have some student debt and end up a CT public defender, or have to start at the bottom again as a comms person in some DC consulting or nonprofit firm.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:55 pm

denise137 wrote:I think if it comes down to it I'd rather try to get my current DC connections/networking to work for me than a prestigious but expensive school.
I cannot emphasize this enough: that's not how it works for those positions (or for most legal hiring).

The prestigious schools are only expensive for you because you're being so stubborn about retaking. You're literally walking away from tens of thousands of dollars and a viable path to your dream career, and I can't for the life of me figure out what's so important about not at least trying to do better.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:05 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
denise137 wrote:I think if it comes down to it I'd rather try to get my current DC connections/networking to work for me than a prestigious but expensive school.
I cannot emphasize this enough: that's not how it works for those positions (or for most legal hiring).

The prestigious schools are only expensive for you because you're being so stubborn about retaking. You're literally walking away from tens of thousands of dollars and a viable path to your dream career, and I can't for the life of me figure out what's so important about not at least trying to do better.
Because OP is like every other 0L who can’t be bothered to work hard and study correctly for a retake but assumes they will study hard and do at least above median in law school.

Assuming a DC job from UConn is unreasonable, even with some connections. Lots of people have connections and will also have prestige.

What I don’t understand is why OP is even going to law school if they might end up not practicing anyway. The entire scenario is incomprehensible.

Unless OP has a guaranteed job in DC or is willing to work in a small to medium firm in Connecticut, OP is setting themselves up for unnecessary failure and disappointment.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by nixy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:21 am

Npret wrote:What I don’t understand is why OP is even going to law school if they might end up not practicing anyway. The entire scenario is incomprehensible.

Unless OP has a guaranteed job in DC or is willing to work in a small to medium firm in Connecticut, OP is setting themselves up for unnecessary failure and disappointment.
TBF, I read the reference to not practicing as more a response to everyone saying "you will have a hard time getting a job out of UConn" by acknowledging the possibility that law won't work out and saying that if it doesn't the OP will go back to some version of their current job, rather than saying they want to go to law school but not practice. I mean plenty of people go to law school and end up not practicing because they don't get legal jobs - it doesn't mean they didn't want a legal job to begin with.

And they have said they'd be willing to work as a PD in CT, which I think is a pretty feasible option coming out of UConn.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:54 am

nixy wrote:
Npret wrote:What I don’t understand is why OP is even going to law school if they might end up not practicing anyway. The entire scenario is incomprehensible.

Unless OP has a guaranteed job in DC or is willing to work in a small to medium firm in Connecticut, OP is setting themselves up for unnecessary failure and disappointment.
TBF, I read the reference to not practicing as more a response to everyone saying "you will have a hard time getting a job out of UConn" by acknowledging the possibility that law won't work out and saying that if it doesn't the OP will go back to some version of their current job, rather than saying they want to go to law school but not practice. I mean plenty of people go to law school and end up not practicing because they don't get legal jobs - it doesn't mean they didn't want a legal job to begin with.

And they have said they'd be willing to work as a PD in CT, which I think is a pretty feasible option coming out of UConn.
I wonder how many of those people who end up not practicing could have retaken the LSAT and gone to a school with better employment prospects? I’m guessing a fair number given the resistance to retaking that seems to persist on this forum, but its impossible to quantify.

I see the vast difference between in careers working on the Hill or impact litigation and working for the Connecticut PD and I wonder what OP really wants. Maybe as an 0L OP doesn’t know, and that’s fair, but it’s a reason to do more research. If OP wants to stay in Connecticut and be a PD, I agree that’s doable. As far as i know, to get a PD job, OP will be doing clinics and taking classes that lead to that career path while in school. Those classes may not be compatible with a job in DC.

If OP wants a career as a PD in Connecticut, then full scholarship and living at home makes fantastic sense. If OP wants something different from that, we all know what OP needs to do.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:26 am

Npret wrote:As far as i know, to get a PD job, OP will be doing clinics and taking classes that lead to that career path while in school. Those classes may not be compatible with a job in DC.
Yeah, this is pretty important. Unless Connecticut is having trouble getting enough qualified lawyers to apply for PD slots (I doubt it), then that isn't a fallback job. It requires a demonstrated commitment to criminal defense (or an adjacent field if it's a holistic office). Even PD offices that deliberately avoid putting emphasis on school pedigree care deeply about that commitment to the field.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by nixy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:54 am

I agree that a PD job isn’t a fallback, and mentioned earlier that gunning for DC, say, would make it difficult to get jobs that would be more realistic coming out of UConn. I really meant that when everyone in this thread is saying “your chances of getting a job in DC are terrible, you might not get any job out of UConn,” it seems a little unfair to ding the OP as “going to law school when they might not end up practicing” for saying, basically, “if [you are all right about UConn and] I don’t get a legal job I’ll go back to what I’m doing now.” That’s not the OP saying “I don’t know if I want to practice but a JD is versatile and opens lots of doors,”!that’s the OP saying “I hear what you all are telling me about the risk of UConn and if that happens my backup will be to go back to my current job.” You can disagree that that’s a good course of action, but it’s not really fair to say that the scenario is “incomprehensible,” especially when it’s directly responsive to what people are saying in this thread.

(I’m sure some people who don’t practice, don’t because they couldn’t get a legal job. But I think a huge proportion of people who don’t practice, don’t because they figure out they don’t like law, especially if they didn’t really know what to do with their lives and went to law school because they thought it would magically open doors for them. While the OP’s goals are kind of vague, I don’t know that we’re really in that kind of scenario here.)

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by york1614 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:54 am

TLDR: T20-30 for cheap over T14 at sticker/high COA. T14 at sticker/high COA over TT/TTT (unless you're absolutely 100% willing to stay in the city where that TT is located).

Let me start by saying that, through my own fault, my application and decision-making process was garbage. That said, I've been out of law school for around 3 years, and I am very happy with how things worked out. I had extremely similar stats to you, and I went to a T30 for free over a couple T14s at almost sticker. I also took the LSAT one time, and I understand there are reasons you might not be retaking that are more valid than the "laziness" that you're being accused of on this thread. Some (not all) commenters who took the LSAT in undergrad don't understand retaking while you're in the work force isn't a viable option. I chose to go to a school where I could parlay my experience into a job in the field in which I was already working--my interests shifted slightly during law school, and I'm in a new field.

I wouldn't change anything because being debt-free, IMO, is more valuable than anything else. I am also lucky because I did pretty well in law school (cum laude), was EIC of a secondary journal, and had lots of natural networking opportunities through various positions I held in law school. I think you could have similar success based on your undergrad GPA (you likely worked hard in undergrad unless you're just blessed with sharp intellect and are a good writer) and your position in comms/public policy (stereotypically professionals who have interpersonal skills). On the grades front, you'll have to work even harder than you did in undergrad--I know I did at least--but I suspect you at least have a solid work ethic based on your GPA and work experience. If you're a social person, there are ways to leverage your T30 alumni network to your advantage in DC and elsewhere--alumni typically love looking out for their own.

Admittedly, I can't speak to the East Coast experience. I went to law school in a Midwestern state, and I now work in a different Midwestern state. Maybe more experienced commenters will contend that none of this advice applies outside of my Midwestern bubble, but I thought I'd weigh in on your specific question and also affirm your decision to not retake.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by albanach » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:37 pm

denise137 wrote:. I understand since I'm being uncompromising when it comes to retaking, I'll probably have to compromise when it comes to loans/where I attend... Worst case scenario I have some student debt and end up a CT public defender, or have to start at the bottom again as a comms person in some DC consulting or nonprofit firm.
Read what you wrote. In what world does this make sense when a small amount of work now would open up the best law schools in the nation with affordable, if not free, tuition?

What is PSLF goes away? If you plan to incur no debt through your comms work while living at home, how will you commit the hours to PD stuff that gets you a job. I put in about 2,000 hours of legal aid volunteering, with half of that outside of the summers. My friends doing PD stuff now made similar commitments. Add in time to study and you have a pretty packed schedule, made worse by the nature of law school grading which means you're effectively competing against your classmates.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:08 pm

york1614 wrote:TLDR: T20-30 for cheap over T14 at sticker/high COA. T14 at sticker/high COA over TT/TTT (unless you're absolutely 100% willing to stay in the city where that TT is located).

Let me start by saying that, through my own fault, my application and decision-making process was garbage. That said, I've been out of law school for around 3 years, and I am very happy with how things worked out. I had extremely similar stats to you, and I went to a T30 for free over a couple T14s at almost sticker. I also took the LSAT one time, and I understand there are reasons you might not be retaking that are more valid than the "laziness" that you're being accused of on this thread. Some (not all) commenters who took the LSAT in undergrad don't understand retaking while you're in the work force isn't a viable option. I chose to go to a school where I could parlay my experience into a job in the field in which I was already working--my interests shifted slightly during law school, and I'm in a new field.

I wouldn't change anything because being debt-free, IMO, is more valuable than anything else. I am also lucky because I did pretty well in law school (cum laude), was EIC of a secondary journal, and had lots of natural networking opportunities through various positions I held in law school. I think you could have similar success based on your undergrad GPA (you likely worked hard in undergrad unless you're just blessed with sharp intellect and are a good writer) and your position in comms/public policy (stereotypically professionals who have interpersonal skills). On the grades front, you'll have to work even harder than you did in undergrad--I know I did at least--but I suspect you at least have a solid work ethic based on your GPA and work experience. If you're a social person, there are ways to leverage your T30 alumni network to your advantage in DC and elsewhere--alumni typically love looking out for their own.

Admittedly, I can't speak to the East Coast experience. I went to law school in a Midwestern state, and I now work in a different Midwestern state. Maybe more experienced commenters will contend that none of this advice applies outside of my Midwestern bubble, but I thought I'd weigh in on your specific question and also affirm your decision to not retake.
I agree with debt free. But because you think things worked out for you, you can’t assume they will for anyone else. You did OK in law school so looking back, it’s good. What if you didn’t?

There is no way to assume that OP or anyone else will be above median at UConn. Another question, was your goal to stay in the Midwest, or did you want to get a competitive job in the toughest legal market? If your plan was to stay in the Midwest, then you obviously made the right decision. That’s not what OP stated they wanted, though it has changed.

I understand that studying and retaking is difficult when working. But it could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and a better career. I don’t understand how it’s not worth trying. It’s like money has no meaning.

Just because you couldn’t be bothered to retake, it doesn’t mean other people who study correctly can’t improve their score and their admission chances. As we keep saying, OP could be going to a much better school with vastly improved employment prospects for a decent price. I’m reiterating this for the lurkers who read here, as OP clearly is determined to go down this path.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Go Nats! » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:48 pm

I got into UVA with a 165 and a relatively low GPA for that school. I'm a URM and I paid sticker price. Like you, I was aiming for public interest or government work. It was worth the cost. I chose UVA despite the fact that I had full rides from schools in my region for the same reason why you should do the same in your analogous situation: go to prestigious schools at sticker price because they get you a built in cover of credibility and alumni connections. If you wanted to work in Connecticut or some other region, I'd say do that. But you're choosing DC.

You don't want to take the LSAT again so I'm not going to start that argument again. UConn should not be in the discussion if your heart is set to be in DC for public interest or government work. When I applied years ago Georgetown had a good public interest loan forgiveness program, so that could help you out. It's between Berkeley and Georgetown in my mind and that's it. Howard is a possibility too - there's a good alumni network in DC from that school - I just don't know enough about it to recommend.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Npret » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:48 pm

nixy wrote:I agree that a PD job isn’t a fallback, and mentioned earlier that gunning for DC, say, would make it difficult to get jobs that would be more realistic coming out of UConn. I really meant that when everyone in this thread is saying “your chances of getting a job in DC are terrible, you might not get any job out of UConn,” it seems a little unfair to ding the OP as “going to law school when they might not end up practicing” for saying, basically, “if [you are all right about UConn and] I don’t get a legal job I’ll go back to what I’m doing now.” That’s not the OP saying “I don’t know if I want to practice but a JD is versatile and opens lots of doors,”!that’s the OP saying “I hear what you all are telling me about the risk of UConn and if that happens my backup will be to go back to my current job.” You can disagree that that’s a good course of action, but it’s not really fair to say that the scenario is “incomprehensible,” especially when it’s directly responsive to what people are saying in this thread.

(I’m sure some people who don’t practice, don’t because they couldn’t get a legal job. But I think a huge proportion of people who don’t practice, don’t because they figure out they don’t like law, especially if they didn’t really know what to do with their lives and went to law school because they thought it would magically open doors for them. While the OP’s goals are kind of vague, I don’t know that we’re really in that kind of scenario here.)
Sorry if it’s difficult for me to understand the huge disparity of career paths OP is describing. It’s honestly difficult for me to grasp because I’ve never known anyone who wanted to do a competitive job in DC (or anywhere) say they would be happy being a public defender or go back to their old job - which makes law school fairly pointless. (Similarly I’ve never heard anyone who wanted to be a public defender say they wanted a job in DC)

I suppose I’ve been around hard core, driven and determined overachievers too long to grasp OP’s attitude.

Your explanation makes sense to me in a way. So thanks.

york1614

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by york1614 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:54 pm

I agree with debt free. But because you think things worked out for you, you can’t assume they will for anyone else. You did OK in law school so looking back, it’s good. What if you didn’t?

There is no way to assume that OP or anyone else will be above median at UConn. Another question, was your goal to stay in the Midwest, or did you want to get a competitive job in the toughest legal market? If your plan was to stay in the Midwest, then you obviously made the right decision. That’s not what OP stated they wanted, though it has changed.
On the first part, your point is extremely well taken and I agree with the sentiment that 0Ls should never assume they'll be above median anywhere. I was very lucky that law school went OK academically for me. I just saw a couple indicators from OP's original post that would make it seem like OP might have the right foundation for good academic performance in law school.

On the second part, yes, my plan was to stay in the Midwest. It's probably not as wise for OP or someone in her position to come to a T30 in the Midwest if they want to return to the East Coast, but what do you think about them attending a T30 in that region (e.g. BU, BC, W&L, GW) for free/minimal cost instead of a T14 for full price and, let's say, 50% of sticker? (Assuming $$$ after a higher score on retake)
I understand that studying and retaking is difficult when working. But it could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and a better career. I don’t understand how it’s not worth trying. It’s like money has no meaning.

Just because you couldn’t be bothered to retake, it doesn’t mean other people who study correctly can’t improve their score and their admission chances. As we keep saying, OP could be going to a much better school with vastly improved employment prospects for a decent price. I’m reiterating this for the lurkers who read here, as OP clearly is determined to go down this path.
Agree 100% for the lurkers. I should have retaken, if only to broaden my choices. In my original post, I only meant to affirm OP's specific decision as a fine choice. Like you said, it seems "clearly" set in stone, and I can understand there may be personal/professional considerations driving OP's decision separate from any desire to not study for a retake.

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Go Nats!

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by Go Nats! » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:11 pm

The only thing that's 100% certain is that the OP wants to have a career in DC - whether it be impact litigation, public defense or being on the Hill. If that's the case, the answer is relatively simple: Go to a T14, even if it costs sticker, but focus on schools with excellent LRAP programs. If you're serious about public interest and comfortable with 150 to 200K hanging over your head for a ten year period (growing with interest, mind you), you can apply to PSLF if it still exists.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by nixy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:33 pm

I do think that if someone wants to do impact lit stuff aimed at helping the little guy, they might also find being a PD satisfying. I agree that the OP’s goals are kind of unformed though.

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by QContinuum » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:08 pm

york1614 wrote:TLDR: T20-30 for cheap over T14 at sticker/high COA. T14 at sticker/high COA over TT/TTT (unless you're absolutely 100% willing to stay in the city where that TT is located).
But the usual decision shouldn't be between a school ranked in the 20s for cheap or a T13 at sticker. Someone with T13 offers should have a school in the high teens like Vandy or UT with $, which could be the best option.
york1614 wrote:Some (not all) commenters who took the LSAT in undergrad don't understand retaking while you're in the work force isn't a viable option.
I don't mean to demean your (or any other applicant's) challenges. That said, I find it difficult to comprehend why "retaking while you're in the work force isn't a viable option." Plenty of folks work full-time while attending law school part-time - that is the definition of "isn't a viable option," yet people survive (and succeed!) every year. Studying for the LSAT isn't some kind of all-encompassing task requiring 40 hours per week; while undoubtedly challenging, it doesn't hold a candle to the rigors of trying to do well as a 1L, or trying to pass the bar. And the LSAT itself is a half-day test, held on a Saturday, which doesn't usually require time off work. I studied for and took the LSAT while working 60-80 hour weeks. There was zero disruption to my work. I did this by spending time I'd otherwise use to relax or socialize on studying. Sure, my social life took a huge hit (read: became nonexistent) for a few months, but it was doable.

I'll grant that taking the LSAT could be a challenge if working overseas in a country without a LSAT test site. But the vast majority of applicants aren't in that situation.
york1614 wrote:I wouldn't change anything because being debt-free, IMO, is more valuable than anything else. I am also lucky because I did pretty well in law school (cum laude), was EIC of a secondary journal, and had lots of natural networking opportunities through various positions I held in law school. I think you could have similar success based on your undergrad GPA (you likely worked hard in undergrad unless you're just blessed with sharp intellect and are a good writer) and your position in comms/public policy (stereotypically professionals who have interpersonal skills).
Congrats on your success but it's frankly irresponsible to predict that OP would have "similar success based on [their] undergrad GPA." I have almost never encountered a 1L who was lazy or slothful, or who bombed in college. 50% of them still end up below median. There is simply no good reason to expect that one will outperform a majority of one's peers, most of whom will be entering law school with similar undergrad GPAs and LSAT scores.

Also, on a similar note, it's difficult to predict that one would necessarily "out-network" one's peers. At a school outside the T13/T20 where a good job isn't assured, I guarantee the vast majority of students will be trying to squeeze every last bit of juice they can get out of the alumni network.

Finally, I'm also debt-phobic, so I understand and empathize with your strong aversion to debt. But the fact is that being debt-free isn't more valuable than "anything else." Being debt-free but also job-free - a real risk of attending a lower-ranked school - would be a far worse situation than being loaded down in debt but making a BigLaw salary (or having a strong LRAP to rely on, as the T13 provide). Debt-free uber alles isn't the answer. Better yet, here we aren't even encouraging OP to take out insane loans in order to attend a T13. Rather, we're telling her there's a third way, a better way, where OP can minimize debt while also maximizing their job opportunities. They can do this very simply by spending a bit more effort and time on maximizing their LSAT score. Sure, it won't be fun (who likes test prep? no one!), but it's way better than the "not fun" of trying to scramble to nail a D.C. gig out of UConn - if it's even possible depending on OP's law school grades at UConn.
nixy wrote:I do think that if someone wants to do impact lit stuff aimed at helping the little guy, they might also find being a PD satisfying. I agree that the OP’s goals are kind of unformed though.
I mean, yes, I can see that in theory. I've just never seen this in practice. The types of personalities that are drawn to impact lit are the folks who want to be litigating the next Obergefell, the next Brown v. Board, the next Roe, the next Heller. They want to do good, absolutely, but they also want the grandiosity. The limelight. The experience of appearing before the federal appellate courts. These are not generally folks who'd be happy toiling away in relative obscurity on everyday street crime as a PD.

(And as already noted earlier ITT, the path to high-visibility impact litigation also differs quite a bit from the path to being a PD.)

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Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Post by denise137 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:32 pm

york1614 wrote:TLDR: T20-30 for cheap over T14 at sticker/high COA. T14 at sticker/high COA over TT/TTT (unless you're absolutely 100% willing to stay in the city where that TT is located).

Let me start by saying that, through my own fault, my application and decision-making process was garbage. That said, I've been out of law school for around 3 years, and I am very happy with how things worked out. I had extremely similar stats to you, and I went to a T30 for free over a couple T14s at almost sticker. I also took the LSAT one time, and I understand there are reasons you might not be retaking that are more valid than the "laziness" that you're being accused of on this thread. Some (not all) commenters who took the LSAT in undergrad don't understand retaking while you're in the work force isn't a viable option. I chose to go to a school where I could parlay my experience into a job in the field in which I was already working--my interests shifted slightly during law school, and I'm in a new field.

I wouldn't change anything because being debt-free, IMO, is more valuable than anything else. I am also lucky because I did pretty well in law school (cum laude), was EIC of a secondary journal, and had lots of natural networking opportunities through various positions I held in law school. I think you could have similar success based on your undergrad GPA (you likely worked hard in undergrad unless you're just blessed with sharp intellect and are a good writer) and your position in comms/public policy (stereotypically professionals who have interpersonal skills). On the grades front, you'll have to work even harder than you did in undergrad--I know I did at least--but I suspect you at least have a solid work ethic based on your GPA and work experience. If you're a social person, there are ways to leverage your T30 alumni network to your advantage in DC and elsewhere--alumni typically love looking out for their own.

Admittedly, I can't speak to the East Coast experience. I went to law school in a Midwestern state, and I now work in a different Midwestern state. Maybe more experienced commenters will contend that none of this advice applies outside of my Midwestern bubble, but I thought I'd weigh in on your specific question and also affirm your decision to not retake.
Thanks for sharing, this is good to know. I'm unsure why your anecdotal experience is being discounted by the many commentators who are themselves talking about the 3 Hill lawyers they know or how, based on ~their~ knowledge, DC only hires from prestigious schools. I do know I shouldn't assume my law school grades though, but I appreciate your confidence in me.

I guess just to wrap things up, because this has turned into such a negative, contrary thread that really doesn't serve its purpose, I will add that I'm going to bet on myself 10/10, as should everyone following this thread. I'm going to be open to taking out substantial loans at a T14 (or fewer loans at Vanderbilt, fingers crossed) because DC is my dream and I'm going for it.

I'm not commenting on this anymore because the moving goalposts and uninspired shade is corny. I know what I'm capable of and what I've accomplished so far and what I have yet to do. Not everyone wants to retake, and no one has to explain why. Period. That goes for people who score in the 140s all the way up. You repeating a million times that I should retake is not, in fact, saving me any money or making you a hero. If you cannot look at a post and come up with anything outside of repeating over and over to retake, perhaps move on? After all, everyone is just guessing, so perhaps humble yourselves instead of being so high and mighty thinking you are saving someone from the worst mistake of their life. There's always the chance you're being loud and wrong. There's also the chance that you were heard the first time, advice was considered, and other options are solicited.

Thanks to the few of you that offered advice without being awful. Even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear, I appreciate it and will consider it. Someone on this thread said that advice can be rude but true. Yea, it can be, but it doesn't have to be unless you have no interpersonal skills.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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