Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
denise137

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby denise137 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:38 pm

Hi all,

Basics first: 161 LSAT, 3.8 GPA, URM-AA woman

So far I've only been accepted to Georgetown, but I have also applied at GWU, UConn (I'm from CT), Berkeley, and Howard.

My question is, at what price point does it not make sense to go to Georgetown? My scores suggest I'm more likely to get full rides from Howard and UConn, and with the option of living at home should I go back to CT, I could potentially go to school for next to nothing but at a TT (TTT?) school. I don't want to pay sticker for Georgetown, but I've been told that it's worth it to go to a T14 no matter the costs. After graduating, I want to get into public interest/constitutional law if money is not a barrier. What do you think? Is Georgetown my best option regardless of merit aid?

BrainsyK

Bronze
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:37 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby BrainsyK » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:46 pm

A middle ground between a T14 and a TT makes sense here.

denise137

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby denise137 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm

BrainsyK wrote:A middle ground between a T14 and a TT makes sense here.


I should specify that I prefer to practice in the DMV (and frankly live there unless I go to Berkeley or back home). Otherwise, I would apply to Emory and Vanderbilt. That being said, should I be more flexible and apply elsewhere or just wait and see what Georgetown offers? I don't want to wait too late into the admissions cycle to find that Georgetown is giving me nothing.

albanach

Gold
Posts: 1617
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby albanach » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:30 pm

The correct response is to retake, wait a cycle, and get the best of both worlds. You're only a few points away from serious money in the T-14 that will give you must greater flexibility.

Image

User avatar
hoos89

Gold
Posts: 2140
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby hoos89 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:21 am

Retake.

denise137

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby denise137 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 pm

albanach wrote:The correct response is to retake, wait a cycle, and get the best of both worlds. You're only a few points away from serious money in the T-14 that will give you must greater flexibility.


hoos89 wrote:Retake.


If I retake and don't get a higher score I will have wasted a year (on top of this year I've already taken off) ~and~ missed out on the higher salary whatever law degree I get would ensure. I'm not retaking. Plus, I'm not confident I will score significantly higher than (if not the same as) before, making it not worth my time or money at this point. So, with retaking off the table, what would you suggest? I'm prepared to apply to other T20 and TT schools if that makes sense, and because I have a lot of fee waivers, but I do want to be strategic since I'll be doing most schools' optional and scholarship essays.

BrainsyK

Bronze
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:37 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby BrainsyK » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 pm

I'd imagine you'd get 100k+ at least one T14. There's no way to tell which one. W/no retake on the table, I would maybe consider taking a six-figure scholarship at one of the non-metro based T14s (Duke, Cornell, UVA, Mich) if you can get or negotiate your way into one of those.

User avatar
UVA2B

Gold
Posts: 3441
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:15 pm

denise137 wrote:
albanach wrote:The correct response is to retake, wait a cycle, and get the best of both worlds. You're only a few points away from serious money in the T-14 that will give you must greater flexibility.


hoos89 wrote:Retake.


If I retake and don't get a higher score I will have wasted a year (on top of this year I've already taken off) ~and~ missed out on the higher salary whatever law degree I get would ensure. I'm not retaking. Plus, I'm not confident I will score significantly higher than (if not the same as) before, making it not worth my time or money at this point. So, with retaking off the table, what would you suggest? I'm prepared to apply to other T20 and TT schools if that makes sense, and because I have a lot of fee waivers, but I do want to be strategic since I'll be doing most schools' optional and scholarship essays.


Respectfully, this is a really bad line of thinking. You’re accepting something you actually have control over without much thought (the not retaking mindset), while also not appreciating how much value there is in scoring better, without any penalty if you score the same/worse.

Don’t impart some lost wages calculus in deciding to invest this much money in an education, because it’s usually not a fair calculation.

Investing six figures into an education is never a wasted year when you wait a year, despite some impetus to go now. Saving $100k+ on tuition is always the right call, and you have significant gains to make on the LSAT. Someone with a 2.6/178 doesn’t have much growth in scholarship opportunities. But you do. Don’t take that for granted.

Npret

Silver
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby Npret » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:18 pm

Why are you assuming you will have a biglaw job and salary when you haven’t even gone to a single class? Don’t assume a salary from an imaginary job. Make the fiscally responsible decision now.

I doubt you’ll listen because few people ever do. But at least understand that you are going into law because of a salary for a job you have a decent chance of not getting? What will you do then?

denise137

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby denise137 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:04 pm

UVA2B wrote: Respectfully, this is a really bad line of thinking. You’re accepting something you actually have control over without much thought (the not retaking mindset), while also not appreciating how much value there is in scoring better, without any penalty if you score the same/worse.

Don’t impart some lost wages calculus in deciding to invest this much money in an education, because it’s usually not a fair calculation.

Investing six figures into an education is never a wasted year when you wait a year, despite some impetus to go now. Saving $100k+ on tuition is always the right call, and you have significant gains to make on the LSAT. Someone with a 2.6/178 doesn’t have much growth in scholarship opportunities. But you do. Don’t take that for granted.


I'm not retaking the LSAT. I don't want to be rude, but I've already said that. There isn't an argument you can make that will make me change my mind or take another year off, and continued pressure (because that's what this amounts to when one after one I'm being told to do something that I've said is off the table for me) is kind of rude.That being said, the original question was if attending a T14 regardless of cost was better than TT. Now the question includes if T14 is better than T20 regardless of cost.

Npret wrote:Why are you assuming you will have a biglaw job and salary when you haven’t even gone to a single class? Don’t assume a salary from an imaginary job. Make the fiscally responsible decision now.

I doubt you’ll listen because few people ever do. But at least understand that you are going into law because of a salary for a job you have a decent chance of not getting? What will you do then?


I have listened to the advice I've been given thus far, I'm just not following it in this instance. Nor did I ever assume a specific salary-- I'm just certain whatever degree I get will allow me to make more than I'm making now. I think that's a fair assumption, and not nearly the reason I'm going into law in the first place. And if I go to law school and can't find a job after (which, yea, is a real possibility but obviously not the attitude to go into anything with), I'll return to working in public policy/comms. So, any advice/suggestions regarding my original question?

TLDR: Not trying to be rude, but I'm not retaking so stop suggesting it. Any answers/suggestions regarding my original question are still super welcome :)

Npret

Silver
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby Npret » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:15 pm

denise137 wrote:
UVA2B wrote: Respectfully, this is a really bad line of thinking. You’re accepting something you actually have control over without much thought (the not retaking mindset), while also not appreciating how much value there is in scoring better, without any penalty if you score the same/worse.

Don’t impart some lost wages calculus in deciding to invest this much money in an education, because it’s usually not a fair calculation.

Investing six figures into an education is never a wasted year when you wait a year, despite some impetus to go now. Saving $100k+ on tuition is always the right call, and you have significant gains to make on the LSAT. Someone with a 2.6/178 doesn’t have much growth in scholarship opportunities. But you do. Don’t take that for granted.


I'm not retaking the LSAT. I don't want to be rude, but I've already said that. There isn't an argument you can make that will make me change my mind or take another year off, and continued pressure (because that's what this amounts to when one after one I'm being told to do something that I've said is off the table for me) is kind of rude.That being said, the original question was if attending a T14 regardless of cost was better than TT. Now the question includes if T14 is better than T20 regardless of cost.

Npret wrote:Why are you assuming you will have a biglaw job and salary when you haven’t even gone to a single class? Don’t assume a salary from an imaginary job. Make the fiscally responsible decision now.

I doubt you’ll listen because few people ever do. But at least understand that you are going into law because of a salary for a job you have a decent chance of not getting? What will you do then?


I have listened to the advice I've been given thus far, I'm just not following it in this instance. Nor did I ever assume a specific salary-- I'm just certain whatever degree I get will allow me to make more than I'm making now. I think that's a fair assumption, and not nearly the reason I'm going into law in the first place. And if I go to law school and can't find a job after (which, yea, is a real possibility but obviously not the attitude to go into anything with), I'll return to working in public policy/comms. So, any advice/suggestions regarding my original question?

TLDR: Not trying to be rude, but I'm not retaking so stop suggesting it. Any answers/suggestions regarding my original question are still super welcome :)


I assume you know about the stark bimodal salaries of law, etc. So i won’t waste my time with that. There is no guarantee you will even have a job either, much less one making a certain amount or more than you make now.

My answer to your original question is no, don’t go to Georgetown at any cost. Check their employment figure.

objctnyrhnr

Moderator
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:44 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby objctnyrhnr » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:19 pm

Obviously you should retake. You came to this forum to seek advice, and it seems the consensus is universal. Frankly, your attitude on this front is typical of a naive 0L weighing these options; however, that does not necessarily excuse your deciding not to retake because you are getting such consistent and strong advice from people with much more experience (which, again, is what you came here for...even if the advice is not one of the A/B options you provided).

But let’s say hypothetically that a psychic told you that you will live a life of misery if you take a year and retake, and that in this hypothetical you have some sort of 100% certainty that the psychic is correct (and for the sake of this hypothetical, you’re also not completely batshit crazy). (The outlandishness of this hypo should serve, further, to illustrate how dumb it is to refuse to take a year and retake.)

Anyway, in this hypo, if I were you I would pick 3 places up could see yourself living and I would apply to the best (not the second best, with the exception of usc/UCLA and bc/Bu—you could apply to those two pairs) “regional powerhouse” in the area. A regional powerhouse is a term for a school that dominates in the region, and is not completely overshadowed by another school. An example would be BC with something like top third placing in biglaw; see also vandy, wash u, UT, etc.) With your numbers, optimized with these schools’ chances of placing you in a good outcome (together with AA status), you should end up with relatively decent biglaw chances at relatively less of a financial risk through merit aid.

Good luck.

User avatar
hoos89

Gold
Posts: 2140
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby hoos89 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:36 pm

denise137 wrote:I have listened to the advice I've been given thus far, I'm just not following it in this instance. Nor did I ever assume a specific salary-- I'm just certain whatever degree I get will allow me to make more than I'm making now. I think that's a fair assumption, and not nearly the reason I'm going into law in the first place. And if I go to law school and can't find a job after (which, yea, is a real possibility but obviously not the attitude to go into anything with), I'll return to working in public policy/comms. So, any advice/suggestions regarding my original question?

TLDR: Not trying to be rude, but I'm not retaking so stop suggesting it. Any answers/suggestions regarding my original question are still super welcome :)


You know a lot of people even from good schools do not make six figures right? After four-figure monthly debt service payments you very well could be making less than you would be making 3 years from now without going to law school, and falling back to policy/comms with 3 years of lost salary/career advancement and 6 figures of debt is not exactly a great plan B. We're also way overdue for an economic recession so you do risk dumping a ton of money and time into tuition and coming out on the other end in an economy without a ton of jobs available.

In any case...I suggest you apply beyond the schools listed. It's far from too late to do so. You should ask for fee waivers and apply to every school in the top 14 (plus schools like Vandy and WUSTL). GULC is a bit of a trap school...it's ridiculously expensive and doesn't have nearly the employment numbers of schools in the T13, but it's also quite stingy with scholarships. Same can be said of GWU. Even if you're dead set on DC (I would also advise against this), any scholarships from other schools may give you leverage to negotiate for a better scholarship. I also suggest you at a minimum take the January LSAT as you might be able to leverage that result for a higher scholarship without taking a year off (and if not, you'll at least have a better idea whether taking a year off might actually be worth it).

To answer your question: I'd expect total COL for someone with your stats at GULC to be ~$200k. We're not trying to be rude, it's just that it would be reckless of us not to advise you that a few more points on the LSAT could save you $100k and/or get you into a school with materially better employment prospects than GULC, especially because you frankly seem a bit overly optimistic about employment outcomes.

Lolstudent

New
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:34 am

Re: Attend a T14 regardless of COA?

Postby Lolstudent » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:59 pm

Retake.



Return to “Choosing a Law School?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests