Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

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SFSpartan

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby SFSpartan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:Stepped away from this thread for a couple days and I saw that people are saying I threatened OP and are dragging me into that alt screen name thing from another thread? Not sure where any of that came from, but it’s very confusing.

I’ve been suspicious of OP for being a flame from the beginning. I said OP sounds lazy for being unwilling to learn the Lsat to get a full ride. I said OP is naive. If OP is real, OP is naive.

Can somebody explain?


Last paragraph is spot on. OP has a lot of research to do. Not sure what the Debevoise sidebar was about - that was weird.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:50 pm

No, Einstein OP is probably older than your parents and has other priorities than name brand schools. I am a mid-life career changer so I don't have the same needs, but diff ones.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:03 am

Doesn't preclude you being naive about the legal profession and how law schools work, though.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:15 am

The fact is I have been around the block a lot more than the people on these boards; but no, I am not up to date on the LSAT, bc it's not a priority for. Why not? because the continual increase in education every year is ridiculous and unsustainable. When I went to LMU it was $8k/year. I am not going to play that game of $50k/year in tuition. If I could get a full pass -- sure. But otherwise, nope! I will do the cheapo route and my age and business experience will fill in the gaps. Look, it prob is worth it to pay $200k to go to a top 25, but otherwise, well, how is someone going to pay back $200 K in loans? WTF is that? Now if daddy/mommy are paying, diff story. Scholarships, awesome. But those schools can only allocate what percentage of their seats for full rides?

DerKatze

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby DerKatze » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:46 am

I think there is still a bit of the disconnect because the OP doesn't understand why law schools would give out substantial merit aid, so let me try to explain.

Law schools give lots of money away in merit scholarships because it benefits them. Consider it an investment: they give good students free money, and more students will come and pay full tuition.

Essentially, this is because law is very prestige based. OP, you know how everyone was telling you before that you need to go to a good law school to get a good job? You also remember how you said that you thought a large part of the difference in bar pass rates is because better schools attract the best and brightest? Well think about it from two other points of view--from the employers and the law school. Employers look at USNews rankings (and other indicators) to gauge prestige. A large part of both the USNews ranking and other indicators is the publicly released 25th, 50th, and 75th percentiles for undergrad GPA and highest LSAT score. That's why those two numbers matter so much to applicants. From the law school's point of view, they want more people to attend, and more people will attend if it's perceived by employers as a better school. So law schools have to incentivize better students to attend, so that better job opportunities are available to those who do attend, thus increasing the number of students who want to go there. For the above reason, law schools give lots of merit scholarships, including full rides, to people who help them bring up their medians and 75th percentiles. This is why other posters have specifically said you need an LSAT above the schools 75th percentile.

The continual increase in law school tuition that you mentioned is partly so that law schools can afford to give away so much in merit aid. Just make sure you get a sizable scholarship that is not contingent (many lower ranked schools give away contingent scholarships then make it hard for students to keep them), and you're good to go.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby objctnyrhnr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:44 am

SFSpartan wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:Stepped away from this thread for a couple days and I saw that people are saying I threatened OP and are dragging me into that alt screen name thing from another thread? Not sure where any of that came from, but it’s very confusing.

I’ve been suspicious of OP for being a flame from the beginning. I said OP sounds lazy for being unwilling to learn the Lsat to get a full ride. I said OP is naive. If OP is real, OP is naive.

Can somebody explain?


Last paragraph is spot on. OP has a lot of research to do. Not sure what the Debevoise sidebar was about - that was weird.


Appreciate that, but still hoping somebody can shed light on (or attempt to support) the earlier comment that I threatened OP. Obviously, I don’t personally give a shit about what OP does. I’ve stayed with this thread because 1. If it’s a flame, it’s entertaining, and 2. If it’s not a flame, I think there’s at least a chance that we (collectively) can prevent OP from making an enormous mistake, even if there is a bit of tough love involved.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:50 am

Weirdo paranoid poster who decided that because you wrote in short paragraphs and a poster in another thread wrote in short paragraphs, you're the same person? And because the other poster threatened someone and you were them that you were threatening? idk, just someone not very good at the internet, i think - i wouldn't worry about it.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:59 am

DerKatze wrote:I think there is still a bit of the disconnect because the OP doesn't understand why law schools would give out substantial merit aid, so let me try to explain.

Law schools give lots of money away in merit scholarships because it benefits them. Consider it an investment: they give good students free money, and more students will come and pay full tuition.

Essentially, this is because law is very prestige based. OP, you know how everyone was telling you before that you need to go to a good law school to get a good job? You also remember how you said that you thought a large part of the difference in bar pass rates is because better schools attract the best and brightest? Well think about it from two other points of view--from the employers and the law school. Employers look at USNews rankings (and other indicators) to gauge prestige. A large part of both the USNews ranking and other indicators is the publicly released 25th, 50th, and 75th percentiles for undergrad GPA and highest LSAT score. That's why those two numbers matter so much to applicants. From the law school's point of view, they want more people to attend, and more people will attend if it's perceived by employers as a better school. So law schools have to incentivize better students to attend, so that better job opportunities are available to those who do attend, thus increasing the number of students who want to go there. For the above reason, law schools give lots of merit scholarships, including full rides, to people who help them bring up their medians and 75th percentiles. This is why other posters have specifically said you need an LSAT above the schools 75th percentile.

The continual increase in law school tuition that you mentioned is partly so that law schools can afford to give away so much in merit aid. Just make sure you get a sizable scholarship that is not contingent (many lower ranked schools give away contingent scholarships then make it hard for students to keep them), and you're good to go.



Thank you for the well thought out post. No one ever explained it like that. What is contingent aid based on? Is it family income? prospective GPA?
I presumed that scholarships would be for the top 10% applicants only. Is that a fair assumption? For example, USD must have 89% of the students paying full fare? Also, I checked it out, I would not qualify for fed student loans bc I already have an advanced degree. That is fair enough. The system cannot afford to loan out to everyone forever.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:45 am

Re: percentage of students getting scholarships - google [school name] ABA 509. This will get you to a form with annual disclosures that schools have to make to the ABA. It includes percentages of students on scholarships and rough percentages of how much they got.

JohnnieSockran

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
SFSpartan wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:Stepped away from this thread for a couple days and I saw that people are saying I threatened OP and are dragging me into that alt screen name thing from another thread? Not sure where any of that came from, but it’s very confusing.

I’ve been suspicious of OP for being a flame from the beginning. I said OP sounds lazy for being unwilling to learn the Lsat to get a full ride. I said OP is naive. If OP is real, OP is naive.

Can somebody explain?


Last paragraph is spot on. OP has a lot of research to do. Not sure what the Debevoise sidebar was about - that was weird.


Appreciate that, but still hoping somebody can shed light on (or attempt to support) the earlier comment that I threatened OP. Obviously, I don’t personally give a shit about what OP does. I’ve stayed with this thread because 1. If it’s a flame, it’s entertaining, and 2. If it’s not a flame, I think there’s at least a chance that we (collectively) can prevent OP from making an enormous mistake, even if there is a bit of tough love involved.


Also, that poster won't be able to come defend themselves or spread more conspiracy theories, because they posted about your "threats" in the Debevoise thread and were forced to take a "posting vacation" for a few days by the mods.

What a very strange, paranoid little poster.

JohnnieSockran

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:08 pm

Mantrain wrote:
DerKatze wrote:I think there is still a bit of the disconnect because the OP doesn't understand why law schools would give out substantial merit aid, so let me try to explain.

Law schools give lots of money away in merit scholarships because it benefits them. Consider it an investment: they give good students free money, and more students will come and pay full tuition.

Essentially, this is because law is very prestige based. OP, you know how everyone was telling you before that you need to go to a good law school to get a good job? You also remember how you said that you thought a large part of the difference in bar pass rates is because better schools attract the best and brightest? Well think about it from two other points of view--from the employers and the law school. Employers look at USNews rankings (and other indicators) to gauge prestige. A large part of both the USNews ranking and other indicators is the publicly released 25th, 50th, and 75th percentiles for undergrad GPA and highest LSAT score. That's why those two numbers matter so much to applicants. From the law school's point of view, they want more people to attend, and more people will attend if it's perceived by employers as a better school. So law schools have to incentivize better students to attend, so that better job opportunities are available to those who do attend, thus increasing the number of students who want to go there. For the above reason, law schools give lots of merit scholarships, including full rides, to people who help them bring up their medians and 75th percentiles. This is why other posters have specifically said you need an LSAT above the schools 75th percentile.

The continual increase in law school tuition that you mentioned is partly so that law schools can afford to give away so much in merit aid. Just make sure you get a sizable scholarship that is not contingent (many lower ranked schools give away contingent scholarships then make it hard for students to keep them), and you're good to go.



Thank you for the well thought out post. No one ever explained it like that. What is contingent aid based on? Is it family income? prospective GPA?
I presumed that scholarships would be for the top 10% applicants only. Is that a fair assumption? For example, USD must have 89% of the students paying full fare? Also, I checked it out, I would not qualify for fed student loans bc I already have an advanced degree. That is fair enough. The system cannot afford to loan out to everyone forever.


Contingent scollys are typically based on maintaining a certain GPA throughout law school, but you don't want something like that.

Just believe the posters on here (if you aren't a flame and are really here for advice), having a strong LSAT score CAN land you a full ride at some of these not-so-great schools (but still a far better route than going non-ABA).

I'm still not sure you ever responded to why you want to do this. You mentioned that there is not enough money in chiropractic work, so what are you expecting in terms of income by being a solo practitioner of immigration law (or other practice areas, I can't remember)?

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:37 pm

To the very last post,

Where did I say that there is not enough money in chiropractic work? I did not say that. I just do not want to retire as a chiropractor. I am over it. The reasons why I want to study law are deeply personal and I am not sure it should be subject to sanction on these boards. Really, I have enjoyed the discussion but I feel that the study of law does not need to be monopolized by major institutions. No one ever answered me for example, what about the subject of contracts, the material one must learn with respect to common law, UCC and restatement 1 & 2 must be taught at a major institution? Do these major institutions have access to secret law texts and lectures not attainable elsewhere? Go ahead and bash me for pushing the envelope on these questions, but I have asked some rather high legal minds and there is some agreement at what I am getting at. And this whole flame issue-- very childish. What is a flame? When I was a teen, that was a gay guy who was explicitly gay. Is that what you mean? I didnt think so.

dropout

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby dropout » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:42 pm

Mantrain wrote:To the very last post,

Where did I say that there is not enough money in chiropractic work? I did not say that. I just do not want to retire as a chiropractor. I am over it. The reasons why I want to study law are deeply personal and I am not sure it should be subject to sanction on these boards. Really, I have enjoyed the discussion but I feel that the study of law does not need to be monopolized by major institutions. No one ever answered me for example, what about the subject of contracts, the material one must learn with respect to common law, UCC and restatement 1 & 2 must be taught at a major institution? Do these major institutions have access to secret law texts and lectures not attainable elsewhere? Go ahead and bash me for pushing the envelope on these questions, but I have asked some rather high legal minds and there is some agreement at what I am getting at. And this whole flame issue-- very childish. What is a flame? When I was a teen, that was a gay guy who was explicitly gay. Is that what you mean? I didnt think so.


I have attended multiple law schools and i can tell you from experience that the textbooks and instruction provided at different level schools vary substantially

HamlinMcgill

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby HamlinMcgill » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:06 pm

Mantrain wrote:
DerKatze wrote:I think there is still a bit of the disconnect because the OP doesn't understand why law schools would give out substantial merit aid, so let me try to explain.

Law schools give lots of money away in merit scholarships because it benefits them. Consider it an investment: they give good students free money, and more students will come and pay full tuition.

Essentially, this is because law is very prestige based. OP, you know how everyone was telling you before that you need to go to a good law school to get a good job? You also remember how you said that you thought a large part of the difference in bar pass rates is because better schools attract the best and brightest? Well think about it from two other points of view--from the employers and the law school. Employers look at USNews rankings (and other indicators) to gauge prestige. A large part of both the USNews ranking and other indicators is the publicly released 25th, 50th, and 75th percentiles for undergrad GPA and highest LSAT score. That's why those two numbers matter so much to applicants. From the law school's point of view, they want more people to attend, and more people will attend if it's perceived by employers as a better school. So law schools have to incentivize better students to attend, so that better job opportunities are available to those who do attend, thus increasing the number of students who want to go there. For the above reason, law schools give lots of merit scholarships, including full rides, to people who help them bring up their medians and 75th percentiles. This is why other posters have specifically said you need an LSAT above the schools 75th percentile.

The continual increase in law school tuition that you mentioned is partly so that law schools can afford to give away so much in merit aid. Just make sure you get a sizable scholarship that is not contingent (many lower ranked schools give away contingent scholarships then make it hard for students to keep them), and you're good to go.



Thank you for the well thought out post. No one ever explained it like that. What is contingent aid based on? Is it family income? prospective GPA?
I presumed that scholarships would be for the top 10% applicants only. Is that a fair assumption? For example, USD must have 89% of the students paying full fare? Also, I checked it out, I would not qualify for fed student loans bc I already have an advanced degree. That is fair enough. The system cannot afford to loan out to everyone forever.



Pretty much all scholarships are based on merit, meaning essentially your GPA and LSAT score. Contingent scholarships are just a crappy form of a merit scholarship that a school can take away in the middle of law school if your grades aren't good enough. So that's a risky bet to take.

Schools publish a lot of helpful information in their 509 reports. For example here is USD's: https://www.sandiego.edu/law/documents/ ... report.pdf

You can see that 39% of its students received half to full tuition scholarships. 5 students received full scholarships plus a stipend. You can also see the 25th, 50th, and 75th percentiles for GPA and LSAT, which should give you a sense of how competitive you'd be in their applicant pool. You can also look schools up on Law School Numbers to see individual outcomes, but that's more anecdotal because it's just individual people who choose to post their stats.

I would also recommend looking schools up on Law School Transparency. It gives helpful stats about how many students actually get jobs as lawyers, what kinds of jobs they get, and what sort of debt load people graduate with. Here's USD: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/sandiego/

As far as I can tell Abraham Lincoln University doesn't even have to make these stats public because it's not an ABA school. But I did find their bar passage rates online: https://www.alu.edu/academics/law-school-disclosures/

In July 2017, 56 total graduates took the California bar (counting first time and repeaters). 10 passed. And those were only the people who survived the baby bar! Only 6 out of 25 passed the June baby bar and only 3 out 18 passed the October baby bar. Those are pretty dismal numbers.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:16 pm

Mantrain wrote:To the very last post,

Where did I say that there is not enough money in chiropractic work? I did not say that. I just do not want to retire as a chiropractor. I am over it. The reasons why I want to study law are deeply personal and I am not sure it should be subject to sanction on these boards. Really, I have enjoyed the discussion but I feel that the study of law does not need to be monopolized by major institutions. No one ever answered me for example, what about the subject of contracts, the material one must learn with respect to common law, UCC and restatement 1 & 2 must be taught at a major institution? Do these major institutions have access to secret law texts and lectures not attainable elsewhere? Go ahead and bash me for pushing the envelope on these questions, but I have asked some rather high legal minds and there is some agreement at what I am getting at. And this whole flame issue-- very childish. What is a flame? When I was a teen, that was a gay guy who was explicitly gay. Is that what you mean? I didnt think so.

Again, it's likely that non-accredited schools have such terrible bar passage rates in large part b/c they accept basically everyone, so they accept a lot of people who can't get in anywhere else and aren't really capable of passing the bar. So sure, if you are not one of those people, you should be able to learn how to take and pass the bar at an unaccredited school.

That said, there's been quite a lot of research about the deficiencies of online instruction as a means of learning (not suggesting that all online courses are inferior to all face-to-face courses, but overall, people do much worse doing online-only).

Also, with regard to quality of education, it's true that the content is the same wherever you attend. But there's a pretty widespread consensus that the lower-ranked the school, the more it focuses only on the black-letter law/teaching to the test, whereas the higher you go up the food chain, the more instruction you get in thinking critically/like a lawyer and how to approach the law in a kind of broader/more intellectual way (that is, you don't just learn fact a, b, and c about contracts, but how to think about contracts as a whole).

Finally, people continue to focus on ABA-accredited schools because of the concern that you will go through this experience and find you want to do something different with your degree, something that won't be an option b/c of the limited options a non-accredited school provides. People here are about maximizing your options. You can obviously disagree and ignore that.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:25 pm

"
As far as I can tell Abraham Lincoln University doesn't even have to make these stats public because it's not an ABA school. But I did find their bar passage rates online: https://www.alu.edu/academics/law-school-disclosures/

In July 2017, 56 total graduates took the California bar (counting first time and repeaters). 10 passed. And those were only the people who survived the baby bar! Only 6 out of 25 passed the June baby bar and only 3 out 18 passed the October baby bar. Those are pretty dismal numb
ers."

I have to believe that I will pass though much more rapidly than the other candidates should I elect that route bc I am not going to the non-aba out of lack of choice, but given the choice ---- I have a lotta educ behind my belt and have successfully been through licensing exams. I am not underestimating the work at all, I think I will also work much much harder to pass than the other students. Study methods are everything, plus quality.
Those people that didn't pass the BB are not me. I bet none of them have more than bachelor degrees (or very few). I am throwing everything I have to the intelligent well-planned study of law; and once I get out, I will likely do immigration law by getting a small office somewhere (but clerking with my cousin apart from getting my own office first) in the field of immigration. Then I will promote myself to the Hispanic community in S CA. This, of course, could change if I decide to do another field. This is why I am so upset or disappointed that I didn't study law earlier. In chiropractic my opportunities are limited. Law, wow, how many fields to choose from! So next time someone says "there are so many lawyers," remind that person how many fields a law there are.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:38 pm

Mantrain wrote:"
As far as I can tell Abraham Lincoln University doesn't even have to make these stats public because it's not an ABA school. But I did find their bar passage rates online: https://www.alu.edu/academics/law-school-disclosures/

In July 2017, 56 total graduates took the California bar (counting first time and repeaters). 10 passed. And those were only the people who survived the baby bar! Only 6 out of 25 passed the June baby bar and only 3 out 18 passed the October baby bar. Those are pretty dismal numb
ers."

I have to believe that I will pass though much more rapidly than the other candidates should I elect that route bc I am not going to the non-aba out of lack of choice, but given the choice ---- I have a lotta educ behind my belt and have successfully been through licensing exams. I am not underestimating the work at all, I think I will also work much much harder to pass than the other students. Study methods are everything, plus quality.
Those people that didn't pass the BB are not me. I bet none of them have more than bachelor degrees (or very few). I am throwing everything I have to the intelligent well-planned study of law; and once I get out, I will likely do immigration law by getting a small office somewhere (but clerking with my cousin apart from getting my own office first) in the field of immigration. Then I will promote myself to the Hispanic community in S CA. This, of course, could change if I decide to do another field. This is why I am so upset or disappointed that I didn't study law earlier. In chiropractic my opportunities are limited. Law, wow, how many fields to choose from! So next time someone says "there are so many lawyers," remind that person how many fields a law there are.

Which is why it's frequently worth going somewhere that offers more options rather than fewer options.

And there are still a LOT of lawyers. The number of fields of law isn't a good measure of the demand for those fields.

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby JohnnieSockran » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:49 am

Mantrain wrote:To the very last post,

Where did I say that there is not enough money in chiropractic work? I did not say that. I just do not want to retire as a chiropractor. I am over it. The reasons why I want to study law are deeply personal and I am not sure it should be subject to sanction on these boards. Really, I have enjoyed the discussion but I feel that the study of law does not need to be monopolized by major institutions. No one ever answered me for example, what about the subject of contracts, the material one must learn with respect to common law, UCC and restatement 1 & 2 must be taught at a major institution? Do these major institutions have access to secret law texts and lectures not attainable elsewhere? Go ahead and bash me for pushing the envelope on these questions, but I have asked some rather high legal minds and there is some agreement at what I am getting at. And this whole flame issue-- very childish. What is a flame? When I was a teen, that was a gay guy who was explicitly gay. Is that what you mean? I didnt think so.


No, the lack of money issue is exactly what you said. See bolded/underlined from your original post below. Again, you still haven't answered why you think the law is going to solve this money issue for you, especially as a solo practitioner (nothing wrong with going solo, but don't do it just because you think it's a one-way ticket to a mid 6-figure income--it could be for some, but won't be for the vast majority).

With your respect to wondering what a flame is, your point doesn't even deserve a response.

Mantrain wrote:I would like to read what might be some of the impact of me attending an online type distance learning law school. I am currently a doctor of chiropractic and I always wanted to study law. I do not want to retire as a chiropractor -- the profession is too limited an in order to make a lot of money I need to push care I Am not comfortable with "long-term corrective care." I also support my family and I prefer to be able to do an independent study program through a registered correspondence school here in San Diego. (actually the school is located elsewhere in CA but that is not relevant.

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:07 am

"Again, you still haven't answered why you think the law is going to solve this money issue for you, especially as a solo practitioner (nothing wrong with going solo, but don't do it just because you think it's a one-way ticket to a mid 6-figure income--it could be for some, but won't be for the vast majority). "

Yes see the money issue is tied into a passion and it is hard for me to be passionate about certain things in the profession I am in. I have avgd about $100K last few years, and yeah I think I could do better, but what is worse is never knowing how much longer I can continue doing what I am doing both physically and spiritually. So there is not a simple answer to the "why." I actually know a lot of lawyers and all except a handful are in solo -- so I have a pool of mentors. However, none of those mentors more recently went to law school. For example my closest relative can only tell me what it was like about 22 yrs ago to take the bar in CA (he had to take it 2x, my father took it many many times I am told ( I was too young to know) but my father way back when had a FT job and did correspondence school. My dad, when he passed the bar, hung out a shingle and hung out at bars every night to get criminal cases. I do not know how well my dad did, he still works after all these years and hes top tiered in the County but on contract assignments -- They call that panel work. We don't talk much at all.

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby objctnyrhnr » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:15 am

Mantrain wrote:"
As far as I can tell Abraham Lincoln University doesn't even have to make these stats public because it's not an ABA school. But I did find their bar passage rates online: https://www.alu.edu/academics/law-school-disclosures/

In July 2017, 56 total graduates took the California bar (counting first time and repeaters). 10 passed. And those were only the people who survived the baby bar! Only 6 out of 25 passed the June baby bar and only 3 out 18 passed the October baby bar. Those are pretty dismal numb
ers."

I have to believe that I will pass though much more rapidly than the other candidates should I elect that route bc I am not going to the non-aba out of lack of choice, but given the choice ---- I have a lotta educ behind my belt and have successfully been through licensing exams. I am not underestimating the work at all, I think I will also work much much harder to pass than the other students. Study methods are everything, plus quality.
Those people that didn't pass the BB are not me. I bet none of them have more than bachelor degrees (or very few). I am throwing everything I have to the intelligent well-planned study of law; and once I get out, I will likely do immigration law by getting a small office somewhere (but clerking with my cousin apart from getting my own office first) in the field of immigration. Then I will promote myself to the Hispanic community in S CA. This, of course, could change if I decide to do another field. This is why I am so upset or disappointed that I didn't study law earlier. In chiropractic my opportunities are limited. Law, wow, how many fields to choose from! So next time someone says "there are so many lawyers," remind that person how many fields a law there are.


“I think I will also work much harder...than other students”

If you’ve ever heard the term “snowflake” thrown around, this is its epitome.

Take a hypothetical terrible law school where only top 10% gets any real options at all. What do you think happens when 300 students go into their first year of said law school, convinced that they will be in the top 10%, because their work ethic is better than that of everybody else.

How many of those students actually land in the top 10%?

Note: my comment does not even begin address the fact that, in spite of all of the quality advice you’ve gotten on this thread, you’re still conflating the notion of doing well in law school/having a favorable post-law-school outcome with passing the bar.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:24 pm

If you are predicting my imminent demise should I attend a non-aba, what is that based on (your prediction)? The statistics alone? Are you making the assumption that ABA schools provide instructional material that is not otherwise available to pass the bar? Is the contracts taught in an ABA so similar to that tested at the bar, and so diff from that taught at non-aba, for example, and that explains the fail rate from the latter? You see, I am convinced it is the body of students that lower the rates. But I am not representative of the typical Non aba, I am more reflective of an ABA candidate. But I do look forward to my questions being answered re content of instruction.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:55 pm

Mantrain wrote:If you are predicting my imminent demise should I attend a non-aba, what is that based on (your prediction)? The statistics alone? Are you making the assumption that ABA schools provide instructional material that is not otherwise available to pass the bar? Is the contracts taught in an ABA so similar to that tested at the bar, and so diff from that taught at non-aba, for example, and that explains the fail rate from the latter? You see, I am convinced it is the body of students that lower the rates. But I am not representative of the typical Non aba, I am more reflective of an ABA candidate. But I do look forward to my questions being answered re content of instruction.

I already addressed this by pointing out that online education is generally of worse quality than face to face, and that lower ranked schools impart a different approach to the law than higher ranked schools. Beyond that, though, people aren't addressing the quality of education because it's largely beside the point.

Mantrain

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby Mantrain » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:28 pm

yes but from my understanding, I was just talking w someone yesterday who went to Loyola law school, and another who went to Thomas Jefferson. They both made the point that the institutional law education did not help so much for the bar but what was critical were the barbri and similar courses. In CA we can sit for the bar using a non-traditional route. I am thankful for that. And there is an enormity of material available to prep for the CA bar, outside the institutional setting.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby objctnyrhnr » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:42 pm

Mantrain wrote:If you are predicting my imminent demise should I attend a non-aba, what is that based on (your prediction)? The statistics alone? Are you making the assumption that ABA schools provide instructional material that is not otherwise available to pass the bar? Is the contracts taught in an ABA so similar to that tested at the bar, and so diff from that taught at non-aba, for example, and that explains the fail rate from the latter? You see, I am convinced it is the body of students that lower the rates. But I am not representative of the typical Non aba, I am more reflective of an ABA candidate. But I do look forward to my questions being answered re content of instruction.


Dude, the bar is not the issue. Passing the bar is baseline. You don’t go to school to learn how to pass that. You spend 2 months after you graduate learning to pass that. You seem to have it in your head that you train 3 years to pass this relatively easy test. That’s not the case.

If you go to a bad school, you begin at a huge disadvantage. Look at it this way. There are plenty of people with work experience, like you, who decide to do law as a second career at top 30 law schools. Many of them, then, have trouble making it as a lawyer. You would be setting yourself up at an incredible disadvantage relative to those people, as would anybody going to a non-aba approved law school.

Just study for the Lsat, do decently, and get a full ride to a mediocre school (instead of an abysmal one). You seem like a hard worker. You’ll probably pass the bar regardless. Most people do.

nixy

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Re: Decision to enroll on NON ABA School

Postby nixy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:58 pm

Mantrain wrote:yes but from my understanding, I was just talking w someone yesterday who went to Loyola law school, and another who went to Thomas Jefferson. They both made the point that the institutional law education did not help so much for the bar but what was critical were the barbri and similar courses. In CA we can sit for the bar using a non-traditional route. I am thankful for that. And there is an enormity of material available to prep for the CA bar, outside the institutional setting.

The point is (as said above) the bar doesn't matter. So how well the school teaches bar material isn't what matters.



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