Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
northwood

Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 7:29 pm

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby northwood » Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 pm

topetudiant wrote:
northwood wrote:Where are your ties and wheee do you want to practice ?


Boston/DC/NYC (based on work and school). Ideally East Coast, but like I said if I had to find a job in the South, I will do it.


Then I would say either Boston or vandy.. but if you don’t have ties to the south it may be more difficult to get a job you want

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 7:47 am

topetudiant wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
topetudiant wrote:How to PM you? Sorry I'm new to the forum.


lol I think they removed that function actually, what questions do you have? I was in a similar spot as you.


Are a you a Vandy student? Do you know how well Vandy does with job placements out of Tenn/South? I'm not very familiar with South, although i'm not averse to living in the bigger cities, say Atlanta. Do you know if Vandy name carries to the East Coast, or no?


I'm a Vandy alum. Approximately 60% of the class gets either FedClerk/Biglaw. Of the total class size ~10% stay in Tennessee (maybe even a little less). Most students go to NY/TX with a good chunk going ATL/DC as well. We have a decent contingency in LA/SF/CHI but nothing substantial. If you're mainly interested in Boston, you should go to BU (but negotiate that scholly). However if you're just generically interested in NY/DC or any "big market" then Vandy is not a bad option. There is a significant alumni base, and the smaller class sizes (IME) generally means that alumni will go to bat for you when they can.

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 7:49 am

northwood wrote:
topetudiant wrote:
northwood wrote:Where are your ties and wheee do you want to practice ?


Boston/DC/NYC (based on work and school). Ideally East Coast, but like I said if I had to find a job in the South, I will do it.


Then I would say either Boston or vandy.. but if you don’t have ties to the south it may be more difficult to get a job you want


I will note that the ties question is very true for the south generally. With the big exception of Houston (and to a lesser extent, Atlanta), southern markets are not very welcoming to those coming from other regions.

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 8:02 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:
ChangeGoinCome wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:If you want biglaw, none of these are great choices. Each places 30-40% into biglaw, which is nothing compared to the 75+% at each of the t13. I know you don’t want to hear it, but the honest answer if you want biglaw is retake.


Hey buddy, wise guy, why don't you look up Vandy's Biglaw numbers last year. Thanks.


Historically, Vandy has been in the 30-40% range and I'd advise potential students to still treat it as such when making such a big financial decision because it could return there in a second.


So again, https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php.

I'd just advise anyone reading to please take a look at EVERY school's required ABA employment disclosures (sometimes called a 509 report). Boston U for example, has a 42.9% for c/o 2017 (see here: http://www.bu.edu/law/files/2018/03/ABA ... f-2017.pdf).

I know this seems like nitpicking but Vandy has historically (since about '12) been around 40-50% BigLaw/FedClerk, and in the last 2 years bumped up to 60-70%. You're absolutely right, these numbers would take a significant hit if a recession were to hit next year. But that would also be true for schools like Michigan, Virginia, and Duke (which all suffered double-digit employment stats decreases in '08-'09).

If you can go to HYS CCN, do that obviously. With OP's scholarship and current stats however, Vandy makes sense.

User avatar
nealric

Moderator
Posts: 2818
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby nealric » Thu May 31, 2018 9:28 am

sparkytrainer wrote:If you want biglaw, none of these are great choices. Each places 30-40% into biglaw, which is nothing compared to the 75+% at each of the t13. I know you don’t want to hear it, but the honest answer if you want biglaw is retake.


Georgetown is over 50% in 100+ attorney firms- almost 60% if you include fed clerks.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gulc/jobs/

That being said, I don't think Vandy is a bad option, given the OP can likely attend without incurring debt. It may be a bit of a dice-roll on biglaw, but it's a very plausible path to a good legal career.

topetudiant

New
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 11:49 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby topetudiant » Thu May 31, 2018 10:41 am

Thank you all guys.

Truly appreciate all your feedback and comments.

albanach

Silver
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby albanach » Thu May 31, 2018 10:42 am

topetudiant wrote:
I'll be turning 30 actually and have been in the real world for several years now. Have done both consulting and public interest. But I'm glad I can still sound "young" in my posts :) (I just have kept in touch with my "college advisors" so hence I mentioned them in my post, not because I'm still in college. Hell, I wish I was 22 again!)


Since you've been working, bear in mind the opportunity cost. Let's say you could make $70k for the next three years, and since you accept the COA, you can live off about $25k. So you're giving up on about $75k in additional savings over three years. Played well, and after three years or so, you might be able to find a more senior position and earn some more. Maybe your salary goes up to $85k.

So now at graduation from law school, if you don't land biglaw, you're competing for jobs that pay less than if you hadn't gone to school and you've lost $150k ($75k in savings and $75k in potential additional savings). Another few years saving at that rate and you could buy a house outright.

beinghuman

Moderator
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby beinghuman » Thu May 31, 2018 12:13 pm

The reason people on here ask for the LSAT score is because it would allow us to give you better informed advice regarding your schools and whether you should retake. If your score is 155, I would give you a different opinion than if your score were167 for example. Moreover, no one knows who you are really. But do not feel like you have to share it but it's helpful.

Do NOT go to a law with the plan of transferring out after 1L. You have no idea what your rank, GPA, etc will be. You need to go to a school that you are comfortable graduating from. If you end up with a 4.0 and want to transfer, that'd be different but you can cross that bridge when you get there. Right now, you need to assume that you will not be transferring.

I agree with many of the comments here that Georgetown and Vandy are not bad options but the person who posted on the volatility of the market particularly for non t-13 school makes a good point. But since we don't know your LSAT score, it's hard to tell you whether you should risk a retake.



topetudiant wrote:
beinghuman wrote:I typically would agree with Sparky's advice but since you've taken the test 4 times, I'd do some more thinking before rejecting these offers.

Would you mind sharing your scores? My worry is that you might not improve your score, go down, or only gain 1 or 2 points and get pretty much the same offers a year later. I would advise you to retake if you didn't prepare well or had the wrong approach to studying the LSAT.

I agree with Sparky that those schools are not great for big law but they are not bad. Your choices will be limited if you graduate from Georgetown or Vandy and you would need to do well in law school, so do some more research on the schools, do some financial analysis, and see whether it's better for you to wait for a year.


I don't feel comfortable sharing but my LSAT score wasn't exactly stellar. I'm also an older applicant (turning 30). I find that I don't do very well studying and holding my full-time job.

What do you guys think about going to either Vandy or Georgetown and transferring out 1st year?

albanach

Silver
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby albanach » Thu May 31, 2018 1:09 pm

OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 2:57 pm

albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Very good point. Although $117K in Tennessee isn't too bad given the lower COL.

Also the survey you're referencing can be found here: https://www.nalp.org/0617research for anyone that wants to take a look.

sparkytrainer

Silver
Posts: 800
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu May 31, 2018 3:01 pm

albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Agreed, which is how I believe LST does the calculations as well. I personally do 500+ attorney firms and fed clerk numbers. Vandy at its most recent and BEST year had 74/188 students go to 500+ attorney firms (aka actual biglaw) and 18 fed clerks. Assuming all those fed clerks could have gotten biglaw, that is 92 students out of 188, or 49%. So even at Vandy's best year for these numbers, the range I gave was actually much closer to being correct than OneTwoThreeFour's 66% number.

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 4:15 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Agreed, which is how I believe LST does the calculations as well. I personally do 500+ attorney firms and fed clerk numbers. Vandy at its most recent and BEST year had 74/188 students go to 500+ attorney firms (aka actual biglaw) and 18 fed clerks. Assuming all those fed clerks could have gotten biglaw, that is 92 students out of 188, or 49%. So even at Vandy's best year for these numbers, the range I gave was actually much closer to being correct than OneTwoThreeFour's 66% number.


The reason LST does it that way is because it makes way more sense. Not everyone wants to live in a big market. It sometimes makes sense to take 100K at a mid-sized firm in a smaller market, given lower COL. You're right though, the folks at LST probably have NO IDEA what they're doing.

lol @ u. "actual biglaw"

sparkytrainer

Silver
Posts: 800
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu May 31, 2018 4:37 pm

OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Agreed, which is how I believe LST does the calculations as well. I personally do 500+ attorney firms and fed clerk numbers. Vandy at its most recent and BEST year had 74/188 students go to 500+ attorney firms (aka actual biglaw) and 18 fed clerks. Assuming all those fed clerks could have gotten biglaw, that is 92 students out of 188, or 49%. So even at Vandy's best year for these numbers, the range I gave was actually much closer to being correct than OneTwoThreeFour's 66% number.


The reason LST does it that way is because it makes way more sense. Not everyone wants to live in a big market. It sometimes makes sense to take 100K at a mid-sized firm in a smaller market, given lower COL. You're right though, the folks at LST probably have NO IDEA what they're doing.

lol @ u. "actual biglaw"


Right, so you agree your numbers are much more bullshit and misleading than mine. Whether you agree or not that biglaw is a good idea is fine. But it is usually represented as firms with more than 500 attorneys. Firms with 100-500 are more accurately chacterized as midsize firms. It may be better for someone to choose a midsize firm for 100k than biglaw, but the actual percentage of someone getting biglaw at Vandy even in its best possible year is still 49%. Not 66% like you misleadingly stated.

OneTwoThreeFour

New
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:15 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby OneTwoThreeFour » Thu May 31, 2018 4:47 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Agreed, which is how I believe LST does the calculations as well. I personally do 500+ attorney firms and fed clerk numbers. Vandy at its most recent and BEST year had 74/188 students go to 500+ attorney firms (aka actual biglaw) and 18 fed clerks. Assuming all those fed clerks could have gotten biglaw, that is 92 students out of 188, or 49%. So even at Vandy's best year for these numbers, the range I gave was actually much closer to being correct than OneTwoThreeFour's 66% number.


The reason LST does it that way is because it makes way more sense. Not everyone wants to live in a big market. It sometimes makes sense to take 100K at a mid-sized firm in a smaller market, given lower COL. You're right though, the folks at LST probably have NO IDEA what they're doing.

lol @ u. "actual biglaw"


Right, so you agree your numbers are much more bullshit and misleading than mine. Whether you agree or not that biglaw is a good idea is fine. But it is usually represented as firms with more than 500 attorneys. Firms with 100-500 are more accurately chacterized as midsize firms. It may be better for someone to choose a midsize firm for 100k than biglaw, but the actual percentage of someone getting biglaw at Vandy even in its best possible year is still 49%. Not 66% like you misleadingly stated.


Ok.

a. lol what an asshole.
b. I'm just saying that the characterization of "biglaw" as 500+ is extremely arbitrary. Large firms in Nashville, Detroit, Birmingham, and Cincinnati often pay $150K+ and students from VLS do end up there. LST, a noted authority in the area of law school stats agrees with me. I have actual authority while you're spouting bullshit. "Biglaw" is a contextual phrase. Are you sure you're a lawyer? Maybe just a bad one?

P.S. If you really want to die on your very dumb, ill-reasoned "500+ = biglaw" then any other school that sends students to non-major (read: NYC) markets similarly is downgraded (with no good reason, again your reasoning is bad, and you should feel bad). Schools like Michigan, Duke, UVA, Texas all sends students to secondary markets will good pay (and low COL).

If we just care about 500+ then Columbia and UChi are the only schools that matter. But consensus on this board (and top-law-schools.com which all prospective students should visit, it has lots of good members ready to give good advice) is that FedClerk and 101+ firms are also very good outcomes. Peace out.

sparkytrainer

Silver
Posts: 800
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu May 31, 2018 4:53 pm

OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
albanach wrote:
OneTwoThreeFour wrote:This is not even close to being true. https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2017-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Approximately 66% of VLS '17 landed either FedClerk/BigLaw so I'm not sure where the hell you're getting your numbers from.


Probably by not stretching BigLaw to include any firm with 100 lawyers.

The NALP data shows pretty clearly that those folk in the 100-250 lawyer firms are earning quite a bit less (though certainly not the same as a PI attorney).

For 2016, the 25th percentile salary in the 100-250 range was $105k, Median $117.5k, and 75th $117k.

For the 500+ attorney firms, 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles were all $160k.


Agreed, which is how I believe LST does the calculations as well. I personally do 500+ attorney firms and fed clerk numbers. Vandy at its most recent and BEST year had 74/188 students go to 500+ attorney firms (aka actual biglaw) and 18 fed clerks. Assuming all those fed clerks could have gotten biglaw, that is 92 students out of 188, or 49%. So even at Vandy's best year for these numbers, the range I gave was actually much closer to being correct than OneTwoThreeFour's 66% number.


The reason LST does it that way is because it makes way more sense. Not everyone wants to live in a big market. It sometimes makes sense to take 100K at a mid-sized firm in a smaller market, given lower COL. You're right though, the folks at LST probably have NO IDEA what they're doing.

lol @ u. "actual biglaw"


Right, so you agree your numbers are much more bullshit and misleading than mine. Whether you agree or not that biglaw is a good idea is fine. But it is usually represented as firms with more than 500 attorneys. Firms with 100-500 are more accurately chacterized as midsize firms. It may be better for someone to choose a midsize firm for 100k than biglaw, but the actual percentage of someone getting biglaw at Vandy even in its best possible year is still 49%. Not 66% like you misleadingly stated.


Ok.

a. lol what an asshole.
b. I'm just saying that the characterization of "biglaw" as 500+ is extremely arbitrary. Large firms in Nashville, Detroit, Birmingham, and Cincinnati often pay $150K+ and students from VLS do end up there. LST, a noted authority in the area of law school stats agrees with me. I have actual authority while you're spouting bullshit. "Biglaw" is a contextual phrase. Are you sure you're a lawyer? Maybe just a bad one?


You are just such a nice person engaging in ad hominem attacks. Thats cool and you are a great person.

As far as I was aware, biglaw generally refers to the 100 or so vault firms that pay market, which all with the exception of only a few firms, have 500+ attorneys. I believe most people consider firms that pay less than market and are more regional as midsized firms. Either way, there is a gulf of pay between the two groups. I make no claim one is better than the other. But to misleadingly suggest that those midsized firms in smaller markets are "biglaw" is incorrect.

Also, I get everyone wants to defend their school. Personal narratives and all that. But stop being misleading. I acknowledge my numbers from my previous post did not include this years data, but even still, the biglaw placement to biglaw firms paying market is less than 50% at Vandy, while the t13 is placing 75-85%. At the end of the day, OP can make whatever decision he wants. But don't mislead him on saying Nashville firms paying 100k is the same as biglaw in NY or DC or Chicago or other big cities paying 180k plus bonuses.

JimmyLee2010

New
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Vandy ($$) vs. BU ($) vs. Gtown (but have outside funds)

Postby JimmyLee2010 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:44 pm

Let's not hijack OP's thread.

If I were in your shoes I'd go to Vandy assuming there is no compelling reason for you to be in the Boston area.

I would not retake, because you've taken it several times and assuming you actually did the work the first few times you've probably hit your max absent a fluke result. I'm also assuming your actual test scores are somewhere in line with what you were getting on your practice tests. Another thing to consider is the opportunity cost of sitting out another year. (I believe you said you have savings from working after college). If you spend another year at your current job, you are foregoing the difference in your current yearly salary and the first year starting salary at big law. That is a significant factor.

You also should look at the marginal difference between going to a better school in terms of probability of landing a big law job. Going to a t13 does not guarantee big law. Based on recent statistics, going to Northwestern instead of Vandy only increases your big law odds by 12%.



Return to “Choosing a Law School?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests