Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

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Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Columbia (Hamilton)
51
68%
Harvard
24
32%
 
Total votes: 75

hlsperson1111

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby hlsperson1111 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:58 am

jbagelboy wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:It sounds like you want to go to H, but would feel guilty if you made your parents pay for it. It also sounds like your family really would derive some pride/joy out of having you go to H. So ask them: "Hey, this is a tough decision and I want to know what you think I should do. I know you said that you'd be willing to pay for a lot of the cost of going to Harvard, but it's a lot of money for both of us, and I want to make sure that's something you're really OK with before I decide to go there."


This isn’t going to harvard versus not going to law school. This is going to one ivy league law school or another ivy league law school


That's your perspective. But it might not be the perspective of the people who are offering to pay for OP's law school education.

TheProsecutor

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby TheProsecutor » Wed May 02, 2018 1:33 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:
tinman wrote:I’ve thought about this more today, and I think Harvard is the obvious answer. Your family is willing to chip in. They must think it will make them happy to see you at Harvard. Is it better they spend their money on cars, or boats, or vacation? I’m not sure. Assuming your parents are set for retirement (ie, a few million net worth and/or awesome pension), I say take the generous support. My family contributed zero to my law school education, and I still chose Y over the Hamilton. No one really cares where I went to school now—my value is based on my work. But I’m not sure I would have gotten my firm of choice from Columbia. Could I have gotten a biglaw gig regardless? Certainly. But I think some firms are better places to work than other, and you’ll have more options from Harvard. Here is an a small anecdote: not one personal from my YLS class went to Cravath despite like 20+ people getting offers. From HLS you will have more choice than from CLS—for firms, clerkships, etc. Sure the clerkships and firms may pay the same, but I think having more choice is better. Also, if you decide to switch careers into business and go work internationally or something, the Harvard name will have more weight.


In 2006, I choose to take YLS over the Hamilton. People thought it was the dumbest idea ever. I graduated in 2009. By then, lots of CLS kids couldn't find jobs. Choosing YLS seemed pretty smart by the time the recession hit. You never know what the economy is going to do, but Yale and Harvard are always a sure bet for its graduates to be ok. All the other schools, its a gamble. So, i'd choose Harvard, but for slightly different reasons than the post above.


Columbia actually outperformed harvard in 2009 eip because cls moved its recruiting calendar up, and more harvard students wound up without SAs

Know your facts


lol. I said I graduated in 2009. My SA class was actually 2008. Pretty sure Harvard beat out Columbia that year. And 2009 was when firms were rescinding offers. Pretty sure Harvard grads made out better in the rush to get jobs in that scenario. . .

learn to read and comprehend. :)

nixy

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby nixy » Wed May 02, 2018 5:38 pm

I have a hard time thinking the Columbia grads were actually suffering compared to the vast majority of students out there, though.

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tinman

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby tinman » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:04 pm

nixy wrote:I have a hard time thinking the Columbia grads were actually suffering compared to the vast majority of students out there, though.


Agreed! Though it sounds like OP has little risk here
regardless. S/he is awesome enough to get Harvard and Hamilton. Also has generous parents with deeper pockets than most. Also is thoughtful enough to not want to burden parents. I say enjoy Harvard and let your parents enjoy having a kid at Harvard!

Npret

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Npret » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:29 pm

I don’t understand these numbers. What are the actual cost differences?
Next year the total cost for Harvard is 95,800 (you can save $3,364 if you have health insurance)
Tuition is 63,800
The rest is living expenses

Next year the cost for Columbia is $93,740
Tuition is $65,252 plus some random fees that add up to $70,660 with a waivable health fee of $2,991
The rest is living expenses

Can you explain where your numbers come from exactly?
Have you included the yearly increases of Harvard in your calculations?

I think you are underestimating the cost differences,are you including the 50k of your savings?

Edit- I just saw you like DC and California potentially as locations, both schools place well there.
I echo that statements that the Hamilton is higly prestigious when it comes to hiring. Is prestige what you are seeking here?
These questions always confuse me because I don’t understand spending a huge amount of money to get a comparable outcome. So is it just prestige you want here?
Last edited by Npret on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Npret

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Npret » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:34 pm

tinman wrote:
nixy wrote:I have a hard time thinking the Columbia grads were actually suffering compared to the vast majority of students out there, though.


Agreed! Though it sounds like OP has little risk here
regardless. S/he is awesome enough to get Harvard and Hamilton. Also has generous parents with deeper pockets than most. Also is thoughtful enough to not want to burden parents. I say enjoy Harvard and let your parents enjoy having a kid at Harvard!

OPs parents aren’t rich enough to just spend money enjoying a kid at Harvard or he wouldn’t be asking.
That money invested over time is going to give them a larger safety net rather than spending it unnecessarily on law school education.

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby LBJ's Hair » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:37 pm

Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

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Dcc617

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Dcc617 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:19 pm

Are your parents millionaires? If not, then absolutely don’t pay sticker at Harvard over a full ride at Columbia. That’s insane. I’m willing to wager that none of the people telling you to take Harvard are in law school. 0Ls have no clue what they’re talking about.

That’s a life changing amount of money. Harvard does have some marginal advantages over Columbia. However, they’re absolutely not worth that sort of debt. Plus, it doesn’t even sound like you know what you want to do. “Clerking” isn’t a career. Your plans will likely change as you progress through law school. No debt and a bunch of cash from your family is the way to go.

Seriously, I’m a rising 3L at Harvard. I’m doing my SA with people from all over the T14. I have friends who started regretting the obscene debt as soon as they saw their loans.

Save your money and go to an amazing school for free. It’s idiotic not to.

Also,if you ever see anyone tell you to blow off hundreds of thousands of dollars of scholarship money because of Supreme Court clerkship rates, then you know to absolutely ignore that person. That’s completely insane.

Npret

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Npret » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:41 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby LBJ's Hair » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:32 pm

Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.


how did you read that post and conclude that i was telling him to go to Harvard lmao. i said 80% of people at Harvard will do the same thing they'd be doing at Columbia, so he'd be turning down a full ride for no real reason

*i* didn't transfer because im top 3-5% at CLS and that's competitive for like, SCOTUS, so what's the point. but you don't....enter 1L *expecting to be at the top of your class at cls*, right, and top 20% at H may have different clerkship outcomes than top 20% at CLS

so if you have a lot of money and really want to maximize clerkship opps, maybe that's an argument for H over the Hamilton.

Npret

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Npret » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:03 am

LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.


how did you read that post and conclude that i was telling him to go to Harvard lmao. i said 80% of people at Harvard will do the same thing they'd be doing at Columbia, so he'd be turning down a full ride for no real reason

*i* didn't transfer because im top 3-5% at CLS and that's competitive for like, SCOTUS, so what's the point. but you don't....enter 1L *expecting to be at the top of your class at cls*, right, and top 20% at H may have different clerkship outcomes than top 20% at CLS

so if you have a lot of money and really want to maximize clerkship opps, maybe that's an argument for H over the Hamilton.

“Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard.”

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby LBJ's Hair » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:23 pm

Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.


how did you read that post and conclude that i was telling him to go to Harvard lmao. i said 80% of people at Harvard will do the same thing they'd be doing at Columbia, so he'd be turning down a full ride for no real reason

*i* didn't transfer because im top 3-5% at CLS and that's competitive for like, SCOTUS, so what's the point. but you don't....enter 1L *expecting to be at the top of your class at cls*, right, and top 20% at H may have different clerkship outcomes than top 20% at CLS

so if you have a lot of money and really want to maximize clerkship opps, maybe that's an argument for H over the Hamilton.

“Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard.”


reread the part of that sentence where I caveated with "I have a lot of money and don't care about paying for school and am a clerkship nut"

Alive97

Bronze
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby Alive97 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:59 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.


how did you read that post and conclude that i was telling him to go to Harvard lmao. i said 80% of people at Harvard will do the same thing they'd be doing at Columbia, so he'd be turning down a full ride for no real reason

*i* didn't transfer because im top 3-5% at CLS and that's competitive for like, SCOTUS, so what's the point. but you don't....enter 1L *expecting to be at the top of your class at cls*, right, and top 20% at H may have different clerkship outcomes than top 20% at CLS

so if you have a lot of money and really want to maximize clerkship opps, maybe that's an argument for H over the Hamilton.

“Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard.”


reread the part of that sentence where I caveated with "I have a lot of money and don't care about paying for school and am a clerkship nut"


You sound extremely pretentious.

LBJ's Hair

New
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard

Postby LBJ's Hair » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:22 am

Alive97 wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
Npret wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Columbia rising 2L here who was 1) really pissed he didn't get off the H waitlist, and 2) briefly considered transferring after 1L but ultimately decided against (Top 3-5%, academic awards, etc - I would have been accepted had I applied)/

Here's my perspective - there's no difference between Columbia and Harvard in BigLaw. Ie, for 80% of students, the outcomes at H and CLS are identical. You're making $190K a year at a prestigious law firm. Median students can get offers at V10, and IIRC 30% of my class summered at a firm their 1L summer. The "firm" stuff that TLS makes sound so prestigious and amazing...like it's sorta routine.

For government, my perspective is limited to NY, so like SDNY/EDNY. There again - seemingly very similar outcomes? Many, many AUSAs are H and CLS, with YLS too (and I'm sure overrepresented vs their class size; it's Yale). The pipeline is pretty clear: get top 20% grades, work at a V10 in white collar, clerk SDNY/EDNY, and you will have a good shot at AUSA in the most prestigious or w/e district in the country. Tons of people intern/extern because we're in NYC. It's pretty sick. Maybe you can extern USAO as an H student in Boston? Idk.

Now, clerking...is a little different, and why I briefly considered the transfer. Columbia is strong in NY, so SDNY/EDNY clerkships are not unusual. Same with 2nd Cir. But the school's placement stats, particularly compared to its USNWR ranking, is not good. A lot of this has to do with the NYC location: honestly, once you're here, you don't want to leave. I'm not from the area and was intending to apply to appellate positions broadly as soon as my spring semester grades hit when I first entered CLS. Time came, my grades were good enough and...I had second thoughts. Didn't happen. (Hiring plan = 2nd Cir, DC Cir, among others, and their affiliated district courts are refusing to consider anyone with fewer than 4 semesters of grades.) This isn't necessarily bad - it's because NYC is the best city on earth and CLS students don't want to live anywhere else. But it does mean that the school does not have the sort of...national clerkship culture that Yale, Harvard and even UChicago have. It's not part of the school's DNA in a way that NY BigLaw and AUSA is.

You'll see that reflected in the SCOTUS clerkship numbers, which is a decent proxy IMO: the Columbia numbers are lower, and the clerks disproportionately come from 2nd/DC/SDNY/EDNY. The question therefore is...if you're a Columbia student AND willing to go outside the Acela corridor, are you disadvantaged compared to a Harvard applicant? I'd say a little (like the name is better and I'd bet your clerkship office is better than ours), but even as a clerkship gunner who wants DC/feeder, it wasn't enough to get me to bother transferring. With top grades, you're fine. For an incoming student though, a CLS/Yale question is very different: because of their bullshit grading system, basically anyone can clerk. Not the case at CLS and Harvard. (Harvard friends have complained that judges and firms just treat Harvard's Hs as As and Ps as Bs). My grades make me very competitive anyway, so again, it wasn't worth it to transfer even to Yale. But if you're *choosing* your law school and *truly* a gunner, Yale over CLS/Harvard is a no-brainer.

RE Hamilton specifically: it's awesome from a money perspective, but you shouldn't take it for the "prestige." When you're applying for internships/jobs as a 1L, no one gives a shit that you had a good LSAT and college GPA. They care about *law school grades*. (And FWIW a Hamilton isn't predictive of good grades - know several below median kids with it.)

I, candidly, have plenty of money, so I wasn't worried about paying for law school and was a clerkship nut coming in. Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard. But for the vast majority of students, there's no difference in career outcome! So choosing Columbia for the location, the ASW experience, etc is a perfectly reasonable choice. And obviously the $$$. Big deal. Like it would be stupid to choose "Simpson Thacher associate, Harvard alum" over "Simpson Thacher associate, CLS alum, + $150K." A median outcome at H is the same as a median outcome at CLS and, to most people, would not be worth $150K for the extra USNWR spot. Now if you're shooting for that top 10/20% of the class outcome, maybe it does matter. The question is 1) whether you want that (it is truly a *fuckload* more work), and 2) whether you think you can get it.

Ie, do you think you're smarter/are you willing to work harder than 80% of the HLS class? And are you willing to bet the Hamilton money on that? You're really the only person who can answer this question - I don't know you. (FWIW I think most TLS people would answer "yes" to 1. Aaaand we'd end up at the end of 1L and they would be pretty close to median, because that's how a normal distribution works lol. Dunno about 2 though.)

You decided not to go to Harvard when you have plenty of money, but you want OP to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there?
How does that make any sense?
OPs numbers seemed wrong to me from the beginning, but OP never bothered to follow up.

I’m guessing he’s going to Harvard. But that’s ok, someone who appreciates money and the prestige of a named scholarship will gladly take the Hamilton to the bank.


how did you read that post and conclude that i was telling him to go to Harvard lmao. i said 80% of people at Harvard will do the same thing they'd be doing at Columbia, so he'd be turning down a full ride for no real reason

*i* didn't transfer because im top 3-5% at CLS and that's competitive for like, SCOTUS, so what's the point. but you don't....enter 1L *expecting to be at the top of your class at cls*, right, and top 20% at H may have different clerkship outcomes than top 20% at CLS

so if you have a lot of money and really want to maximize clerkship opps, maybe that's an argument for H over the Hamilton.

“Were I in your shoes I would choose Harvard.”


reread the part of that sentence where I caveated with "I have a lot of money and don't care about paying for school and am a clerkship nut"


You sound extremely pretentious.


eh, wasn't intended that way. just laying out in what scenario you'd choose Harvard over CLS and $150K. most people shouldn't do it, but there are situations in which it makes sense - when you're chasing a top 20% outcome

(fwiw, get why this whole discussion annoys some people - they're both amazing options. but OP should do what's best for him/her. maybe it seems pretentious, but doesn't mean it's the wrong move)



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