Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

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cats4evr

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Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby cats4evr » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Hi everyone! Would you advise for someone to go to Loyola with a 2/3 scholarship or to Irvine with little to no aid? Not exactly sure on practice area yet, but I would like to eventually work in a large LA firm. Thanks for the advice. :)

sparkytrainer

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:29 pm

Neither. These are awful choices if you want a big firm. Especially for the prices. The answer here is neither.

beinghuman

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby beinghuman » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:49 pm

I strongly agree. Don't do it!
sparkytrainer wrote:Neither. These are awful choices if you want a big firm. Especially for the prices. The answer here is neither.

cats4evr

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby cats4evr » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:25 pm

The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?

sparkytrainer

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:17 pm

cats4evr wrote:The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?


Not going is always an option. 1- these schools don’t place into the job you want. Even if 1 was true, they are too expensive for the gamble at 5-10% of the chance of the job you want.

Either change the schools or change your employment outlook. These schools at best will give you a decent chance at a small law job paying 40k a year.

cats4evr

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby cats4evr » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:34 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
cats4evr wrote:The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?


Not going is always an option. 1- these schools don’t place into the job you want. Even if 1 was true, they are too expensive for the gamble at 5-10% of the chance of the job you want.

Either change the schools or change your employment outlook. These schools at best will give you a decent chance at a small law job paying 40k a year.


$40k is pretty dramatic. Loyola’s median is $75k and Irvine is almost in the top 20. I know you need to be in Loyola’s top 10% to get biglaw offers. What I’m really asking is if it’s worth choosing Irvine with no aid when Loyola is offering $100k. From what you’re saying, I’m guessing your answer is no.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:08 pm

cats4evr wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
cats4evr wrote:The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?


Not going is always an option. 1- these schools don’t place into the job you want. Even if 1 was true, they are too expensive for the gamble at 5-10% of the chance of the job you want.

Either change the schools or change your employment outlook. These schools at best will give you a decent chance at a small law job paying 40k a year.


$40k is pretty dramatic. Loyola’s median is $75k and Irvine is almost in the top 20. I know you need to be in Loyola’s top 10% to get biglaw offers. What I’m really asking is if it’s worth choosing Irvine with no aid when Loyola is offering $100k. From what you’re saying, I’m guessing your answer is no.


The answer is neither. Irvine places under 10% biglaw and just over 10% fed clerk. So approximately 1/5 to 1/4th of the class has a shot at biglaw. That chance isn't worth spending 50k+ a year for a 20% chance of your preferred outcome. That is a terrible outcome. Loyola LA has approximately 10% biglaw and fed clerks combined, which is god awful as well. Even at a discount, spending money and time for a 10% chance at what you want is ridiculous.

The truthful answer here is you need to stop considering these options. You need to retake, focus on getting that lsat score up so you can get into schools that give you the chance of getting what you want for the right price. Here, neither school gives you the chances AND neither school is at the right price.

Data from LST:
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/irvine/jobs/
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-la/jobs/

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nealric

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby nealric » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:20 pm

cats4evr wrote:The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?


Has someone put a gun to your head? Sitting out is always an option. Neither school gives you a good chance of the outcome you want.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby beinghuman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:33 pm

I don't understand the "It's now or never" attitude that I noticed especially among those admitted to lower ranked schools that don't offer good outcomes.
A friend of mine was debating between two lower ranked schools (with full rides at both). I gave her the same advice but she said that waiting was not an option and now she completely regrets her choice, currently a 3L, has decent grades but not in top 5%, and no job prospects so far. She made a very risky gamble and acted stubbornly and it didn't pay off.

So why would you want to put yourself in that kind of situation?

nealric wrote:
cats4evr wrote:The other option is not going to law school at all this year, which isn't really an option. Why do you say don't do it?


Has someone put a gun to your head? Sitting out is always an option. Neither school gives you a good chance of the outcome you want.

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TFALAWL

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby TFALAWL » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 pm

I work in Irvine so I know a lot of their class and my sense is that just as many % of them get big firm jobs as my own t-10, the difference is that UCI places a lot of its kids into the regional or less prestigious big law (e.g. BBK, Stradling, and Snell for "less prestigious big law").

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby ExperssioUnius » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:21 pm

UCI is easily the correct answer to your question. For a new school it has vaulted up the rankings and continues to climb. With a growing reputation and alum base there is good reason to think its big law placement numbers will improve (assuming the students it draws are inclined toward biglaw). By the time you are in midst of the job hunt, there is a decent chance iUCI will surpass USC in the rankings. The big variable is how will Dean Chem's departure impact UCI's standing?

That said, before you commit to UCI, I should speak with their financial aid or admissions office and see if they will give you some $ in light of your other offer from Loyola. I'm guessing not given that Loyola is not all that comparable of a school but it rarely hurts to try.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:01 pm

ExperssioUnius wrote:UCI is easily the correct answer to your question. For a new school it has vaulted up the rankings and continues to climb. With a growing reputation and alum base there is good reason to think its big law placement numbers will improve (assuming the students it draws are inclined toward biglaw). By the time you are in midst of the job hunt, there is a decent chance iUCI will surpass USC in the rankings. The big variable is how will Dean Chem's departure impact UCI's standing?

That said, before you commit to UCI, I should speak with their financial aid or admissions office and see if they will give you some $ in light of your other offer from Loyola. I'm guessing not given that Loyola is not all that comparable of a school but it rarely hurts to try.


This advice is objectively wrong. OP wants biglaw- UCI gets 10-15% biglaw placement. Even if that goes up slightly, thats still a 1 in 5 chance at biglaw. Any of the t13 schools give you a 75+% chance at biglaw. This is especially true because OP would be paying close to 200k for law school for a 1/5 chance at the job OP wants. If OP got a full ride and was willing to ride the odds, then thats a different conversation.

And there is no inclination that UCI is going to keep going up in the rankings. They have shot up as the first few classes were given a ton of scholarship money, but that is being scaled back and the Dean that literally called every contact he knew to get that biglaw and fed clerk number as high as he could is now gone. Who is going to personally call the partners at the big firms so he could place his top 10% at UCI?

OP, do what you want. But either choice is literally a life ruining choice given your stated goals.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby ExperssioUnius » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:44 pm

sparkytrainer wrote: This advice is objectively wrong. OP wants biglaw- UCI gets 10-15% biglaw placement. Even if that goes up slightly, thats still a 1 in 5 chance at biglaw. Any of the t13 schools give you a 75+% chance at biglaw. This is especially true because OP would be paying close to 200k for law school for a 1/5 chance at the job OP wants. If OP got a full ride and was willing to ride the odds, then thats a different conversation.

And there is no inclination that UCI is going to keep going up in the rankings. They have shot up as the first few classes were given a ton of scholarship money, but that is being scaled back and the Dean that literally called every contact he knew to get that biglaw and fed clerk number as high as he could is now gone. Who is going to personally call the partners at the big firms so he could place his top 10% at UCI?

OP, do what you want. But either choice is literally a life ruining choice given your stated goals.


Your response objectively fails Reading Comprehension 101. My response focused only on the OP''s question of Loyola vs. UCI and not whether OP should go to law school at all. Per Loyola's 2017 stats, only 10% of their class went on to firms with more than 250 lawyers or to a federal clerkship. Thus, an individual at UCI has about twice the chance of reaching OPs goal than does an individual at Loyola. I'll add that if OP goes to law school and does not finish in the top third of his class, OPs fallback options at UCI are likely far better.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:49 pm

ExperssioUnius wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote: This advice is objectively wrong. OP wants biglaw- UCI gets 10-15% biglaw placement. Even if that goes up slightly, thats still a 1 in 5 chance at biglaw. Any of the t13 schools give you a 75+% chance at biglaw. This is especially true because OP would be paying close to 200k for law school for a 1/5 chance at the job OP wants. If OP got a full ride and was willing to ride the odds, then thats a different conversation.

And there is no inclination that UCI is going to keep going up in the rankings. They have shot up as the first few classes were given a ton of scholarship money, but that is being scaled back and the Dean that literally called every contact he knew to get that biglaw and fed clerk number as high as he could is now gone. Who is going to personally call the partners at the big firms so he could place his top 10% at UCI?

OP, do what you want. But either choice is literally a life ruining choice given your stated goals.


Your response objectively fails Reading Comprehension 101. My response focused only on the OP''s question of Loyola vs. UCI and not whether OP should go to law school at all. Per Loyola's 2017 stats, only 10% of their class went on to firms with more than 250 lawyers or to a federal clerkship. Thus, an individual at UCI has about twice the chance of reaching OPs goal than does an individual at Loyola. I'll add that if OP goes to law school and does not finish in the top third of his class, OPs fallback options at UCI are likely far better.


No, the correct answer for OP is neither. You think having a 10-15% shot at biglaw for 200k is a justifiable decision? OP does not have a gun to OP's head. OP can always choose to not go.

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Re: Loyola LA ($$) vs Irvine (no $$)

Postby cats4evr » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:30 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
ExperssioUnius wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote: This advice is objectively wrong. OP wants biglaw- UCI gets 10-15% biglaw placement. Even if that goes up slightly, thats still a 1 in 5 chance at biglaw. Any of the t13 schools give you a 75+% chance at biglaw. This is especially true because OP would be paying close to 200k for law school for a 1/5 chance at the job OP wants. If OP got a full ride and was willing to ride the odds, then thats a different conversation.

And there is no inclination that UCI is going to keep going up in the rankings. They have shot up as the first few classes were given a ton of scholarship money, but that is being scaled back and the Dean that literally called every contact he knew to get that biglaw and fed clerk number as high as he could is now gone. Who is going to personally call the partners at the big firms so he could place his top 10% at UCI?

OP, do what you want. But either choice is literally a life ruining choice given your stated goals.


Your response objectively fails Reading Comprehension 101. My response focused only on the OP''s question of Loyola vs. UCI and not whether OP should go to law school at all. Per Loyola's 2017 stats, only 10% of their class went on to firms with more than 250 lawyers or to a federal clerkship. Thus, an individual at UCI has about twice the chance of reaching OPs goal than does an individual at Loyola. I'll add that if OP goes to law school and does not finish in the top third of his class, OPs fallback options at UCI are likely far better.


No, the correct answer for OP is neither. You think having a 10-15% shot at biglaw for 200k is a justifiable decision? OP does not have a gun to OP's head. OP can always choose to not go.


I know you're trying to give the best advice that you can, and I see where you're coming from. I only studied for the LSAT for a few months and scored in the low 160s. I know if I start studying now and take the December test, I can score much better. So on one hand, I don't want to hold myself back knowing that I can be admitted to much better schools or at least get more scholarship money. The reason I say "not really an option" is exactly what ExperssioUnius was saying--I'm looking for feedback about these two schools specifically. Also, the company I currently work at is closing in a few months and I'm helping my family start a business, so I don't want to deal with LSAT, apps, and a new job search for the next year. There's no gun to my head, but if I can have a similar outcome at one of the two schools I've been admitted to, I'd like to avoid retaking. I'll clearly retake if I decide that I don't want to take the risk.



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