UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

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sparkytrainer

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:44 pm

HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

Most recent biglaw+fed clerkship. Wake had an over 7% jump and UNC had an almost 3% decline. But still:
UNC 24.4%
Wake 20.1%


And just to be clear on the school down tobacco road from UNC- Duke has a 85% biglaw and fed clerk rate. Just to emphasize that Wake's numbers may be increasing and UNC's declining, but they are still putrid.


Some people who are not deadset on biglaw or fed clerkship would rather have a 1/4 chance at those opportunities with little debt, rather than an 85% chance with massive debt. Plenty of people would not make that choice, which is also fair. It's interesting how many people who do well change their tune to biglaw who originally said they wanted to do something PI at a school like UNC.

Still, as you point out, it is important to keep in mind the huge differential between a school like Duke and UNC/Wake. If you absolutely require biglaw, pay up/get a higher LSAT score for a better school than UNC/Wake. But if you think you probably want to do big law in NC (with the opportunity to go do it elsewhere) and would rather that not work out than to have a really good chance of whatever debt you get from a T14 and a spot in NY biglaw, Wake/UNC might be the right choice for you.

It is also important to keep in mind that absolute statements - like "you wont get a good paying job from any of them (if you get a legal job at all) and you are gonna be stuck in that area for the rest of your career" - are as unhelpful as they are untrue. The people with full scholarships going to NY biglaw are, I imagine, pretty happy with that choice at this point and with the benefit of hindsight. Unless the point of saying it is to shock someone out of their impulse to think they are special and will be in whatever percentile needed, then I don't understand why you say it.


Just to point out the flaw in your first sentence, I got more scholarship money from Duke than I did at UNC. And I am not alone. Duke gives out more money per person and has more people on scholarship than UNC does. So to say going to a school like Duke will necessarily guarantee massive debt is just false.

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:56 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

Most recent biglaw+fed clerkship. Wake had an over 7% jump and UNC had an almost 3% decline. But still:
UNC 24.4%
Wake 20.1%


And just to be clear on the school down tobacco road from UNC- Duke has a 85% biglaw and fed clerk rate. Just to emphasize that Wake's numbers may be increasing and UNC's declining, but they are still putrid.


Some people who are not deadset on biglaw or fed clerkship would rather have a 1/4 chance at those opportunities with little debt, rather than an 85% chance with massive debt. Plenty of people would not make that choice, which is also fair. It's interesting how many people who do well change their tune to biglaw who originally said they wanted to do something PI at a school like UNC.

Still, as you point out, it is important to keep in mind the huge differential between a school like Duke and UNC/Wake. If you absolutely require biglaw, pay up/get a higher LSAT score for a better school than UNC/Wake. But if you think you probably want to do big law in NC (with the opportunity to go do it elsewhere) and would rather that not work out than to have a really good chance of whatever debt you get from a T14 and a spot in NY biglaw, Wake/UNC might be the right choice for you.

It is also important to keep in mind that absolute statements - like "you wont get a good paying job from any of them (if you get a legal job at all) and you are gonna be stuck in that area for the rest of your career" - are as unhelpful as they are untrue. The people with full scholarships going to NY biglaw are, I imagine, pretty happy with that choice at this point and with the benefit of hindsight. Unless the point of saying it is to shock someone out of their impulse to think they are special and will be in whatever percentile needed, then I don't understand why you say it.


Just to point out the flaw in your first sentence, I got more scholarship money from Duke than I did at UNC. And I am not alone. Duke gives out more money per person and has more people on scholarship than UNC does. So to say going to a school like Duke will necessarily guarantee massive debt is just false.


That's fine. I should have worded it better. I got way more scholarship money at Duke than UNC too, yet UNC was still way cheaper for me. But you probably mean even adjusting for cost. Either way I didn't say that all people would be in that situation. Some are. So some people would make that choice. Going to Duke does not guarantee massive debt. It's an individual decision. But for a North Carolinian in particular (some people again, not all), there is a very, very good chance that Duke will cost significantly more, despite it giving out more scholarship money.

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:07 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

Most recent biglaw+fed clerkship. Wake had an over 7% jump and UNC had an almost 3% decline. But still:
UNC 24.4%
Wake 20.1%


And just to be clear on the school down tobacco road from UNC- Duke has a 85% biglaw and fed clerk rate. Just to emphasize that Wake's numbers may be increasing and UNC's declining, but they are still putrid.


Some people who are not deadset on biglaw or fed clerkship would rather have a 1/4 chance at those opportunities with little debt, rather than an 85% chance with massive debt. Plenty of people would not make that choice, which is also fair. It's interesting how many people who do well change their tune to biglaw who originally said they wanted to do something PI at a school like UNC.

Still, as you point out, it is important to keep in mind the huge differential between a school like Duke and UNC/Wake. If you absolutely require biglaw, pay up/get a higher LSAT score for a better school than UNC/Wake. But if you think you probably want to do big law in NC (with the opportunity to go do it elsewhere) and would rather that not work out than to have a really good chance of whatever debt you get from a T14 and a spot in NY biglaw, Wake/UNC might be the right choice for you.

It is also important to keep in mind that absolute statements - like "you wont get a good paying job from any of them (if you get a legal job at all) and you are gonna be stuck in that area for the rest of your career" - are as unhelpful as they are untrue. The people with full scholarships going to NY biglaw are, I imagine, pretty happy with that choice at this point and with the benefit of hindsight. Unless the point of saying it is to shock someone out of their impulse to think they are special and will be in whatever percentile needed, then I don't understand why you say it.


Just to point out the flaw in your first sentence, I got more scholarship money from Duke than I did at UNC. And I am not alone. Duke gives out more money per person and has more people on scholarship than UNC does. So to say going to a school like Duke will necessarily guarantee massive debt is just false.


We seem to have very different approaches to advice on here. I don't use absolutes like necessarily or "wont get" or "you are gonna be stuck" in how I describe schools, even if there were schools that I disdain. I use phrases with some room like "some people" because that accounts for how different people have different situations. For the "some people" in that situation, it is applicable. For those not, like you, it is not. That's fine. You're of course 100% right that going to Duke does not necessarily guarantee higher debt and UNC may set you up for higher debt than Duke - ok glad we got that firmly settled. Assuming you got in state after a year was UNC actually going to cost you more than Duke, or did Duke just give you more money? I'm just asking that for my own curiosity, because if UNC was actually going to cost you more, I find that pretty incredible, since I don't know anyone who got into Duke at UNC who does not have a full scholarship or close to it. If you were the outlier there, that's fine, and interesting, but isn't representative of everyone's or even a normal applicant's experience. OTOH if Duke was simply giving you moore money in an absolute sense then I don't think that really matters/is at all helpful other than as an empty talking point given the overall cost is so much different.

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:15 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

Most recent biglaw+fed clerkship. Wake had an over 7% jump and UNC had an almost 3% decline. But still:
UNC 24.4%
Wake 20.1%


And just to be clear on the school down tobacco road from UNC- Duke has a 85% biglaw and fed clerk rate. Just to emphasize that Wake's numbers may be increasing and UNC's declining, but they are still putrid.


Some people who are not deadset on biglaw or fed clerkship would rather have a 1/4 chance at those opportunities with little debt, rather than an 85% chance with massive debt. Plenty of people would not make that choice, which is also fair. It's interesting how many people who do well change their tune to biglaw who originally said they wanted to do something PI at a school like UNC.

Still, as you point out, it is important to keep in mind the huge differential between a school like Duke and UNC/Wake. If you absolutely require biglaw, pay up/get a higher LSAT score for a better school than UNC/Wake. But if you think you probably want to do big law in NC (with the opportunity to go do it elsewhere) and would rather that not work out than to have a really good chance of whatever debt you get from a T14 and a spot in NY biglaw, Wake/UNC might be the right choice for you.

It is also important to keep in mind that absolute statements - like "you wont get a good paying job from any of them (if you get a legal job at all) and you are gonna be stuck in that area for the rest of your career" - are as unhelpful as they are untrue. The people with full scholarships going to NY biglaw are, I imagine, pretty happy with that choice at this point and with the benefit of hindsight. Unless the point of saying it is to shock someone out of their impulse to think they are special and will be in whatever percentile needed, then I don't understand why you say it.


Just to point out the flaw in your first sentence, I got more scholarship money from Duke than I did at UNC. And I am not alone. Duke gives out more money per person and has more people on scholarship than UNC does. So to say going to a school like Duke will necessarily guarantee massive debt is just false.


Also while it's nice that you're proud of Duke, bringing it into a discussion about Wake UNC and Wisconsin is not extremely helpful. Sure Duke is a great school, the poster would probably love to go there. It doesn't seem to be an option, and UNC/Wake are not as bad of options as you made them out to be. Bringing up Duke and then nitpicking my later comments does not add to this discussion or make it better that you make such ridiculously absolute claims and don't walk them back or not do similar things on other threads around this site that don't live up to your Duke Law employment numbers. UNC/Wake/plenty of other schools don't have great (and by comparison to Duke have poor) employment figures for someone dead set on big law + fed clerkship - but those people deserve to know the facts, not just your exaggerations. I hope that you don't do what you did on this thread on other threads. I'd be all about telling people it's absurd to plan on being in the top 25% or whatever, but that's not what you're doing.

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:44 pm

HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
HangingAround wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=276222

Most recent biglaw+fed clerkship. Wake had an over 7% jump and UNC had an almost 3% decline. But still:
UNC 24.4%
Wake 20.1%


And just to be clear on the school down tobacco road from UNC- Duke has a 85% biglaw and fed clerk rate. Just to emphasize that Wake's numbers may be increasing and UNC's declining, but they are still putrid.


Some people who are not deadset on biglaw or fed clerkship would rather have a 1/4 chance at those opportunities with little debt, rather than an 85% chance with massive debt. Plenty of people would not make that choice, which is also fair. It's interesting how many people who do well change their tune to biglaw who originally said they wanted to do something PI at a school like UNC.

Still, as you point out, it is important to keep in mind the huge differential between a school like Duke and UNC/Wake. If you absolutely require biglaw, pay up/get a higher LSAT score for a better school than UNC/Wake. But if you think you probably want to do big law in NC (with the opportunity to go do it elsewhere) and would rather that not work out than to have a really good chance of whatever debt you get from a T14 and a spot in NY biglaw, Wake/UNC might be the right choice for you.

It is also important to keep in mind that absolute statements - like "you wont get a good paying job from any of them (if you get a legal job at all) and you are gonna be stuck in that area for the rest of your career" - are as unhelpful as they are untrue. The people with full scholarships going to NY biglaw are, I imagine, pretty happy with that choice at this point and with the benefit of hindsight. Unless the point of saying it is to shock someone out of their impulse to think they are special and will be in whatever percentile needed, then I don't understand why you say it.


Just to point out the flaw in your first sentence, I got more scholarship money from Duke than I did at UNC. And I am not alone. Duke gives out more money per person and has more people on scholarship than UNC does. So to say going to a school like Duke will necessarily guarantee massive debt is just false.


That's fine. I should have worded it better. I got way more scholarship money at Duke than UNC too, yet UNC was still way cheaper for me. But you probably mean even adjusting for cost. Either way I didn't say that all people would be in that situation. Some are. So some people would make that choice. Going to Duke does not guarantee massive debt. It's an individual decision. But for a North Carolinian in particular (some people again, not all), there is a very, very good chance that Duke will cost significantly more, despite it giving out more scholarship money.


For clarity, Duke was cheaper for total COA than UNC, factoring in scholarships, coa, in-state, etc. I am not alone at Duke either on that front. It costs me less to go to Duke than UNC would have. UNC can be rather stingy, a problem Wake does not have, hence Wake's climb up the ladder and UNC's drop.

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Pomeranian

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:28 pm

New NC Bar Exam numbers are out... Yikes... :shock:

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deadpanic

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby deadpanic » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:16 am

Where is deansmith, who railed on UNC for its bar passage while praising Wake?

Wake’s pass rate for first-time takers was 42.86 percent and its pass rate for repeat takers was 25.00 percent, for an overall passage rate of 33.33 percent.


https://abovethelaw.com/2018/04/first-r ... -not-good/

I guess that beats Charlotte.

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:07 am

Pomeranian wrote:New NC Bar Exam numbers are out... Yikes... :shock:


https://abovethelaw.com/2018/04/first-r ... -not-good/

I wonder how much the switch to the UBE will stop the NC free fall

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby deansmith » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:39 pm

Tiny sample size for February bar. Wake had only 15 students (first timers and repeaters) total take it. Wake consistently outperforms unc in bar despite very similar 1L credentials. More evidence of Dean Martin’s (and the whole place’s) utter incompetence.

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:36 am

deansmith wrote:Tiny sample size for February bar. Wake had only 15 students (first timers and repeaters) total take it. Wake consistently outperforms unc in bar despite very similar 1L credentials. More evidence of Dean Martin’s (and the whole place’s) utter incompetence.


MASSIVE OUTPERFORMANCE deansmith, thanks for coming back to shed your wisdom. You should write a book.


Eighty-five percent (85.48) of the 124 UNC School of Law graduates who took the North Carolina bar exam for the first time in July 2017 passed, according to exam results released by the state’s Board of Law Examiners. This rate represents an increase from 77.99 percent of first-time takers who passed last year’s bar exam.

UNC’s total 2017 passage rate, including first-time and repeat takers, was 80.58 percent, which is higher than the past three years.

Excluding Duke, which had 16 first-time takers sit for the exam, UNC had the second-highest passage rate for first-time takers. UNC was slightly behind Wake Forest (89.71 percent), which had 68 first-time takers.


THEN, in the July 2016 exam Wake also MASSIVELY OUTPERFORMED UNC by THREE ENTIRE PERCENT. Unfortunately, the repeat takes from Wake were at 28.57%, while UNC repeat takers MASSIVELY OUTPERFORMED them at 57.14%.

https://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/law-sch ... 0-years/2/

You're bad at this.

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby JeebsDeadshot » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:41 am

deansmith wrote:Tiny sample size for February bar. Wake had only 15 students (first timers and repeaters) total take it. Wake consistently outperforms unc in bar despite very similar 1L credentials. More evidence of Dean Martin’s (and the whole place’s) utter incompetence.


Guess we figured out where deansmith goes to law school! I guess Wake's considerably worse bar passage rate for February 2018 is just more evidence of UNC's utter incompetence, makes sense. Since you're at Wake, has Dean Suzanne (since you can't seem to get Dean Brinkley's name right) said anything about the 33.33% average pass rate?

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby TheReal1 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 am

deansmith wrote:Tiny sample size for February bar. Wake had only 15 students (first timers and repeaters) total take it. Wake consistently outperforms unc in bar despite very similar 1L credentials. More evidence of Dean Martin’s (and the whole place’s) utter incompetence.


New employment stats show Wake Forest BL + Fed Clerk at ~20% while UNC is ~31% (increase of about 7%). Unfortunately that doesn't fit with your entire narrative about how how horrible UNC is when compared to Wake.

http://career.law.wfu.edu/files/2018/04/Class-of-2017-grad-summary.pdf

http://www.law.unc.edu/documents/career/employmentdata/abapreliminaryemploymentdataapril6.pdf

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:24 pm

TheReal1 wrote:
deansmith wrote:Tiny sample size for February bar. Wake had only 15 students (first timers and repeaters) total take it. Wake consistently outperforms unc in bar despite very similar 1L credentials. More evidence of Dean Martin’s (and the whole place’s) utter incompetence.


New employment stats show Wake Forest BL + Fed Clerk at ~20% while UNC is ~31% (increase of about 7%). Unfortunately that doesn't fit with your entire narrative about how how horrible UNC is when compared to Wake.

http://career.law.wfu.edu/files/2018/04/Class-of-2017-grad-summary.pdf

http://www.law.unc.edu/documents/career/employmentdata/abapreliminaryemploymentdataapril6.pdf


Wow! I had not seen that, and I've never seen UNC that well represented - that's awesome. I'm going to post that around.

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby deansmith » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:29 pm

Don’t forget the 17% of unc grads who can’t find a long-term, full-time job of any kind whatsoever 10 months after graduation.

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby deansmith » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm

Actually 19.5% of unc grads who can’t find long-term, full-time jobs 10 months out. That’s really incredible.

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:44 pm

deansmith wrote:Don’t forget the 17% of unc grads who can’t find a long-term, full-time job of any kind whatsoever 10 months after graduation.


That is the rosy number

LST reports over 30% of UNC law's graduates dont have a long term legal job 10 months after graduation (that is a huge and really shitty number)
and over 20% didn't have ANY full time job, including being a paralegal, barista, or bartender.

Those numbers are pretty brutal.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/unc/jobs/

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HangingAround

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Re: UNC vs Wake vs UW Madison

Postby HangingAround » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:31 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
deansmith wrote:Don’t forget the 17% of unc grads who can’t find a long-term, full-time job of any kind whatsoever 10 months after graduation.


That is the rosy number

LST reports over 30% of UNC law's graduates dont have a long term legal job 10 months after graduation (that is a huge and really shitty number)
and over 20% didn't have ANY full time job, including being a paralegal, barista, or bartender.

Those numbers are pretty brutal.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/unc/jobs/


Those numbers are brutal, but you might as well look at the newer numbers (still very concerning, granted, but improved). The new report has 14 unemployed seeking, 1 unemployed not seeking (will count them to avoid nitpicking), , and 7 part time short term, and 4 part time full term. That's 26/195 or 13.33%, instead of the previous above 20% not in any full time job that you referenced. The link is right there for anyone interested - when they aren't preliminary anymore UNC will report the full info with all the median salaries and all unlike plenty of other schools so it's all out there in its good and bad. The improvements from the 2017 class are, I imagine from taking a look at much higher ranked schools like USC and Emory, in line with being a non-T14 law school in this legal economy rather than being some unique UNC problem (as I admit, the previous numbers could be interpreted as saying).

What is a unique UNC thing is 31% of people from UNC in the class of 2017 getting biglaw+fed clerkship - that objectively outperforms its ranking and 1L class credentials (and now significantly higher ranked Wake Forest) by a long shot - that will also be hard for deansmith to stomach, but I am sure he will be back.

Going to a school the caliber of Wake or UNC is a risk in this economy - I am absolutely not saying that that is not the case. I would not go to either without a scholarship - it's too risky that you won't be good at law school. With that said, as with any decision like this, just get and use the most recent information you can so that you can value the risk and return by your own preferences and financial situation.



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