Illinois $$$$ vs. BC $$ Forum

[jstanhope14]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

[Mullens]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

What’s your LSAT/GPA?

[sparkytrainer]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

[goldenbear2020]

Their biglaw/federal clerkship numbers are comparable (Illinois 37% vs. BC 40%), so Illinois $$$$

[Dr. Nefario]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

[jstanhope14]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

[sparkytrainer]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

thats cool and all but you still have like a 30% chance at biglaw? Get 7 more points on the lsat and go to Duke where you have an 85% chance at biglaw. Its pretty cut and dry.

[Dr. Nefario]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

thats cool and all but you still have like a 30% chance at biglaw? Get 7 more points on the lsat and go to Duke where you have an 85% chance at biglaw. Its pretty cut and dry.

Also, every other applicant will also try and take advantage of that which means more competition.

[jstanhope14]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

[A. Nony Mouse]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Confirmation bias in action, folks. (Also that’s dismissive as fuck.)

[illegallad]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Bless your naive heart. Debt free Illinois grad here not working in Biglaw. I'll take the no debt over the biglaw salary every time. If you have your heart set on biglaw, don't go to Illinois.

[jstanhope14]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Confirmation bias in action, folks. (Also that’s dismissive as fuck.)

It's not dismissive at all, it's precisely a response to a dismissive comment. The fact is that around 30% of Illinois grads are going to get Biglaw and they aren't going to do it by rolling a dice of fumbling into a lucky situation. They'll have decent grades, make connections with alumni, practice their interview skills, and mass mail.

[cavalier1138]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Don't go to law school. Get rich after you author an award-winning text on how to succeed in law school.

Also, a law school moving up the rankings doesn't mean anything, especially for a school like UIUC. It's already the best regional school in Illinois. That school could jump 20 points in the rankings, and it wouldn't change its placement power in the slightest. And it wouldn't mean anything for you, because you would have already graduated.

[blueapple]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Sounds like you have it all figured out so why are you asking for advice?

[A. Nony Mouse]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Confirmation bias in action, folks. (Also that’s dismissive as fuck.)

It's not dismissive at all, it's precisely a response to a dismissive comment. The fact is that around 30% of Illinois grads are going to get Biglaw and they aren't going to do it by rolling a dice of fumbling into a lucky situation. They'll have decent grades, make connections with alumni, practice their interview skills, and mass mail.

Sure, but to claim that none of the other 70% of grads have those qualities and that therefore they didn’t deserve biglaw, and presume that you’ll be part of the 30%, is both rude and wishful thinking.

[jstanhope14]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Don't go to law school. Get rich after you author an award-winning text on how to succeed in law school.

Also, a law school moving up the rankings doesn't mean anything, especially for a school like UIUC. It's already the best regional school in Illinois. That school could jump 20 points in the rankings, and it wouldn't change its placement power in the slightest. And it wouldn't mean anything for you, because you would have already graduated.

That's not what I'm saying. UIUC is actively buying its way back up the rankings for their own sake, which for students means that anyone with a stat above median is getting full tuition (or close to it). There's an arbitrage opportunity in that the placement power of UIUC, which didn't fall with its ranking fell, is currently offered at a huge discount (free), since schools with similar placement (GW, BC/BU, Notre Dame) aren't giving out that much money.

[Dr. Nefario]

Hey guys,

I'm attend a northeastern liberal arts college and an looking to apply to law school in the fall. I want to do biglaw for a number of years to save up some money before settling into something more sustainable. NYC, Boston, DC etc. are mad expensive cities to live in, so I've semi-seriously considered applying to UT and gunning for Dallas-Ft. Worth area biglaw. No ties to Texas whatsoever. Other than UT I'm eyeing schools in the CCN range.

Any tips / advice / guidance? Really have no geographic preference at this point, though eventually I'd like to settle down with a family in the New England region. It would be a lot easier to do with some $$$, though.

FWIW 180k in Dallas gives more than double the buying power of 180k NYC. Rent for a 2 bedroom is as low as $800-$900.

Here's a quote from another thread of yours. If you want to settle down in New England, UIUC is not going to get you there. What other schools have you applied to?

[jstanhope14]

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

Confirmation bias in action, folks. (Also that’s dismissive as fuck.)

It's not dismissive at all, it's precisely a response to a dismissive comment. The fact is that around 30% of Illinois grads are going to get Biglaw and they aren't going to do it by rolling a dice of fumbling into a lucky situation. They'll have decent grades, make connections with alumni, practice their interview skills, and mass mail.

Sure, but to claim that none of the other 70% of grads have those qualities and that therefore they didn’t deserve biglaw, and presume that you’ll be part of the 30%, is both rude and wishful thinking.

Perhaps many or most of the 70% did have those skills, but some of them self-select out of that path and many don't apply the skills to the best of their ability. And I'm sure some just have bad luck, which is why chances aren't 100%, but surely are higher than 30%.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Still making a lot of assumptions about your own performance.

[jstanhope14]

Hey guys,

I'm attend a northeastern liberal arts college and an looking to apply to law school in the fall. I want to do biglaw for a number of years to save up some money before settling into something more sustainable. NYC, Boston, DC etc. are mad expensive cities to live in, so I've semi-seriously considered applying to UT and gunning for Dallas-Ft. Worth area biglaw. No ties to Texas whatsoever. Other than UT I'm eyeing schools in the CCN range.

Any tips / advice / guidance? Really have no geographic preference at this point, though eventually I'd like to settle down with a family in the New England region. It would be a lot easier to do with some $$$, though.

FWIW 180k in Dallas gives more than double the buying power of 180k NYC. Rent for a 2 bedroom is as low as $800-$900.

Here's a quote from another thread of yours. If you want to settle down in New England, UIUC is not going to get you there. What other schools have you applied to?

A handful of years of biglaw with an aggressive savings plan in a city with decent COL will give you the financial means to relocate anywhere you want. Why attend a school with slightly better placement when it means taking on significantly more debt ($100k+) and competing against objectively stronger students?

[runinthefront]

Goals: Clerking and biglaw, no geographic preference. Not afraid of hustling to get the job I want.

Both schools will be totally debt financed.

Illinois: Full tuition scholarship, looking at about $45,000 loans for living expenses.

Boston College: no scholarship info yet, safe to assume $15k-$25k based on ABA 509 data. Tuition and COL will be $135-160k loans.

Does BC's better placement into biglaw justify about $100k+ extra loans?

If your goals are biglaw, neither of these are good options at all.

If your goals are clerking, these are even worse options.

3.66/163. Should probably retake were it not for what I see as a good arbitrage opportunity with UIUC looking to buy their way up the rankings and their employment stats outpacing their class stats.

That's not really how chances work. I'm looking for a slightly more sophisticated analysis. The chances are much higher once you account for all the kids who want govt/PI work, the ones that develop drinking problems, the ones that don't study, and the 10% of students who shouldn't even be in the law school, etc. That probably sums up about 1/4 of the class. Add in the fact that I've read TLS religiously for the past two years, including all the "how to succeed at a top regional" guides, how/when to mass mail threads and such, and the I'd bet the "chances" of getting biglaw are over 50%. And if it doesn't work out for someone, it's probably due to their inability to stick to a disciplined study schedule and put proper effort into networking and developing relationships with alums.

The total number of students at UIUC who will skip OCI because their heart is "set" on gov't/PI work is probably closer to 10 kids, tops, than it is to 1/4 of the student body. Just because because go to law school to do gov't/PI work doesn't mean that they just skip the opportunity to interview for a job that will pay them 30k for a summer.

the number you should discounting is "how many students in the class will NOT participate in 2L OCI, which should increase my chances of BL employment," not "how many students enter law school who want gov't/PI work, don't really care about school, have drinking problems, etc"

[runinthefront]

anyway i would still probably attend UIUC if I were you because it's a good deal and you don't seem like the type of person to likely score higher on a retake and anyway you already have it figured out

[Paul Campos]

Optimism bias consists of exaggerating factors in your favor and discounting other factors.

Examples:

I'll study harder than other people.

You have no idea how hard you will study relative to your classmates.

I'll network better than other people.

Id.

I won't develop a drinking/drug problem and/or depression while in law school.

No way to know this in advance.

Some people don't want big law so they shouldn't be counted in the denominator when estimating chances.

Some people have preexisting social and political connections to big law, or are URMs, or have highly sought after IP backgrounds, etc. In other words the discounting goes in both directions.

If 30% of UIUC students get jobs with big law firms, the most realistic ex ante estimate of your own chances is 30%.

[MT Cicero]

People tend to discount the students who get biglaw from Tier 1 and 2 schools (let's say, schools that put 20-35% into BL + FC) who have family connections or currently work there as paralegals/project assistants. It's not a huge amount, but potentially enough to offset those who won't hustle, drinking problems, etc. (which you overstate). Add in URMs as well.

Many of these people can finish outside the top quarter or so and still be ok for their biglaw job, as long as they don't go too far south grade-wise. Median-ish is fine for most of these folks.

It's just not as simple as "chop off 30% of the kids, and finish in the top 30% of the remaining number." I assign a few more points to hustle than some on these boards, but it's still a dice roll.

*Edit - Scooped by someone with his own Wikipedia page, who pretty much nails it.

[jstanhope14]

People tend to discount the students who get biglaw from Tier 1 and 2 schools (let's say, schools that put 20-35% into BL + FC) who have family connections or currently work there as paralegals/project assistants. It's not a huge amount, but potentially enough to offset those who won't hustle, drinking problems, etc. (which you overstate). Add in URMs as well.

Many of these people can finish outside the top quarter or so and still be ok for their biglaw job, as long as they don't go too far south grade-wise. Median-ish is fine for most of these folks.

It's just not as simple as "chop off 30% of the kids, and finish in the top 30% of the remaining number." I assign a few more points to hustle than some on these boards, but it's still a dice roll.

*Edit - Scooped by someone with his own Wikipedia page, who pretty much nails it.

Thank you, MT Cicero and Paul Campos. Good food for thought.