Tier 2 in NY

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Mikey

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby Mikey » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:52 pm

Brooklyn and Cardozo would be insanely expensive if you got in with your numbers. Most likely sticker or close to it at both, not worth it at all.

You can raise your LSAT score and get into both schools possibly with full rides if that's where you want to go, despite your GPA. Fordham I doubt would happen with your numbers.

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:59 pm

Rigo wrote:Idk maybe Hofstra for a full ride with no class rank stipulations and live at home for family law?
I cringe a bit writing that but can’t think of anything that much better for current numbers.


Understandable. Hofstra makes me cringe a bit too.

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:00 pm

Mikey wrote:Brooklyn and Cardozo would be insanely expensive if you got in with your numbers. Most likely sticker or close to it at both, not worth it at all.

You can raise your LSAT score and get into both schools possibly with full rides if that's where you want to go, despite your GPA. Fordham I doubt would happen with your numbers.



Are they still good schools? Everything I seem to be finding just talks down about them, but when I originally looked at them they looked pretty okay to me.

cavalier1138

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:02 pm

dee16 wrote:
Mikey wrote:Brooklyn and Cardozo would be insanely expensive if you got in with your numbers. Most likely sticker or close to it at both, not worth it at all.

You can raise your LSAT score and get into both schools possibly with full rides if that's where you want to go, despite your GPA. Fordham I doubt would happen with your numbers.



Are they still good schools? Everything I seem to be finding just talks down about them, but when I originally looked at them they looked pretty okay to me.


It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:06 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dee16 wrote:
Mikey wrote:Brooklyn and Cardozo would be insanely expensive if you got in with your numbers. Most likely sticker or close to it at both, not worth it at all.

You can raise your LSAT score and get into both schools possibly with full rides if that's where you want to go, despite your GPA. Fordham I doubt would happen with your numbers.



Are they still good schools? Everything I seem to be finding just talks down about them, but when I originally looked at them they looked pretty okay to me.


It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?



I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.

cavalier1138

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:08 pm

dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?



I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.


Ok, then you need to talk to lawyers and learn a bit about the different career paths available to you before dedicating three years of your life to training for the profession.

It's fine to not know exactly what you want to do, but you definitely have to have a better idea of the answers to these questions, because they have a massive impact on which schools will be the right fit for you.

Mikey

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby Mikey » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:10 pm

dee16 wrote:
I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.

yeah as cavalier said, it depends on what you want to do.

I know 2 dozo grads, and 1 from Brooklyn, 2 went to small firms and 1 went to legal aid. if you want something like that, then they can be decent options but definitely NOT at sticker.

would you be living on your own in Long Island or with family without paying for living expenses?

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:11 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?



I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.


Ok, then you need to talk to lawyers and learn a bit about the different career paths available to you before dedicating three years of your life to training for the profession.

It's fine to not know exactly what you want to do, but you definitely have to have a better idea of the answers to these questions, because they have a massive impact on which schools will be the right fit for you.



Right. I think I just have interests in two separate fields (family and business) and I'm just conflicted.

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:11 pm

Mikey wrote:
dee16 wrote:
I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.

yeah as cavalier said, it depends on what you want to do.

I know 2 dozo grads, and 1 from Brooklyn, 2 went to small firms and 1 went to legal aid. if you want something like that, then they can be decent options but definitely NOT at sticker.

would you be living on your own in Long Island or with family without paying for living expenses?


I'd be living at home just paying my car payment and a credit card bill.

cavalier1138

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:20 pm

dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?



I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.


Ok, then you need to talk to lawyers and learn a bit about the different career paths available to you before dedicating three years of your life to training for the profession.

It's fine to not know exactly what you want to do, but you definitely have to have a better idea of the answers to these questions, because they have a massive impact on which schools will be the right fit for you.



Right. I think I just have interests in two separate fields (family and business) and I'm just conflicted.


Wait, what happened to international law? Family law is entirely doable from Brooklyn or Cardozo. You still shouldn't take on any debt to go there, but that's a very reasonable goal from those schools.

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:23 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
dee16 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:It depends on what you want to do. "International law" isn't terribly specific.

Do you want to work in a big firm? Small firm? Government? NGO? How much do you want to make?



I don't really think I've developed a preference for that yet. In my opinion there's pros for all options. Long Island's cost of living is crazy though, and I'm sure my debt won't be a pretty number, so as much as possible.


Ok, then you need to talk to lawyers and learn a bit about the different career paths available to you before dedicating three years of your life to training for the profession.

It's fine to not know exactly what you want to do, but you definitely have to have a better idea of the answers to these questions, because they have a massive impact on which schools will be the right fit for you.



Right. I think I just have interests in two separate fields (family and business) and I'm just conflicted.


Wait, what happened to international law? Family law is entirely doable from Brooklyn or Cardozo. You still shouldn't take on any debt to go there, but that's a very reasonable goal from those schools.


I think what I'm thinking of is technically more international business law, if that's a thing. But family law is more of where my passion is. I just don't know how successful it will make me. But as both schools aren't worth the debt, then I'll just have to take the Feb LSAT and hope for the best.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby existentialcrisis » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:36 pm

dee16 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
dee16 wrote:
CardozoLaw09 wrote:Re-take your LSAT, score at least a 165, apply to Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo, then pick the school that gives you the most scholarship money. Fordham is the best out of those schools but also the most expensive.

The better your LSAT score, the better your options.



That was my original plan, but Fordham is now likely out of the question, but Brooklyn and Cardozo I could maybe still have a shot at. My more recent problem is certain people in my life telling me that T2 schools won't get me anywhere, which is why I'm now beginning to question my decisions.


International Law isn't really a thing. If you give it a lot of consideration and take the time to find out what it is that different types of attorneys do and determine you want to be one, then by all means retake the LSAT. A T2 can get you "somewhere" if that means working for a small firm or in local government, and you're willing to hustle.

On the other hand, do not go to law school because you don't have another plan/you've always just planned on going. A ton of people do this, and I think it likely has a lot to do with why so many lawyers are unhappy. I think questioning whether law school is for you is a healthy and worthwhile exercise.


I originally wanted to do family law, but my parents have been persuading me out of it. So I think that is more of where my passion would lie. Not to dismiss the fact that I am still quite interested in a career leaning more towards business.


If you decide on family law, then a NY T2 could be an excellent choice, but you need to be retaking the LSAT until it's basically free.

Also, I know it's easier said than done, but you shouldn't let your parents dictate what you want from your career. It's your life not there's, and I'll be they don't have much of an idea of what "business law" actually entails.

There are plenty of excellent reasons not to want to practice family law (or even law at all, but that's a whole different story), and I would do plenty of research into what practicing family law actually means, but your parents not thinking it sounds impressive enough isn't one of them.

dee16 wrote:I think what I'm thinking of is technically more international business law, if that's a thing. But family law is more of where my passion is. I just don't know how successful it will make me. But as both schools aren't worth the debt, then I'll just have to take the Feb LSAT and hope for the best.


I'm not sure what you mean by successful, but biglaw is a temporary job that isn't necessarily a ticket to getting rich and also there are plenty of family lawyers that make lots of money.

dee16

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby dee16 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:48 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
dee16 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
dee16 wrote:
CardozoLaw09 wrote:Re-take your LSAT, score at least a 165, apply to Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo, then pick the school that gives you the most scholarship money. Fordham is the best out of those schools but also the most expensive.

The better your LSAT score, the better your options.



That was my original plan, but Fordham is now likely out of the question, but Brooklyn and Cardozo I could maybe still have a shot at. My more recent problem is certain people in my life telling me that T2 schools won't get me anywhere, which is why I'm now beginning to question my decisions.


International Law isn't really a thing. If you give it a lot of consideration and take the time to find out what it is that different types of attorneys do and determine you want to be one, then by all means retake the LSAT. A T2 can get you "somewhere" if that means working for a small firm or in local government, and you're willing to hustle.

On the other hand, do not go to law school because you don't have another plan/you've always just planned on going. A ton of people do this, and I think it likely has a lot to do with why so many lawyers are unhappy. I think questioning whether law school is for you is a healthy and worthwhile exercise.


I originally wanted to do family law, but my parents have been persuading me out of it. So I think that is more of where my passion would lie. Not to dismiss the fact that I am still quite interested in a career leaning more towards business.


If you decide on family law, then a NY T2 could be an excellent choice, but you need to be retaking the LSAT until it's basically free.

Also, I know it's easier said than done, but you shouldn't let your parents dictate what you want from your career. It's your life not there's, and I'll be they don't have much of an idea of what "business law" actually entails.

There are plenty of excellent reasons not to want to practice family law (or even law at all, but that's a whole different story), and I would do plenty of research into what practicing family law actually means, but your parents not thinking it sounds impressive enough isn't one of them.

dee16 wrote:I think what I'm thinking of is technically more international business law, if that's a thing. But family law is more of where my passion is. I just don't know how successful it will make me. But as both schools aren't worth the debt, then I'll just have to take the Feb LSAT and hope for the best.


I'm not sure what you mean by successful, but biglaw is a temporary job that isn't necessarily a ticket to getting rich and also there are plenty of family lawyers that make lots of money.


Successful to me pretty much just means not broke or worrying about finances on Long Island. My dad is pretty set on me applying ASAP and "handling everything else later." He wasn't happy with me taking the first gap year, it sounds like he'd rather me be in a ton of debt than have me wait and possibly do better on the lsat.

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Johann

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby Johann » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:49 pm

International business law is not a thing.

Family is a thing but you’ll make like 40k until you have enough experience to set up a solo shop and there will be very high risks with that endeavor, though potentially lucrative.

You need to google income based repayment plans and learn about them because that’s basically he only guarantee of your future based on the way you’re talking (completely unfamiliar with legal jobs, completely unfamiliar with types of employers, completely unfamiliar with salary progressions, etc)

Before you retake you need to learn more about all of these.

I graduated from a school like Cardozo with six figure debt. I have a lot of friends who did the same. A lot of colleagues did not properly research outcomes before going to law school. Almost everyone is on income based repayment plans. Tons of my classmates have left the legal industry for other career paths. Lot of people graduated into 35-50k jobs. Lot of people worked doc review for some period.

This shit is a 5-10 year of 50-60 hour work week grind minimum before the six figure salaries hit (3 years of law school and then a few years of apprentice shitlaw/networking for better jobs etc).

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existentialcrisis

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby existentialcrisis » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:52 pm

dee16 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
dee16 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
dee16 wrote:
CardozoLaw09 wrote:Re-take your LSAT, score at least a 165, apply to Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo, then pick the school that gives you the most scholarship money. Fordham is the best out of those schools but also the most expensive.

The better your LSAT score, the better your options.



That was my original plan, but Fordham is now likely out of the question, but Brooklyn and Cardozo I could maybe still have a shot at. My more recent problem is certain people in my life telling me that T2 schools won't get me anywhere, which is why I'm now beginning to question my decisions.


International Law isn't really a thing. If you give it a lot of consideration and take the time to find out what it is that different types of attorneys do and determine you want to be one, then by all means retake the LSAT. A T2 can get you "somewhere" if that means working for a small firm or in local government, and you're willing to hustle.

On the other hand, do not go to law school because you don't have another plan/you've always just planned on going. A ton of people do this, and I think it likely has a lot to do with why so many lawyers are unhappy. I think questioning whether law school is for you is a healthy and worthwhile exercise.


I originally wanted to do family law, but my parents have been persuading me out of it. So I think that is more of where my passion would lie. Not to dismiss the fact that I am still quite interested in a career leaning more towards business.


If you decide on family law, then a NY T2 could be an excellent choice, but you need to be retaking the LSAT until it's basically free.

Also, I know it's easier said than done, but you shouldn't let your parents dictate what you want from your career. It's your life not there's, and I'll be they don't have much of an idea of what "business law" actually entails.

There are plenty of excellent reasons not to want to practice family law (or even law at all, but that's a whole different story), and I would do plenty of research into what practicing family law actually means, but your parents not thinking it sounds impressive enough isn't one of them.

dee16 wrote:I think what I'm thinking of is technically more international business law, if that's a thing. But family law is more of where my passion is. I just don't know how successful it will make me. But as both schools aren't worth the debt, then I'll just have to take the Feb LSAT and hope for the best.


I'm not sure what you mean by successful, but biglaw is a temporary job that isn't necessarily a ticket to getting rich and also there are plenty of family lawyers that make lots of money.


Successful to me pretty much just means not broke or worrying about finances on Long Island. My dad is pretty set on me applying ASAP and "handling everything else later." He wasn't happy with me taking the first gap year, it sounds like he'd rather me be in a ton of debt than have me wait and possibly do better on the lsat.


Yea, that's a shitty situation and I'm sorry.

But there is hard data that you can show him both about (i) the exorbitant cost of law school, (ii) how learnable the LSAT is if you put in the time and (iii) how much cheaper school can be with not all that much improvement.

mcmand

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby mcmand » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:53 pm

dee16 wrote:My dad is pretty set on me applying ASAP and "handling everything else later." He wasn't happy with me taking the first gap year, it sounds like he'd rather me be in a ton of debt than have me wait and possibly do better on the lsat.


The first step towards your legal career needs to be using those persuasive skills to explain to and convince your dad why your decision to maximize your LSAT score and take your time is the right and smart thing to do. The skills you use in doing that will help you in your life and career.

He doesn't understand, so help him understand. Or ask him to give you $150k for tuition, if he gets stubborn. Specifying dollar amounts usually helps in these conversations. You could even use the Dept of Education's student loan calculator.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

goldenbear2020

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby goldenbear2020 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:01 pm

You will not get into any Tier 2 NYC schools with a 3.22/154, which is below both medians at Fordham (3.59/163), Cardozo (3.51/159), St. John's (3.58/158), and Brooklyn (3.35/156).

Retake if you want better options than CUNY and Hofstra.

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:56 pm

Since this was only touched on by Johann, I think it bears repeating that the most money you'll make even from Brooklyn or Cardozo is probably going to top out at around 60k unless you are at the top of your class, in which case you could get big firm jobs paying 180k.

You have to decide whether it's worth taking up 3 years of your life for that kind of outcome with no guarantee of career advancement even if law school is free. Career advancement is possible for sure and you can possibly make a lot more in the future, but again, that's not a guarantee.

You need to tell your dad that law school, especially non-T13 law schools, are not a dependable avenue to a high income.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: Tier 2 in NY

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:54 am

Johann wrote:International law is not a thing. You need to google/LinkedIn more lawyers and read about heir practices.


International law means getting questions about US law at 3am in broken English



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