Fordham v NYU/Columbia

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Fordh

Poll ended at Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:48 pm

Fordham with scholly
10
63%
NYU sticker
6
38%
 
Total votes: 16

ZVBXRPL
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Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:44 pm

Is NYU/Columbia worth sticker or close to sticker (I may be eligible for some FA)? What are the added benefits of N/C degree compared to finishing top 25% of class at Fordham? Interest on sticker is a killer, right?

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE!
Last edited by ZVBXRPL on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:49 pm

You don't have any in-between options? What are your numbers?

And don't think about the benefits of a degree assuming you finish in the top 25%. Assume that you'll finish at median. And in that case, the relative benefit of NYU/CLS is that you still get your biglaw job. But that's a moot point, because your best option should be a lower T14 with money.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:54 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options? What are your numbers?

And don't think about the benefits of a degree assuming you finish in the top 25%. Assume that you'll finish at median. And in that case, the relative benefit of NYU/CLS is that you still get your biglaw job. But that's a moot point, because your best option should be a lower T14 with money.

Edited above post...meant top 25% at Fordham. Only looking at NY for law school.

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:57 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options? What are your numbers?

And don't think about the benefits of a degree assuming you finish in the top 25%. Assume that you'll finish at median. And in that case, the relative benefit of NYU/CLS is that you still get your biglaw job. But that's a moot point, because your best option should be a lower T14 with money.

Edited above post...meant top 25% at Fordham. Only looking at NY for law school.


Ok, you still shouldn't be looking at your outcomes based on top 25%. You need to assume median. If you get top 25%, great, but it's not something you can count on.

And were you only looking at NYC for law school because you want to work in NYC? If so, that was a bad idea. Every T13 school can place you in NYC. Hell, if you're that picky about geography (which is a bad idea in general), it sounds like you probably could get Cornell with money next cycle. But it's hard to tell, because what are your numbers?

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chargers21
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby chargers21 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:17 pm

.
Last edited by chargers21 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:26 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options? What are your numbers?

And don't think about the benefits of a degree assuming you finish in the top 25%. Assume that you'll finish at median. And in that case, the relative benefit of NYU/CLS is that you still get your biglaw job. But that's a moot point, because your best option should be a lower T14 with money.

Edited above post...meant top 25% at Fordham. Only looking at NY for law school.


Ok, you still shouldn't be looking at your outcomes based on top 25%. You need to assume median. If you get top 25%, great, but it's not something you can count on.

And were you only looking at NYC for law school because you want to work in NYC? If so, that was a bad idea. Every T13 school can place you in NYC. Hell, if you're that picky about geography (which is a bad idea in general), it sounds like you probably could get Cornell with money next cycle. But it's hard to tell, because what are your numbers?

Only nyc for law school, so cls/nyu/columbia are only options.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:28 pm

chargers21 wrote:Yeah, if you get into NYU off the WL, I'm guessing splitter or reverse splitter. If mild reverse, UM and Cornell might be in play with money and will get you NYC. If splitter, NU should be there with some money.

.
Last edited by ZVBXRPL on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:33 pm

Ok, I have absolutely no idea what you should do, because turning down the NU and Cornell offers was extremely dumb and may impact your offers at those schools next cycle without an improved LSAT.

I get that you really like NYC, but you cannot limit yourself to NYC schools if you want biglaw. NYU and Columbia are your only good NYC schools for a biglaw job, and frankly, I'm surprised you got a WL with your current LSAT. If you insist on being in NYC for school (again, this is a really, really dumb move), then you have to retake and reapply. No matter how much Fordham is offering, you cannot count on biglaw from that school.

If you had articulated other goals, Fordham might be an ok option. But you haven't, so it isn't.

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Lavitz
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Lavitz » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:46 pm

Is "I can't leave NYC" the new "I can't retake"?

I was going to say Fordham is defensible with that low COA as long as you don't mind missing out on biglaw, but then I saw that 70K in grad school debt. Seems risky to me. I'm not even going to entertain the NYU at sticker hypothetical since it's almost August and you're not off the WL yet. So, as far as I'm concerned, the choice is between (a) going to Fordham with over 100K in debt, and (b) retaking and reapplying to hopefully get similar $$$ and debt load at NYU instead. I'd retake and reapply.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:47 pm

Lavitz wrote:Is "I can't leave NYC" the new "I can't retake"?

I was going to say Fordham is defensible with that low COA as long as you don't mind missing out on biglaw, but then I saw that 70K in grad school debt. Seems risky to me. I'm not even going to entertain the NYU at sticker hypothetical since it's almost August and you're not off the WL yet. So, as far as I'm concerned, the choice is between (a) going to Fordham with over 100K in debt, and (b) retaking and reapplying to hopefully get similar $$$ and debt load at NYU instead. I'd retake and reapply.

Actually I'm under review at NYU and just got feeler email so...

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Lavitz
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Lavitz » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:50 pm

Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:53 pm

Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:54 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.


What do you want to do if you don't get biglaw? And what salary do you plan on making to pay off your debt if you don't get biglaw?

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:56 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.


What do you want to do if you don't get biglaw? And what salary do you plan on making to pay off your debt if you don't get biglaw?

I feel like I'm being set up for something with these questions....mid law (which is def not enugh to pay nyu off)

cavalier1138
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:02 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.


What do you want to do if you don't get biglaw? And what salary do you plan on making to pay off your debt if you don't get biglaw?

I feel like I'm being set up for something with these questions....mid law (which is def not enugh to pay nyu off)


You aren't being "set up". You're being asked to think about what you're doing.

If you don't get biglaw, midlaw is not the likely outcome from Fordham (the fabled "midlaw" firms are generally big firms in smaller markets and are considered harder to land than NYC biglaw). And the question was with regard to Fordham, because it's much more likely that you strike out there than at NYU. The likely outcome from Fordham in the private sector would be small firm work. But you're correct, the salary there would not be sufficient to cover your debt from Fordham or NYU ($100k is still hard to pay off on the small firm salary, especially if you're living in NYC).

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Nebby
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Nebby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:37 pm

Fordham is better than sticker at NYU in this situation

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:40 pm

Nebby wrote:Fordham is better than sticker at NYU in this situation

Why? What if I get some FA and 70k loan interest free? Change things?

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runinthefront
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby runinthefront » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:43 pm

fordham

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Nebby
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Nebby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:49 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
Nebby wrote:Fordham is better than sticker at NYU in this situation

Why? What if I get some FA and 70k loan interest free? Change things?

What if you win the lottery? What if the inevitable heat death of the universe accelerates and we're all dead by 2069?

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby malysh » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Truly cannot understand why you turned down NU/ Cornell with $$. Both of those would have easily gotten you NYU big law. I don't mean to sound judgmental, just geniunely wondering why you made that decision.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby ZVBXRPL » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:00 pm

malysh wrote:Truly cannot understand why you turned down NU/ Cornell with $$. Both of those would have easily gotten you NYU big law. I don't mean to sound judgmental, just geniunely wondering why you made that decision.

The wife didnt want to move.

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby malysh » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:12 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
malysh wrote:Truly cannot understand why you turned down NU/ Cornell with $$. Both of those would have easily gotten you NYU big law. I don't mean to sound judgmental, just geniunely wondering why you made that decision.

The wife didnt want to move.


Ok thanks for clarifying- glad you have a reason at least. As someone moving across country though and therefore understanding the difficulties of moving I think this isn't particularly good reasoning. You mentioned you already have some reasonable amount of debt and adding more $$$ to that sounds horrible. What if you get into big law and hate it? You'll have to be miserable with no ability to quit/ pursue something else because you will be chained to your debt. What if you have some medical emergency or family crisis in 1L and end up below median, possibly striking out on big law and now with super high debt. You never know since shit happens, usually with the worst timing. Personally I guess Id do Fordham but there is a good likelihood of striking out on your goals from there. In the span of things 1 year means nothing so retake (again) and reapply or at least reapply and go to NU/ Cornell this time ( assuming they will take you). For your wife 3 years of life is not as big of a deal as she thinks unless she has some legitimate problems that she really needs to maintain her support network in order to survive. I guess I wouldn't know.

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Augy1 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:24 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.


What do you want to do if you don't get biglaw? And what salary do you plan on making to pay off your debt if you don't get biglaw?

I feel like I'm being set up for something with these questions....mid law (which is def not enugh to pay nyu off)


You aren't being "set up". You're being asked to think about what you're doing.

If you don't get biglaw, midlaw is not the likely outcome from Fordham (the fabled "midlaw" firms are generally big firms in smaller markets and are considered harder to land than NYC biglaw). And the question was with regard to Fordham, because it's much more likely that you strike out there than at NYU. The likely outcome from Fordham in the private sector would be small firm work. But you're correct, the salary there would not be sufficient to cover your debt from Fordham or NYU ($100k is still hard to pay off on the small firm salary, especially if you're living in NYC).


1. What's the average small firm salary in NYC?

2. Looking at the most recent employment data, Fordham places around 40% in BL. Assuming not everyone in the top 40% is shooting for BL and people transfer out, it seems as though even placing around median should give one a decent shot at BL. Do you agree?

3. I completely understand that Fordham is not the school to go to with a BL or bust goals. However, with low COA, decent shot at BL, and willingness to pursue other legal jobs in NYC besides BL, does that make attending Fordham defensible?

Thanks for the insight!

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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby Nebby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:26 pm

Augy1 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Which you didn't mention in OP. But ok, still think answer is retake and reapply. Otherwise, honestly think I'd do Fordham over NYU given how ridiculous sticker + 70K in grad school debt would be.

Already retook and increased score. Took last year off to study and it paid off but not doing it again.


What do you want to do if you don't get biglaw? And what salary do you plan on making to pay off your debt if you don't get biglaw?

I feel like I'm being set up for something with these questions....mid law (which is def not enugh to pay nyu off)


You aren't being "set up". You're being asked to think about what you're doing.

If you don't get biglaw, midlaw is not the likely outcome from Fordham (the fabled "midlaw" firms are generally big firms in smaller markets and are considered harder to land than NYC biglaw). And the question was with regard to Fordham, because it's much more likely that you strike out there than at NYU. The likely outcome from Fordham in the private sector would be small firm work. But you're correct, the salary there would not be sufficient to cover your debt from Fordham or NYU ($100k is still hard to pay off on the small firm salary, especially if you're living in NYC).


1. What's the average small firm salary in NYC?

2. Looking at the most recent employment data, Fordham places around 40% in BL. Assuming not everyone in the top 40% is shooting for BL and people transfer out, it seems as though even placing around median should give one a decent shot at BL. Do you agree?

3. I completely understand that Fordham is not the school to go to with a BL or bust goals. However, with low COA, decent shot at BL, and willingness to pursue other legal jobs in NYC besides BL, does that make attending Fordham defensible?

Thanks for the insight!

Yes Fordham is defensible with the scholarship OP has.

cavalier1138
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Re: Fordham v NYU/Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:32 pm

Nebby wrote:
Augy1 wrote:1. What's the average small firm salary in NYC?

2. Looking at the most recent employment data, Fordham places around 40% in BL. Assuming not everyone in the top 40% is shooting for BL and people transfer out, it seems as though even placing around median should give one a decent shot at BL. Do you agree?

3. I completely understand that Fordham is not the school to go to with a BL or bust goals. However, with low COA, decent shot at BL, and willingness to pursue other legal jobs in NYC besides BL, does that make attending Fordham defensible?

Thanks for the insight!

Yes Fordham is defensible with the scholarship OP has.


I think it would be defensible without the extra $70k in debt the OP is carrying. With that, it's probably better than NYU at sticker (solely because of the lower cost), but I don't think it's a good choice.

Augy, to answer directly:

1. Probably around $60k; I'd assume small firms in NYC have to pay on the higher end of the normal starting salary.

2. That's a lot of assuming. And you can't rely on a single year of biglaw placement to set the tone. Everyone saw a pretty big uptick in biglaw numbers last year. Fordham's average over time tends to be around 33%.

3. Again, if the OP were only looking at that COA, then it would be defensible. And if the OP had indicated real goals beyond a vague backup plan (which is unconvincing, given the insistence that people provide advice based on the OP being in the top quarter of the class), then maybe it would still be defensible. But it seems pretty clear that the OP's goals and finances rely on a biglaw job of some kind.




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