Midwest Law Schools?

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MISaturn2017
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Midwest Law Schools?

Postby MISaturn2017 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:05 pm

I know it is a bit early in the process, but I am planning to take the LSAT in Sept and apply to law schools this cycle. I'd like to have an idea of what I am shooting for as I proceed.

I have been scoring between 160 and 163 consistently on my practice tests. I am still working on them, but got the same of argument let's assume they are close to that range. I am interested in regulatory/administrative law, have been out of school and employed for a little more than a year, and will be attending Michigan State in pursuit of an MPP this fall (I'd like to transfer these credits, but not necessarily a deal breaker). I've lived in Michigan my whole life and would like to practice in the Midwest or (long shot) DC for a state or federal government.

I've been thinking about Wisconsin, U of Illinois, Indiana, and Mich. State.

Going to the schools I listed, would the degrees be portable to another midwestern state, including my home state, for what I want to do? Would MSU set me up for this in MI since I'm already there for grad school? Are there other good/better schools I should be considering?

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UVA2B
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby UVA2B » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Of the schools you've listed, you can essentially rule out any possibility of working for the federal government, and I hope you're okay with that. On the state level, if you want to work in MI, your best bet is to go to a school in MI so you can intern, extern, and network with the state agencies in MI. That means MSU at the right price could be a good option for you. I would do everything in my power to get MSU for free (assuming you can't raise your LSAT enough to make Michigan a realistic and affordable option). What's your uGPA?

When you're talking about regional schools and regional government goals, you should focus heavily on that state's law schools. So you can apply to Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, etc. if you'd like, but realistically I think your best options are Michigan, or MSU/Wayne State for free. If you really want federal government, Michigan is the only school even worth considering in MI, but otherwise you could shoot for other national schools that place better in the federal government (basically USNWR T14 or so).

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby cron1834 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:26 pm

Chicago, Michigan, and Northwestern are portable midwestern schools. The others are basically regional. One of the regional schools could make sense at the right cost/goals, but you'll be fighting an uphill battle if you job-hunt outside of their respective regions.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:32 pm

The schools you mentioned can get you a job in be region. However, really focus on the LSAT because 165+ will be the best outcome. You'd get into ND and the other schools you listed with $$. For now I wouldn't worry about schools as much as doing well on the LSAT. Also, unless you score 165+, plan on retaking in October.

MISaturn2017
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby MISaturn2017 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:38 pm

Thank you for the reply. I know Federal work is quite the far reach, so I'm definitely not counting on it. But maybe someday, if that is realistic.

My uGPA is a 3.83, and I was wondering how important a school's rank and published employment outcomes are relative to its location. Does the fact that I already live in Michigan significantly help/hurt me?

As far as employment in this area of the law: Are there midwestern states that are better/worse than others or does it tend to be a wash?

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:45 pm

MISaturn2017 wrote:Thank you for the reply. I know Federal work is quite the far reach, so I'm definitely not counting on it. But maybe someday, if that is realistic.

My uGPA is a 3.83, and I was wondering how important a school's rank and published employment outcomes are relative to its location. Does the fact that I already live in Michigan significantly help/hurt me?

As far as employment in this area of the law: Are there midwestern states that are better/worse than others or does it tend to be a wash?

I think your plan should be to crack Chicago and then lateral to a preferred state after gaining a couple of years of experience. Also, with that GPA, don't waste it on a LSAT below 165+

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cavalier1138
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:48 am

MISaturn2017 wrote:Thank you for the reply. I know Federal work is quite the far reach, so I'm definitely not counting on it. But maybe someday, if that is realistic.

My uGPA is a 3.83, and I was wondering how important a school's rank and published employment outcomes are relative to its location. Does the fact that I already live in Michigan significantly help/hurt me?

As far as employment in this area of the law: Are there midwestern states that are better/worse than others or does it tend to be a wash?


Federal work isn't just a "reach". It's not happening from these schools. It's pretty rare to see someone move from state to federal government work, and your listed schools just don't set you up for the latter.

A school's rank is less important when looking at regional schools, but its published employment outcomes are extremely important.

As others have said, if you want a genuine shot at fedgov, you need to retake the LSAT and aim for a school that will place you there (or at least aim for a regional powerhouse for free).

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:20 am

...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalents?

To be clear, it's going to be a long shot, for all the usual reasons - there aren't many federal jobs, especially at the entry level, they're very competitive, etc etc. But there's nothing about these schools specifically that *precludes* the OP from federal work. So I agree that the OP can't expect to walk into federal work, and to the extent the comments are meant to say "you should not count on it and have a realistic alternative plan" I get that. But I also think saying that these schools "essentially rule out" federal work or it's "not happening" from these schools (but is from top-ranked schools) is way overstating the case.

And state government is a pretty reasonable outcome from these schools. Again, not something it's necessarily easy to walk into out of graduation, but not something the school will preclude OP from doing.

I also agree the OP should aim for a higher LSAT and more national schools.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:36 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO

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UVA2B
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:45 am

Nebby wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO


But alternatively, how often are 0Ls coming in to TLS wanting to work at the DOE or USPS (not to say these aren't hard to get, but just pointing to less sexy federal government jobs) without explicitly saying so? It's a faulty assumption that someone wanting federal government work means USAO, DOJ, OLC, etc., but it's probably equally faulty to think they want any federal government work without explicitly saying so.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:17 am

UVA2B wrote:
Nebby wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO


But alternatively, how often are 0Ls coming in to TLS wanting to work at the DOE or USPS (not to say these aren't hard to get, but just pointing to less sexy federal government jobs) without explicitly saying so? It's a faulty assumption that someone wanting federal government work means USAO, DOJ, OLC, etc., but it's probably equally faulty to think they want any federal government work without explicitly saying so.

0Ls likely have no idea what they mean when they say federal employment. Kinda like the nerds gunning for "appellate" lit

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:18 am

OP, entry level federal government is few and far between. You should try to attain what you're interested in, but should also have a backup plan. Biglaw would ideally be your back up.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:29 am

Nebby wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO

This is true, but I'm also talking about USAOs. The corollary to the above may be that when when TLSers say "USAO" they really only mean SDNY/EDNY/NDCA/CDCA/NDIL. But there are lots of other USAOs with people from lots of schools (definitely including state flagships).

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:33 am

I know people from the following schools who obtained entry level federal government employment:

Cornell
U of Wisconsin
U of Hawaii

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:34 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO

This is true, but I'm also talking about USAOs. The corollary to the above may be that when when TLSers say "USAO" they really only mean SDNY/EDNY/NDCA/CDCA/NDIL. But there are lots of other USAOs with people from lots of schools (definitely including state flagships).


I would LOVE for a 0L to come in hot saying they want to go to Montana to be a AUSA in D. Mont. TLS wouldn't know what to do with it.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:35 am

Nebby wrote:
UVA2B wrote:But alternatively, how often are 0Ls coming in to TLS wanting to work at the DOE or USPS (not to say these aren't hard to get, but just pointing to less sexy federal government jobs) without explicitly saying so? It's a faulty assumption that someone wanting federal government work means USAO, DOJ, OLC, etc., but it's probably equally faulty to think they want any federal government work without explicitly saying so.

0Ls likely have no idea what they mean when they say federal employment. Kinda like the nerds gunning for "appellate" lit

Yeah, people talk about doing DOJ honors, for instance, and the range of very disparate jobs that fall under that umbrella is pretty large.

That said, I think people are aware of EPA, DOE, HHS, DOL, FDIC, FTC, etc. Another thing I don't think people get, though, is that a lot of jobs with those agencies are in-house-y kinds of jobs, that involve a lot of contracts/purchasing/FOIA/personnel issues, rather than stuff engaging super directly with the substantive mission of the agency (for instance, if you work for the FBI you're not going to be working cases with FBI agents, and you'll do a lot of hiring/firing agents stuff. Admittedly other more agency-related work, so not a knock on the job at all, but still not actually running cases with agents, which I think a lot of people expect to do).

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:40 am

UVA2B wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:...I know plenty of people in federal work from these schools/their equivalent

Same. I think, for some TLSers, the only federal work that exists is OLC and USAO

This is true, but I'm also talking about USAOs. The corollary to the above may be that when when TLSers say "USAO" they really only mean SDNY/EDNY/NDCA/CDCA/NDIL. But there are lots of other USAOs with people from lots of schools (definitely including state flagships).


I would LOVE for a 0L to come in hot saying they want to go to Montana to be a AUSA in D. Mont. TLS wouldn't know what to do with it.

:lol: well, maybe I should have qualified "state flagship" a little.

And to be clear, I probably wouldn't tell someone to go to Montana gunning to be an AUSA in D. Mont. - but mostly because I wouldn't advise anyone to gun for a specific USAO, unless I guess one of the truly huge ones with lots of turnover. Hiring is just too unpredictable/out of an applicant's control; D Mont isn't going to have openings very frequently at all. But I'll bet you there's a decent number of Montana grads working there.

So if someone was gunning for USAO, I'd tell them to gun for any, not a specific one, but that's just me.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby crumb cake » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:43 am

Get a 170+ and apply ED to NU for $150,000, or go to Harvard/CCN.

Don't settle for a 163. Of all the factors, the LSAT is the most important and can essentially determine your career trajectory (or at least open a ton of doors).

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Marvel.DC.23457 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:16 pm

Which law school would you attend from the list below for Big-Law /
Lay prestige, other factors, etc., etc., etc. ? I appreciate responses. Thank you.

- University of Chicago

- Harvard

- University of Pennsylvania

- Stanford

- Columbia

- New York University

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UVA2B
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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:19 pm

Marvel.DC.23457 wrote:Which law school would you attend from the list below for Big-Law /
Lay prestige, other factors, etc., etc., etc. ? I appreciate responses. Thank you.

- University of Chicago

- Harvard

- University of Pennsylvania

- Stanford

- Columbia

- New York University


Any of them.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby haus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:39 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
UVA2B wrote:But alternatively, how often are 0Ls coming in to TLS wanting to work at the DOE or USPS (not to say these aren't hard to get, but just pointing to less sexy federal government jobs) without explicitly saying so? It's a faulty assumption that someone wanting federal government work means USAO, DOJ, OLC, etc., but it's probably equally faulty to think they want any federal government work without explicitly saying so.

0Ls likely have no idea what they mean when they say federal employment. Kinda like the nerds gunning for "appellate" lit

Yeah, people talk about doing DOJ honors, for instance, and the range of very disparate jobs that fall under that umbrella is pretty large.

That said, I think people are aware of EPA, DOE, HHS, DOL, FDIC, FTC, etc. Another thing I don't think people get, though, is that a lot of jobs with those agencies are in-house-y kinds of jobs, that involve a lot of contracts/purchasing/FOIA/personnel issues, rather than stuff engaging super directly with the substantive mission of the agency (for instance, if you work for the FBI you're not going to be working cases with FBI agents, and you'll do a lot of hiring/firing agents stuff. Admittedly other more agency-related work, so not a knock on the job at all, but still not actually running cases with agents, which I think a lot of people expect to do).

I decided to take a look at LinkedIn to see what law school people who are attorneys at the FDIC have listed on their profile (Of the agencies you listed I chose the FDIC because they generally have higher than usual pay for fed jobs...), the first dozen schools I came up with were:

Duke
George Mason
Boston College
Hofstra
Boston University
Tulane
Michigan State
University of Michigan
University of San Diego
Cornell
University of Tulsa
Ohio State

While I doubt these jobs are plentiful, it seems that students from a range of schools do manage to succeed at gaining these jobs.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby Nebby » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:43 pm

haus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
UVA2B wrote:But alternatively, how often are 0Ls coming in to TLS wanting to work at the DOE or USPS (not to say these aren't hard to get, but just pointing to less sexy federal government jobs) without explicitly saying so? It's a faulty assumption that someone wanting federal government work means USAO, DOJ, OLC, etc., but it's probably equally faulty to think they want any federal government work without explicitly saying so.

0Ls likely have no idea what they mean when they say federal employment. Kinda like the nerds gunning for "appellate" lit

Yeah, people talk about doing DOJ honors, for instance, and the range of very disparate jobs that fall under that umbrella is pretty large.

That said, I think people are aware of EPA, DOE, HHS, DOL, FDIC, FTC, etc. Another thing I don't think people get, though, is that a lot of jobs with those agencies are in-house-y kinds of jobs, that involve a lot of contracts/purchasing/FOIA/personnel issues, rather than stuff engaging super directly with the substantive mission of the agency (for instance, if you work for the FBI you're not going to be working cases with FBI agents, and you'll do a lot of hiring/firing agents stuff. Admittedly other more agency-related work, so not a knock on the job at all, but still not actually running cases with agents, which I think a lot of people expect to do).

I decided to take a look at LinkedIn to see what law school people who are attorneys at the FDIC have listed on their profile (Of the agencies you listed I chose the FDIC because they generally have higher than usual pay for fed jobs...), the first dozen schools I came up with were:

Duke
George Mason
Boston College
Hofstra
Boston University
Tulane
Michigan State
University of Michigan
University of San Diego
Cornell
University of Tulsa
Ohio State

While I doubt these jobs are plentiful, it seems that students from a range of schools do manage to succeed at gaining these jobs.

With the caveat that most of those who do are not entry level

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby kellyfrost » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:49 pm

UVA2B wrote:Of the schools you've listed, you can essentially rule out any possibility of working for the federal government, and I hope you're okay with that. On the state level, if you want to work in MI, your best bet is to go to a school in MI so you can intern, extern, and network with the state agencies in MI. That means MSU at the right price could be a good option for you. I would do everything in my power to get MSU for free (assuming you can't raise your LSAT enough to make Michigan a realistic and affordable option). What's your uGPA?

When you're talking about regional schools and regional government goals, you should focus heavily on that state's law schools. So you can apply to Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, etc. if you'd like, but realistically I think your best options are Michigan, or MSU/Wayne State for free. If you really want federal government, Michigan is the only school even worth considering in MI, but otherwise you could shoot for other national schools that place better in the federal government (basically USNWR T14 or so).



I would take the above-bolded statement with a LARGE grain of salt.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:03 pm

kellyfrost wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Of the schools you've listed, you can essentially rule out any possibility of working for the federal government, and I hope you're okay with that. On the state level, if you want to work in MI, your best bet is to go to a school in MI so you can intern, extern, and network with the state agencies in MI. That means MSU at the right price could be a good option for you. I would do everything in my power to get MSU for free (assuming you can't raise your LSAT enough to make Michigan a realistic and affordable option). What's your uGPA?

When you're talking about regional schools and regional government goals, you should focus heavily on that state's law schools. So you can apply to Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, etc. if you'd like, but realistically I think your best options are Michigan, or MSU/Wayne State for free. If you really want federal government, Michigan is the only school even worth considering in MI, but otherwise you could shoot for other national schools that place better in the federal government (basically USNWR T14 or so).



I would take the above-bolded statement with a LARGE grain of salt.


Why?

The discussion previously established that it matters what fed gov job we're talking about, but regardless, fed gov jobs are hard to get from any school immediately following graduation. So is the large grain of salt meant to note that it depends on the job? If so, it's already been covered. If you disagree about how difficult it is to get a fed gov job, fair enough.

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Re: Midwest Law Schools?

Postby kellyfrost » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:12 pm

UVA2B wrote:
kellyfrost wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Of the schools you've listed, you can essentially rule out any possibility of working for the federal government, and I hope you're okay with that. On the state level, if you want to work in MI, your best bet is to go to a school in MI so you can intern, extern, and network with the state agencies in MI. That means MSU at the right price could be a good option for you. I would do everything in my power to get MSU for free (assuming you can't raise your LSAT enough to make Michigan a realistic and affordable option). What's your uGPA?

When you're talking about regional schools and regional government goals, you should focus heavily on that state's law schools. So you can apply to Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, etc. if you'd like, but realistically I think your best options are Michigan, or MSU/Wayne State for free. If you really want federal government, Michigan is the only school even worth considering in MI, but otherwise you could shoot for other national schools that place better in the federal government (basically USNWR T14 or so).



I would take the above-bolded statement with a LARGE grain of salt.


Why?

The discussion previously established that it matters what fed gov job we're talking about, but regardless, fed gov jobs are hard to get from any school immediately following graduation. So is the large grain of salt meant to note that it depends on the job? If so, it's already been covered. If you disagree about how difficult it is to get a fed gov job, fair enough.


Your response clarifies and demonstrates that you agree the above-bolded comment is incorrect but overly broad.




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