Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

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zhenders
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby zhenders » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:14 am

OP doesn't want help so much as she or he wants confirmation. If OP is convinced they're better than/smarter than/more driven than me/you/anyone and that she or he will therefore be working with (and indeed working circles around) me in the future, then great. My favorite people to work with are typically the top-of-their-class folks at lower ranked schools.

Tragically and obviously, OP, regardless what school you go to, it's going to be full of hard working, really smart people as driven or more than you. Further, unlike undergrad, where it's actually possible to simply study enough and get your perfect test score every single time, the curve of law school makes your belief that you'll just out-work your classmates moot: even if you DO outwork them, that's no guarantee (in fact, it's not really even an indicator) that you'll be top 10% or even top 20%.

You're obviously going to one of these schools. Best of luck to you. It's a mistake and there's a really really good chance you will regret it, but I still wish you luck.

Last note: the whole "retake" thing is good advice for more than just getting into a top school, although many people don't realize it. If an individual doesn't have the patience and work ethic necessary to study for and to retake a hard but learnable test like the LSAT for the possibility of not only far more scholarship money, but literally life-altering increases in school options, What are the odds that person has the work ethic to study the HARDEST for every single law school test in their first year?

Studying isn't something that you can just turn a switch on; if you can't bring yourself to do it for the LSAT--and in particular, if you are incapable of studying AND making improvements, indicating you actually know HOW to study, as opposed to just working "hard" and spinning your wheels--don't expect for studying in law school to magically go well for you.

Cheers. Hope to see you in a future SA class, ye bold, brave and oblivious risk-taker!

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Barack O'Drama » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:36 am

zhenders wrote:
Last note: the whole "retake" thing is good advice for more than just getting into a top school, although many people don't realize it. If an individual doesn't have the patience and work ethic necessary to study for and to retake a hard but learnable test like the LSAT for the possibility of not only far more scholarship money, but literally life-altering increases in school options, What are the odds that person has the work ethic to study the HARDEST for every single law school test in their first year?

Studying isn't something that you can just turn a switch on; if you can't bring yourself to do it for the LSAT--and in particular, if you are incapable of studying AND making improvements, indicating you actually know HOW to study, as opposed to just working "hard" and spinning your wheels--don't expect for studying in law school to magically go well for you.



Great point(s).

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Subban_Fan
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Subban_Fan » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:50 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Subban_Fan wrote:The gambler in this instance says he's not retaking the LSAT so that's not an option to this bet. Too many posters in this thread keep harping on it when he's already decided. I think a sgement of people on TLS (not saying you, but this segment definitely exists) can't accept the fact that someone that's achieved less academically (lower LSAT score, worse GPA, worse schools) could end up making a lot more money than them. That someone who keeps making bad bets (or as BigZuck described, "dumb" bets that makes them unfit for law school) could end up somehow winning. Unfortunately, bad beats happen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ3lgmkwG4A).


Oh man, you really don't get it.

Why the fuck would anyone care if the OP manages to succeed? As has constantly been said to the other outliers on the thread: congratulations, but that's the exception that proves the rule. The only thing rubbing people the wrong way is his incredible level of arrogance in assuming that he's already better than 200 strangers who are going to be working for the same goals he is. If he ends up being right, good for him. I'm sure he'll be absolutely insufferable about it, but no one will care that he succeeded by bucking the odds. What matters is when people start using these one-off success stories as reasons to recommend a really dumb course of action.

The OP doesn't want to retake. Largely because he's decided on the path of least resistance (in the short term). But he hasn't articulated any reasons that a retake isn't the absolute, 100% right option in this situation.


I don't know why anyone would care, but you apparently seem to care a lot. :roll: You sound like a jaded ex girlfriend at a bad happy hour.

There's a lot of arrogant and delusional people in law school. It comes with the territory of going to school with 23 year-olds, many of whom probably think they're much smarter than they are and haven't ever worked a real job. Law school in itself is basically a 3 year escape for some college grads with good grades who want to avoid the reality of working at fast food or as a waiter. This is probably just another, don't know why you're crying about it. They'll face reality soon after school ends.

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lavarman84
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Won a lottery because what you do works for you? Or won a lottery because you got lucky?


Both. You need a little luck for just about anything in life, but it was much more the former than the latter. My chances of success were closer to 2% than 8%. I still succeeded. My success was wholly based on merit. Would I advise people to take the path I did? No. In fact, I've advised them not to take the path I did. But I still took the path I did. Of course, there are personal factors in play that made it much less risky for me than it would be for most people. And I didn't go into law school with the goal of winning that particular lottery. I just kind of fell into it.

Look man I'm sure you're a nice enough guy and all. I'm just saying that maybe you believe what you believe and say what you say because you're defective. Maybe the whole "But I've just got a different level of risk tolerance!" thing is a cover up for "I'm just blinded by my own dumb arrogance" (you, Johann, the OP) or "I'm just dumb" (Johann, probably the OP). I think it's something worth considering. I mean that, truly, not just trying to be contrarian.


Maybe I am defective, but defects can sometimes work in your favor.

This is just kind of weird to me because apparently you succeeded through 1) merit 2) "just falling into it" and 3) having personal factors that made it less risky for you. How is that consistent/a basis for advising others (who presumably don't have the personal factors)?


It isn't. That's why I've advised others not to do it the way I did when they've asked. If OP had asked me whether he should sit out a cycle and try for a better school, I'd have advised him to do that. But that's not the question here. That's not what OP is going to do, so I advised him between the choices I was given.

I told the OP his long odds at achieving his goals. I told the OP that he needs to have a backup plan ready if he doesn't achieve those goals. But I don't think going to law school with a full scholarship is a ruinous decision. Hofstra's employment numbers aren't atrocious. They're just poor for OP's goal. OP knows that. OP doesn't care. That's his right. I'm not going to berate him over that decision. As I said earlier, going to Hofstra on a full scholarship isn't going to ruin his life even if he doesn't get biglaw.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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chargers21
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby chargers21 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:40 pm

I think bad ideas deserve to be called out as such, and feelings shouldn't be tiptoed around. If someone is being stupid, then calling them stupid is well within reason.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:41 pm

I'm not questioning your response to the OP, I just found that explanation of how you ended up where you did hard to follow.

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lavarman84
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:50 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not questioning your response to the OP, I just found that explanation of how you ended up where you did hard to follow.


I don't think it's hard to follow, but I'll explain it in more detail if it helps. I didn't go into law school with plans to work in biglaw or for a fed clerkship or anything. I had no real goals. I just went to law school because I thought it was the next step I was supposed to take. I found out in law school that I was really good at law school exams. I've always been bright. I lacked the work ethic when I was younger, but that changed after my first couple years of college. That maturity and work ethic carried over to law school as well. I worked hard, and I was quite good at law school exams. That combination led to success in law school.(along with my arrogance which kept me from getting test anxiety)

Because of my grades, faculty members reached out about fed clerkships. That's how I fell into the long-shot goal. It wasn't a goal I had going into law school (or even knew about at that time).

There were also a couple personal factors that guaranteed I'd be fine no matter what happened in law school.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lavarman84
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:52 pm

chargers21 wrote:I think bad ideas deserve to be called out as such, and feelings shouldn't be tiptoed around. If someone is being stupid, then calling them stupid is well within reason.


I think when you spend 5+ posts and a number of pages "calling out" a bad idea, you're taking things a bit personally. And calling a person stupid because you don't approve of their decision is pretty childish. If you want to try and talk the person out of it, I wish you luck. But insulting and berating them isn't ever going to talk a person out of it. You're doing that solely for your own reasons.

timbs4339
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:57 am

OP: What is your preferred backup career/starting salary if you don't get biglaw? Would you be totally debt free from either school either way, or will you still have some debt from either?

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Johann
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Johann » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:19 pm

Kcaz55 wrote:
Johann wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:Based on the 2016 data, Brooklyn's large firm percentage was around 15%, and Hofstra's was around 8%. Is that 7% gap worth $70,000?

yeah id do brooklyn. youre gonna be on PAYE if you don't make biglaw either way. might as well go to the school that maximizes your biglaw chances if youre biglaw or bust.

id actually go to the school with the highest biglaw percentage regardless of cost based on your goal (biglaw or bust).


These are the kind of responses I was looking for. Thanks guys.

What did you end up doing?

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Johann
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Johann » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:59 pm

BigZuck wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
loslakers wrote:while i do agree that it inherently takes risk to win big, there’s one big difference in law school admissions that separates it from all these other analogies. for law school there’s a magic bullet, retake the lsat, and attend a better law school. if a biglaw job is the lottery would you rather buy the ticket that gives you an 8% (hofstra) chance of winning or over 50% (t13)??


If that 8% lottery is free while the 50+% lottery costs $200,000, give me the 8% lottery. I'm not afraid of challenge.

Right but you admittedly have boundless baseless arrogance

Sorry, I mean you're less risk averse than most


I certainly am arrogant, but it works for me. I managed to win a lottery with worse odds than that.

Won a lottery because what you do works for you? Or won a lottery because you got lucky?

Look man I'm sure you're a nice enough guy and all. I'm just saying that maybe you believe what you believe and say what you say because you're defective. Maybe the whole "But I've just got a different level of risk tolerance!" thing is a cover up for "I'm just blinded by my own dumb arrogance" (you, Johann, the OP) or "I'm just dumb" (Johann, probably the OP). I think it's something worth considering. I mean that, truly, not just trying to be contrarian.

Circling back to the OP- I'm personally a gambler. I appreciate some level of risk. And I'm confident in my own abilities. But you can take those thing too far. Going to Hofstra with big law aspirations is too far. If you can't see how dumb that is then you really shouldn't go to law school. If you're truly comfortable with your likely outcomes and it's at a reasonable cost then knock yourself out. It's not rocket surgery.


its pathetic that the people who claim to be "smartly" analyzing risk just completely ignore the actual debt repayment realities of PAYE. im not risk averse if the numbers support me. with PAYE, there is almost no horrendous/disasttrous/life altering educational investment for someone who wants to do further school. PAYE reduces the downside to at worst -- sort of an inconvenience and you might have to budget 5 uber rides out of your monthly budget.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:13 pm

Not everyone thinks it's merely an inconvenience to have debt hanging over you for 20-25 years, or to have to pay a tax bomb at the end. No one's ignoring that, they just don't have the comfort level with it that you do.

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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby rapmasterg » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:35 pm

Kcaz55 wrote:I'd like some advice on choosing between Hofstra Law and Brooklyn Law. I have a 150k total scholly from Hofstra and 80k total from Brooklyn (both over 3 years). My goal is to wiggle my way into biglaw. I have read all the common responses to posts that have to do with these schools and the pipe dream of somehow getting into biglaw so just ignore this if you're going to give me one of those responses. Maybe I end up transferring after 1l or maybe I kill it and finish top of my class at one of the schools..it doesn't matter what I think can happen but I will be deciding between these two offers with biglaw in mind so I'd love some advice thanks


Retake
Edit
I know you feel like you are smart enough to succeed and have overcome long odds before, but quite frankly after reading the entire thread I have much less faith in your ability to succeed than a normal naive person going into law school.

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Ferrisjso » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:41 pm

Okay it would appear to be Hofstra but whether there's scholly stips is the most important thing here. Good to see the pack of hyenas is still around feasting on 0L dreams.

In a very similar situation to you going to TTT for near free. Did it against the advice of a lot of these people and you know what it's law school the sky didn't fall on itself, as a matter of fact the one who seemed the most insecure about the schools rank was myself. Your law classmates will not be like these people. If your scholly doesn't have stips, go to Hofstra and kill it/enjoy having less if any debt.

People should be ashamed of their conduct and refusal to answer a question. OP's got a really big scholly at Hofstra.

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Sacred Cow
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby Sacred Cow » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:08 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:Okay it would appear to be Hofstra but whether there's scholly stips is the most important thing here. Good to see the pack of hyenas is still around feasting on 0L dreams.

In a very similar situation to you going to TTT for near free. Did it against the advice of a lot of these people and you know what it's law school the sky didn't fall on itself, as a matter of fact the one who seemed the most insecure about the schools rank was myself. Your law classmates will not be like these people. If your scholly doesn't have stips, go to Hofstra and kill it/enjoy having less if any debt.

People should be ashamed of their conduct and refusal to answer a question. OP's got a really big scholly at Hofstra.


That your fellow classmates at a low-ranking school aren't criticizing you for going to the same school they go to might be the stupidest "go to law school" argument I've ever seen, and that's saying a lot on this website.

cavalier1138
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Re: Hofstra (150k) vs Brooklyn (80k)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:23 pm

Sacred Cow wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Okay it would appear to be Hofstra but whether there's scholly stips is the most important thing here. Good to see the pack of hyenas is still around feasting on 0L dreams.

In a very similar situation to you going to TTT for near free. Did it against the advice of a lot of these people and you know what it's law school the sky didn't fall on itself, as a matter of fact the one who seemed the most insecure about the schools rank was myself. Your law classmates will not be like these people. If your scholly doesn't have stips, go to Hofstra and kill it/enjoy having less if any debt.

People should be ashamed of their conduct and refusal to answer a question. OP's got a really big scholly at Hofstra.


That your fellow classmates at a low-ranking school aren't criticizing you for going to the same school they go to might be the stupidest "go to law school" argument I've ever seen, and that's saying a lot on this website.


I'm excited for him to find out what employers say...




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