Is GW at $$ worth it?

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radon5
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Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:19 pm

Recently heard that I could go to GW this fall for 40K each year for 3 years (120K total). I'm pretty debt averse and was ready to go to another lower ranked school with a higher a holly but am considering whether I should pop for GW. I'm maxed out on my ability to score any higher on the LSAT and don't intend to reapply next cycle.

I'm hoping to end up in a major city ideally Chicago but have considered Philadelphia, Denver and possibly New York, random I know. I'm not big law or bust but would shoot to get there if I could. If not big law, I'd ideally be doing mid law work in a major city or some type of prosecution. Would GW be a good choice for those goals? And at that price?

cavalier1138
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:23 pm

GW will not give you the geographic flexibility you want. What's the lower ranked school you're considering?

(FYI: "midlaw" is just as hard to get as biglaw, but local prosecution is doable from any regional school.)

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:26 pm

GW on a $120k discount is a decidedly meh option for your goals, especially since those goals are outside DC. GW gives you a shot at biglaw (generously ~40% shot), mid law in a major city is impossible to accurately gauge because the positions available are way less and way more unpredictable in hiring and compensation, and it really depends what you mean by wanting to be a prosecutor. If you're good with a non-competitive DA gig (and not in a major city because those are pretty darn competitive as well), then it's not like GW won't get you to your goals. But you have a very realistic shot of not getting paid work that will service the still ~$180k you'll need to come up with that isn't based on tuition discount.

I would seriously reconsider going into that much debt for an option like GW, especially if your goals are outside of DC.

radon5
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:31 pm

UVA2B wrote:GW on a $120k discount is a decidedly meh option for your goals, especially since those goals are outside DC. GW gives you a shot at biglaw (generously ~40% shot), mid law in a major city is impossible to accurately gauge because the positions available are way less and way more unpredictable in hiring and compensation, and it really depends what you mean by wanting to be a prosecutor. If you're good with a non-competitive DA gig (and not in a major city because those are pretty darn competitive as well), then it's not like GW won't get you to your goals. But you have a very realistic shot of not getting paid work that will service the still ~$180k you'll need to come up with that isn't based on tuition discount.

I would seriously reconsider going into that much debt for an option like GW, especially if your goals are outside of DC.


Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.

cavalier1138
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:35 pm

radon5 wrote:Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


Does that mean you're thinking of being a prosecutor as a road to bigger and better things? If so, what are those things?

And I highly doubt that prosecution offices in major metropolitan areas like DC, Philly, and NY are "non-competitive".

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:37 pm

radon5 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:GW on a $120k discount is a decidedly meh option for your goals, especially since those goals are outside DC. GW gives you a shot at biglaw (generously ~40% shot), mid law in a major city is impossible to accurately gauge because the positions available are way less and way more unpredictable in hiring and compensation, and it really depends what you mean by wanting to be a prosecutor. If you're good with a non-competitive DA gig (and not in a major city because those are pretty darn competitive as well), then it's not like GW won't get you to your goals. But you have a very realistic shot of not getting paid work that will service the still ~$180k you'll need to come up with that isn't based on tuition discount.

I would seriously reconsider going into that much debt for an option like GW, especially if your goals are outside of DC.


Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


DC actual won't allow you to be a non-competitive DA because everything in DC is federal. So if you were gunning for a DA job in the suburbs of DC (either MD or VA), then you could possibly gun hard from day one, do all the internships, externships, etc. at a DA office that might presumably hire you out of GW. This won't really work for Philly or NYC though. And all of the metropolitan areas are generally more competitive for those types of jobs, but with the right amount of work ethic and a broad definition of being "in a major city," it's possible. But now you're talking about being in $180k debt, making $50k/year, and praying that PSLF lives to fight another day. That's pretty risky financially, but only you can decide whether that's a route you'd be comfortable going down (I can tell you I absolutely wouldn't want to do it, but others could disagree).

What is the regional you were looking to attend before the GW discount offer?

radon5
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:40 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
radon5 wrote:Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


Does that mean you're thinking of being a prosecutor as a road to bigger and better things? If so, what are those things?

And I highly doubt that prosecution offices in major metropolitan areas like DC, Philly, and NY are "non-competitive".


I was thinking a prosecutor route could give good experience to move into a law firm as a litigator eventually. If I'd have to get that preliminary experience while I'm living and working outside of major cities, that'd be fine with me. But I'm also thinking if things work out and I do well enough, GW might set me up for big law in a city on the east coast. Maybe I'm crazy

cavalier1138
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:43 pm

radon5 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
radon5 wrote:Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


Does that mean you're thinking of being a prosecutor as a road to bigger and better things? If so, what are those things?

And I highly doubt that prosecution offices in major metropolitan areas like DC, Philly, and NY are "non-competitive".


I was thinking a prosecutor route could give good experience to move into a law firm as a litigator eventually. If I'd have to get that preliminary experience while I'm living and working outside of major cities, that'd be fine with me. But I'm also thinking if things work out and I do well enough, GW might set me up for big law in a city on the east coast. Maybe I'm crazy


If your "move into a law firm" is referring to a biglaw firm, that would be a very rare outcome.

It sounds like your ultimate goal is, in fact, biglaw-or-bust, and that's just not feasible with your current options.

radon5
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:43 pm

UVA2B wrote:
radon5 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:GW on a $120k discount is a decidedly meh option for your goals, especially since those goals are outside DC. GW gives you a shot at biglaw (generously ~40% shot), mid law in a major city is impossible to accurately gauge because the positions available are way less and way more unpredictable in hiring and compensation, and it really depends what you mean by wanting to be a prosecutor. If you're good with a non-competitive DA gig (and not in a major city because those are pretty darn competitive as well), then it's not like GW won't get you to your goals. But you have a very realistic shot of not getting paid work that will service the still ~$180k you'll need to come up with that isn't based on tuition discount.

I would seriously reconsider going into that much debt for an option like GW, especially if your goals are outside of DC.


Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


DC actual won't allow you to be a non-competitive DA because everything in DC is federal. So if you were gunning for a DA job in the suburbs of DC (either MD or VA), then you could possibly gun hard from day one, do all the internships, externships, etc. at a DA office that might presumably hire you out of GW. This won't really work for Philly or NYC though. And all of the metropolitan areas are generally more competitive for those types of jobs, but with the right amount of work ethic and a broad definition of being "in a major city," it's possible. But now you're talking about being in $180k debt, making $50k/year, and praying that PSLF lives to fight another day. That's pretty risky financially, but only you can decide whether that's a route you'd be comfortable going down (I can tell you I absolutely wouldn't want to do it, but others could disagree).

What is the regional you were looking to attend before the GW discount offer?


Illinois. And where are you getting the 180K? I'm seeing it come out closer to 100-120...still not small

radon5
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
radon5 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
radon5 wrote:Thank you. Would it make a difference if I was okay being limited to just the east coast? Like DC, Philly, NY? I was thinking prosecutor like a non competitive route where I would get good experience.


Does that mean you're thinking of being a prosecutor as a road to bigger and better things? If so, what are those things?

And I highly doubt that prosecution offices in major metropolitan areas like DC, Philly, and NY are "non-competitive".


I was thinking a prosecutor route could give good experience to move into a law firm as a litigator eventually. If I'd have to get that preliminary experience while I'm living and working outside of major cities, that'd be fine with me. But I'm also thinking if things work out and I do well enough, GW might set me up for big law in a city on the east coast. Maybe I'm crazy


If your "move into a law firm" is referring to a biglaw firm, that would be a very rare outcome.

It sounds like your ultimate goal is, in fact, biglaw-or-bust, and that's just not feasible with your current options.


I'm pretty sure there are firms out there that aren't "big law" that hire former prosecutors to do litigation work. Am I wrong about that?

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:46 pm

radon5 wrote:Illinois. And where are you getting the 180K? I'm seeing it come out closer to 100-120...still not small


https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/

You have to remember COL, origination fees, interest rate that accrues as soon as loans are disbursed, and tuition raises that are all but guaranteed.

radon5
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Re: Is GW at 40K/year worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:51 pm

UVA2B wrote:
radon5 wrote:Illinois. And where are you getting the 180K? I'm seeing it come out closer to 100-120...still not small


https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/

You have to remember COL, origination fees, interest rate that accrues as soon as loans are disbursed, and tuition raises that are all but guaranteed.


Got it. Thank you

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:04 pm

I think I'm starting to see your angle here, and tbh I don't think it's a good one. If you go to GW and get a desirable biglaw job, great, you win. If you can't get that, a merely decently high paying job in a midlaw firm would be ok, so this decision is looking even safer. But I know it's competitive, so I'd be ok starting out in a DA job in a big city or its suburbs, which they're tell me is easier to get if I work hard. I can cut my teeth there until I can lateral into a higher paying firm job. This GW $120k discount is looking juicier and juicier!

Forgive the bit of above snark, but you seem to pretty clearly want to be in a firm that pays well. GW has the potential to get you into that job, but has a much better chance of never putting you in one. A $180k gamble on it is just very risky. If you're comfortable with that risk, go ahead.

Now let's talk about this Illinois offer. How much are you getting from them?

radon5
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:17 pm

UVA2B wrote:I think I'm starting to see your angle here, and tbh I don't think it's a good one. If you go to GW and get a desirable biglaw job, great, you win. If you can't get that, a merely decently high paying job in a midlaw firm would be ok, so this decision is looking even safer. But I know it's competitive, so I'd be ok starting out in a DA job in a big city or its suburbs, which they're tell me is easier to get if I work hard. I can cut my teeth there until I can lateral into a higher paying firm job. This GW $120k discount is looking juicier and juicier!

Forgive the bit of above snark, but you seem to pretty clearly want to be in a firm that pays well. GW has the potential to get you into that job, but has a much better chance of never putting you in one. A $180k gamble on it is just very risky. If you're comfortable with that risk, go ahead.

Now let's talk about this Illinois offer. How much are you getting from them?


Haha thank you. I have a full scholly there

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:21 pm

radon5 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:I think I'm starting to see your angle here, and tbh I don't think it's a good one. If you go to GW and get a desirable biglaw job, great, you win. If you can't get that, a merely decently high paying job in a midlaw firm would be ok, so this decision is looking even safer. But I know it's competitive, so I'd be ok starting out in a DA job in a big city or its suburbs, which they're tell me is easier to get if I work hard. I can cut my teeth there until I can lateral into a higher paying firm job. This GW $120k discount is looking juicier and juicier!

Forgive the bit of above snark, but you seem to pretty clearly want to be in a firm that pays well. GW has the potential to get you into that job, but has a much better chance of never putting you in one. A $180k gamble on it is just very risky. If you're comfortable with that risk, go ahead.

Now let's talk about this Illinois offer. How much are you getting from them?


Haha thank you. I have a full scholly there

A full ride at UIUC and wanting Chicago is a decidedly better choice than going to GW on $120k discount. Stop considering GW and either register for a retake or deposit at UIUC with the same caveats as GW about likelihood of getting a well-paying firm job.

radon5
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:35 pm

Just to be clear, when you're talking about a well-paying firm job, are you talking right out of school or ever in my life? If I go to Illinois is it unlikely I'll ever hit say 150K a year?

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UVA2B
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:40 pm

radon5 wrote:Just to be clear, when you're talking about a well-paying firm job, are you talking right out of school or ever in my life? If I go to Illinois is it unlikely I'll ever hit say 150K a year?


it's not never in your life, and it's not guaranteed you won't reach any particular limit. You might get Biglaw in Chicago, make $160k out of the gate that goes up and you'll ideally be making six figures the rest of your life. You might end up at a smaller firm where your pay starts more modestly, but goes up where one day you're making at/near six figures. DA jobs do increase pay marginally, but it's tougher to break into six figure types of jobs.

When you're looking out past the first job it's even harder to predict what your career arc will be. Your pay, assuming you're successful as an attorney, will go up. By how much is up for debate, and can't really be predicted outside of anecdotal evidence and generic surveys that show the average comp. for attorneys in a given market. I don't want to be overly gloomy about your prospects out of Illinois, because so long as you get a job as an attorney, you can improve whatever your starting salary is with the right amount of luck, work ethic, and legal skill. But there isn't as much predictive value in looking at that as a 0L, and projecting what your personal eventual salary will be is shooting in the dark.

radon5
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby radon5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:51 pm

UVA2B wrote:
radon5 wrote:Just to be clear, when you're talking about a well-paying firm job, are you talking right out of school or ever in my life? If I go to Illinois is it unlikely I'll ever hit say 150K a year?


it's not never in your life, and it's not guaranteed you won't reach any particular limit. You might get Biglaw in Chicago, make $160k out of the gate that goes up and you'll ideally be making six figures the rest of your life. You might end up at a smaller firm where your pay starts more modestly, but goes up where one day you're making at/near six figures. DA jobs do increase pay marginally, but it's tougher to break into six figure types of jobs.

When you're looking out past the first job it's even harder to predict what your career arc will be. Your pay, assuming you're successful as an attorney, will go up. By how much is up for debate, and can't really be predicted outside of anecdotal evidence and generic surveys that show the average comp. for attorneys in a given market. I don't want to be overly gloomy about your prospects out of Illinois, because so long as you get a job as an attorney, you can improve whatever your starting salary is with the right amount of luck, work ethic, and legal skill. But there isn't as much predictive value in looking at that as a 0L, and projecting what your personal eventual salary will be is shooting in the dark.


Thank you. That's seems good. I feel confident

cavalier1138
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:12 pm

radon5 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
radon5 wrote:Just to be clear, when you're talking about a well-paying firm job, are you talking right out of school or ever in my life? If I go to Illinois is it unlikely I'll ever hit say 150K a year?


it's not never in your life, and it's not guaranteed you won't reach any particular limit. You might get Biglaw in Chicago, make $160k out of the gate that goes up and you'll ideally be making six figures the rest of your life. You might end up at a smaller firm where your pay starts more modestly, but goes up where one day you're making at/near six figures. DA jobs do increase pay marginally, but it's tougher to break into six figure types of jobs.

When you're looking out past the first job it's even harder to predict what your career arc will be. Your pay, assuming you're successful as an attorney, will go up. By how much is up for debate, and can't really be predicted outside of anecdotal evidence and generic surveys that show the average comp. for attorneys in a given market. I don't want to be overly gloomy about your prospects out of Illinois, because so long as you get a job as an attorney, you can improve whatever your starting salary is with the right amount of luck, work ethic, and legal skill. But there isn't as much predictive value in looking at that as a 0L, and projecting what your personal eventual salary will be is shooting in the dark.


Thank you. That's seems good. I feel confident


Just out of curiosity, what part of that made you feel confident? And what are you confident that you'll be able to do?

By all means, go to law school for free. It's not a terrible outcome. But you really seem to have goals that are totally discordant with the schools you're considering.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:48 pm

No it's not worth it. Your desire to be in Chicago over DC AND for a much cheaper price makes Illinois a slam dunk here assuming you don't want to sit out so that you can be eligible for the LSAT again.

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existentialcrisis
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby existentialcrisis » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:26 pm

If you want biglaw, then the real answer is retake. But, between these 2 schools, Illinois with the full ride is obviously the right answer. Even without looking at cost, I don't even think GW gives you a better chance at landing biglaw.

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Slippin' Jimmy
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:31 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:No it's not worth it. Your desire to be in Chicago over DC AND for a much cheaper price makes Illinois a slam dunk here assuming you don't want to sit out so that you can be eligible for the LSAT again.

OP is already eligible, LSAC got rid of the 3 takes policy. They could take in September if they want to.

latetothis
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby latetothis » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:40 pm

.
Last edited by latetothis on Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:42 pm

Not-OP-who-doesn't-want-to-make-a-new-thread: What does "PI in DC" entail for you?

latetothis
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Re: Is GW at $$ worth it?

Postby latetothis » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:51 pm

.
Last edited by latetothis on Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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