IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

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BoilerByBirth
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IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby BoilerByBirth » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:52 am

Hey guys, so here's my situation:

I'm headed into my last semester of studying biomedical engineering at Purdue University and will be graduating in December. Collectively, through internships and co-ops I have about 18 months of industry work experience in engineering roles at two pharmaceutical companies. I have a 3.56 GPA and my practice LSAT scores have been between 160-165 so far (I'm taking it in September). I'm a resident of Indiana, but my fiancé lives in Cincinnati and has a very good job there that he's locked into for at least the next two years. I'm trying to decide between IU Bloomington, Ohio State and UCinci. IU and OSU are both tier 1 schools and pretty interchangeable in terms of rankings, whereas UC is solidly tier 2, but is in my ideal location for school as well as likely my target location for landing a job post law school.

How important is it to go to a tier 1 school? Would I be better off going to a less highly ranked school but aiming to stay at or near the top of my class? Or is caliber of your peers and school important for getting a solid, valuable law education? I've heard it's easier to find jobs in cinci as a UC graduate than an OSU grad anyway - is there truth in this?

Disclaimer: despite my STEM background I don't want to do patent law. I'm more interested in criminal law or public interest law. Thoughts, advice, and discussion are much appreciated! :)

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UVA2B
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:05 am

Where do you want to practice following graduation? And when you say criminal law, do you mean local ADA or PD type of criminal law, or more federal/AUSA? And what kind of public interest law do you mean?

This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.

silenttimer
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby silenttimer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:32 am

UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.

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UVA2B
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:37 am

silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Ok, let me rephrase. It's not wisely answerable. UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option. My "knee-jerk" reaction is to get all the necessary info about what the OP wants to do and where they want to do it.

It might not be directly what the OP asked, but I want to answer a question that is better for OP than the one they asked, which requires a lot more information. Going to UC to become a federal defender or an AUSA/DOJ long-term would be decidedly stupid. Until there is more information, flippantly deciding they mean being an ADA/PD and wanting to be in Cincy long-term (when they already stated the fiancé only has a job in Cincy for the next two years for sure) is just incomplete. I'm not sure why asking for more information before offering advice is in any way "knee-jerk."

cavalier1138
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:56 am

silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Amazing! All regional schools now offer equal opportunities for all employment in the region, even if that employment is in a highly competitive field which wouldn't hire much from that regional school. It's all so clear!

As pointed out, going to one of these schools for regional biglaw or even with the endgame of a position in a regional federal office might not be the best idea. And since the OP has no LSAT and hasn't defined any clear goals, giving any kind of "definitive" answer is both ridiculous and irresponsible.

BoilerByBirth
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby BoilerByBirth » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:37 am

UVA2B wrote:
silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Ok, let me rephrase. It's not wisely answerable. UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option. My "knee-jerk" reaction is to get all the necessary info about what the OP wants to do and where they want to do it.

It might not be directly what the OP asked, but I want to answer a question that is better for OP than the one they asked, which requires a lot more information. Going to UC to become a federal defender or an AUSA/DOJ long-term would be decidedly stupid. Until there is more information, flippantly deciding they mean being an ADA/PD and wanting to be in Cincy long-term (when they already stated the fiancé only has a job in Cincy for the next two years for sure) is just incomplete. I'm not sure why asking for more information before offering advice is in any way "knee-jerk."


You're right, let me fill in some more details. As of right now, I'm interested in local ADA/PD jobs, especially right out of law school. Eventually I might like to end up working at a private practice firm, but I like the idea of having real courtroom experience early in my career. If I went the (non-PD) public interest route, I'm interested in legal aid society work; I'm particularly interested in medical-legal partnerships, but I'm not sure how practical of a "career goal" that is. Honestly though, I am open to a lot of different areas of practice and having solid job availability prospects post graduation is important to me. I could be very happy working in the private sector at a mid to large size firm as well. Are those jobs readily available to new UC grads? Most likely I will be looking for a job in Cincinnati. To clarify, my fiancé will still have his job with GE Aviation 2 years from now - the "2 year constraint" is that GE is funding his master's for the next two years while he's working, so it wouldn't be practical for him to look for a different job/relocate within that timeframe. I know I don't have an official LSAT yet, but I've taken several timed practice exams so I do feel like I at least have an idea of the range I can expect to land in. Maybe you could comment on that as well though. Should I expect a consistent score drop going from practice exams to the real thing?

Can you expand on what you meant by "UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option"?

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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:48 am

BoilerByBirth wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Ok, let me rephrase. It's not wisely answerable. UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option. My "knee-jerk" reaction is to get all the necessary info about what the OP wants to do and where they want to do it.

It might not be directly what the OP asked, but I want to answer a question that is better for OP than the one they asked, which requires a lot more information. Going to UC to become a federal defender or an AUSA/DOJ long-term would be decidedly stupid. Until there is more information, flippantly deciding they mean being an ADA/PD and wanting to be in Cincy long-term (when they already stated the fiancé only has a job in Cincy for the next two years for sure) is just incomplete. I'm not sure why asking for more information before offering advice is in any way "knee-jerk."


You're right, let me fill in some more details. As of right now, I'm interested in local ADA/PD jobs, especially right out of law school. Eventually I might like to end up working at a private practice firm, but I like the idea of having real courtroom experience early in my career. If I went the (non-PD) public interest route, I'm interested in legal aid society work; I'm particularly interested in medical-legal partnerships, but I'm not sure how practical of a "career goal" that is. Honestly though, I am open to a lot of different areas of practice and having solid job availability prospects post graduation is important to me. I could be very happy working in the private sector at a mid to large size firm as well. Are those jobs readily available to new UC grads? Most likely I will be looking for a job in Cincinnati. To clarify, my fiancé will still have his job with GE Aviation 2 years from now - the "2 year constraint" is that GE is funding his master's for the next two years while he's working, so it wouldn't be practical for him to look for a different job/relocate within that timeframe. I know I don't have an official LSAT yet, but I've taken several timed practice exams so I do feel like I at least have an idea of the range I can expect to land in. Maybe you could comment on that as well though. Should I expect a consistent score drop going from practice exams to the real thing?

Can you expand on what you meant by "UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option"?


This is much more helpful in understanding your situation. Thanks for amplifying the info. What I meant by that is UC puts you in a good spot to end up in Ohio in certain kinds of jobs, but it's not a good option if your goals were to only get work at a big or medium sized firm, because a decided minority of graduates from UC end up doing that. Or if your ultimate goal was go to school before ending up in Chicago or something like that doing any type of work, it would be a bad option because you're very likely going to fail at achieving your goal.

Considering your goals and comfort with ending up in Ohio long-term, and assuming you end up with an LSAT in that range, your best bets will be OSU and UC, and maybe a place like IUB or UIUC for scholarship negotiations. If you get higher than that score, you could consider applying to some higher-ranked schools for scholarship negotiation purposes (think T13 basically) as well, and then you'll have good options at a reasonable price ideally.

Your goals are sufficiently modest where going to UC for free could be your best option, particularly if fiancé will be in the area for theoretically the long-term. Go ahead and check out the link below regarding the comparison of outcomes at OSU and UC, just to know what their placement power is like.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/osu/cincinnati/

BoilerByBirth
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby BoilerByBirth » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:15 am

UVA2B wrote:
BoilerByBirth wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Ok, let me rephrase. It's not wisely answerable. UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option. My "knee-jerk" reaction is to get all the necessary info about what the OP wants to do and where they want to do it.

It might not be directly what the OP asked, but I want to answer a question that is better for OP than the one they asked, which requires a lot more information. Going to UC to become a federal defender or an AUSA/DOJ long-term would be decidedly stupid. Until there is more information, flippantly deciding they mean being an ADA/PD and wanting to be in Cincy long-term (when they already stated the fiancé only has a job in Cincy for the next two years for sure) is just incomplete. I'm not sure why asking for more information before offering advice is in any way "knee-jerk."


You're right, let me fill in some more details. As of right now, I'm interested in local ADA/PD jobs, especially right out of law school. Eventually I might like to end up working at a private practice firm, but I like the idea of having real courtroom experience early in my career. If I went the (non-PD) public interest route, I'm interested in legal aid society work; I'm particularly interested in medical-legal partnerships, but I'm not sure how practical of a "career goal" that is. Honestly though, I am open to a lot of different areas of practice and having solid job availability prospects post graduation is important to me. I could be very happy working in the private sector at a mid to large size firm as well. Are those jobs readily available to new UC grads? Most likely I will be looking for a job in Cincinnati. To clarify, my fiancé will still have his job with GE Aviation 2 years from now - the "2 year constraint" is that GE is funding his master's for the next two years while he's working, so it wouldn't be practical for him to look for a different job/relocate within that timeframe. I know I don't have an official LSAT yet, but I've taken several timed practice exams so I do feel like I at least have an idea of the range I can expect to land in. Maybe you could comment on that as well though. Should I expect a consistent score drop going from practice exams to the real thing?

Can you expand on what you meant by "UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option"?


This is much more helpful in understanding your situation. Thanks for amplifying the info. What I meant by that is UC puts you in a good spot to end up in Ohio in certain kinds of jobs, but it's not a good option if your goals were to only get work at a big or medium sized firm, because a decided minority of graduates from UC end up doing that. Or if your ultimate goal was go to school before ending up in Chicago or something like that doing any type of work, it would be a bad option because you're very likely going to fail at achieving your goal.

Considering your goals and comfort with ending up in Ohio long-term, and assuming you end up with an LSAT in that range, your best bets will be OSU and UC, and maybe a place like IUB or UIUC for scholarship negotiations. If you get higher than that score, you could consider applying to some higher-ranked schools for scholarship negotiation purposes (think T13 basically) as well, and then you'll have good options at a reasonable price ideally.

Your goals are sufficiently modest where going to UC for free could be your best option, particularly if fiancé will be in the area for theoretically the long-term. Go ahead and check out the link below regarding the comparison of outcomes at OSU and UC, just to know what their placement power is like.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/osu/cincinnati/


Thank you, that's very helpful! Follow up question: IYO, how important is the "tier 1/2" distinction? Is it actually influential as far as job prospects go or are "prestige" benchmarks beyond "T13/14 or bust" more or less lines in the sand? Once you move outside of T13 does geographical location/regional alumni presence hold more weight than ranking (assuming you're still within the T100 - if that's even a thing...)? Is it better to be top of your class at a mediocre school or middle of the pack at a decent-but-not-T13-school? Sorry for all the hypotheticals, I don't want to waste anybody's time, but this forum seems like at least a semi-legitimate outlet for speculative questions like this haha

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UVA2B
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Re: IU Maurer vs. Ohio State Moritz vs. University of Cincinnati

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:25 am

BoilerByBirth wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
BoilerByBirth wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
silenttimer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:This is all hypothetical without having an LSAT and actual options with attendant price tags attached. As such, it's not in the least bit answerable.


Of course it is answerable. OP's question has nothing to do with your knee-jerk reaction about these types of thread. OP, all else being equal, if you want to practice in Cincinnati, then UC would probably be better for you to make the local connections that you will need to practice criminal law there. Your next best option is probably Ohio State, as it is well respected in Ohio.

Good luck.


Ok, let me rephrase. It's not wisely answerable. UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option. My "knee-jerk" reaction is to get all the necessary info about what the OP wants to do and where they want to do it.

It might not be directly what the OP asked, but I want to answer a question that is better for OP than the one they asked, which requires a lot more information. Going to UC to become a federal defender or an AUSA/DOJ long-term would be decidedly stupid. Until there is more information, flippantly deciding they mean being an ADA/PD and wanting to be in Cincy long-term (when they already stated the fiancé only has a job in Cincy for the next two years for sure) is just incomplete. I'm not sure why asking for more information before offering advice is in any way "knee-jerk."


You're right, let me fill in some more details. As of right now, I'm interested in local ADA/PD jobs, especially right out of law school. Eventually I might like to end up working at a private practice firm, but I like the idea of having real courtroom experience early in my career. If I went the (non-PD) public interest route, I'm interested in legal aid society work; I'm particularly interested in medical-legal partnerships, but I'm not sure how practical of a "career goal" that is. Honestly though, I am open to a lot of different areas of practice and having solid job availability prospects post graduation is important to me. I could be very happy working in the private sector at a mid to large size firm as well. Are those jobs readily available to new UC grads? Most likely I will be looking for a job in Cincinnati. To clarify, my fiancé will still have his job with GE Aviation 2 years from now - the "2 year constraint" is that GE is funding his master's for the next two years while he's working, so it wouldn't be practical for him to look for a different job/relocate within that timeframe. I know I don't have an official LSAT yet, but I've taken several timed practice exams so I do feel like I at least have an idea of the range I can expect to land in. Maybe you could comment on that as well though. Should I expect a consistent score drop going from practice exams to the real thing?

Can you expand on what you meant by "UC is the best option for being in Cincy long-term, but that doesn't make a good option"?


This is much more helpful in understanding your situation. Thanks for amplifying the info. What I meant by that is UC puts you in a good spot to end up in Ohio in certain kinds of jobs, but it's not a good option if your goals were to only get work at a big or medium sized firm, because a decided minority of graduates from UC end up doing that. Or if your ultimate goal was go to school before ending up in Chicago or something like that doing any type of work, it would be a bad option because you're very likely going to fail at achieving your goal.

Considering your goals and comfort with ending up in Ohio long-term, and assuming you end up with an LSAT in that range, your best bets will be OSU and UC, and maybe a place like IUB or UIUC for scholarship negotiations. If you get higher than that score, you could consider applying to some higher-ranked schools for scholarship negotiation purposes (think T13 basically) as well, and then you'll have good options at a reasonable price ideally.

Your goals are sufficiently modest where going to UC for free could be your best option, particularly if fiancé will be in the area for theoretically the long-term. Go ahead and check out the link below regarding the comparison of outcomes at OSU and UC, just to know what their placement power is like.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/osu/cincinnati/


Thank you, that's very helpful! Follow up question: IYO, how important is the "tier 1/2" distinction? Is it actually influential as far as job prospects go or are "prestige" benchmarks beyond "T13/14 or bust" more or less lines in the sand? Once you move outside of T13 does geographical location/regional alumni presence hold more weight than ranking (assuming you're still within the T100 - if that's even a thing...)? Is it better to be top of your class at a mediocre school or middle of the pack at a decent-but-not-T13-school? Sorry for all the hypotheticals, I don't want to waste anybody's time, but this forum seems like at least a semi-legitimate outlet for speculative questions like this haha


It's slightly more nuanced than strictly drawing lines in sand. OSU has a stronger alumni network in the state of OH generally than UC does, and OSU has limited placement outside of the state of OH, whereas UC's placement outside OH is limited enough to say it's basically non-existent. So in a vacuum, OSU is the better school and you should attend OSU at equal costs and maybe even slightly more expensive. But prestige really only substantially matters in certain types of employment, namely larger private firms, federal judicial clerkships, federal government jobs, and some more competitive public interest jobs like the ACLU, Bronx Defenders, and things like that. Otherwise it can be sufficiently moot for the average graduate, and the name of the game for either OSU or UC is getting good grades and networking in the types of jobs you want. So if you want to do criminal prosecution or public defender work in Cincinnati, going to UC (particularly if it's cheaper than OSU) and networking, interning, externing, and just generally showing a commitment to that kind of work should be your goal/game plan. So if you're gunning for a medium sized or large law firm, or you think your mind will change in law school where you'll want to go to one of these more prestige-driven jobs, don't go to UC (or really OSU since their placement in those kinds of jobs is relatively weak as well). But with your goals, staying with fiancé who can defray COL, networking and hustling, and doing well at UC is probably your best call. But you should still apply to a few other schools so you are in a position to negotiate scholarships when decision time comes.

ETA: I didn't address your assumption about being top of your class at UC vs. middle of the pack at OSU, but you should relieve yourself of this mindset now. There is at best a weak correlation between uGPA/LSAT and law school performance. I feel like I've said this a thousand times, but you should go into basically any school assuming you'll be right around the median GPA, because the forced curve and nature of law school exams makes that the statistically most likely outcome.




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