Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

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rzzza
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rzzza » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:13 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:I'm curious as to why you can't take a gap year and retake the LSAT? How old are you?


I'm almost 30 already. I took the LSAT twice, first time I got a 154, 2nd time I got a 158. I never even pre-tested above a 160. I think re-taking is pointless. Safe to say I'm not making it to the Ivy League. I think BigLaw is out for me

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guybourdin
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby guybourdin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:14 pm

How is it free-free: do you have some family in the area that will cover cost of living?

If you would be happy starting out at 40-45k/yr (not 50-60k), having it take 10 years to get up to maybe 80-85k, and never working in Cook County, idk, its not the worst option. I think Loyola at 150k in debt is a much worse option. I still think its a bad option. Are you realistic in your goals? Is what I've described here a life you think you'd be happy with? a Rockford or Collar County career?

I am not going to encourage you just because of some anecdata I could provide about TTTT grads I know who seem to be doing okay (okay-- low/no debt, seemingly stable but pretty low paying job, work in suburbs or smaller cities). This question might get flamed for not mattering, but I'll say the one thing I've noticed about the TTT(T) grads I know who have landed on their feet is that they are all probably incredible networkers. Are you?

ETA: I don't think going to Northern is a good idea.

IExistedOnceBefore
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:16 pm

rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:I'm curious as to why you can't take a gap year and retake the LSAT? How old are you?


I'm almost 30 already. I took the LSAT twice, first time I got a 154, 2nd time I got a 158. I never even pre-tested above a 160. I think re-taking is pointless. Safe to say I'm not making it to the Ivy League. I think BigLaw is out for me

Did you prepare for it? Those aren't bad scores and you're not to old to take another year. People at TLS will encourage smart choices if BigLaw isn't your goal, but the school you're looking at will likely not get you a legal job at all. It's just not a smart choice. We aren't "big law or bust" as a lot of people seem to make us out to be here, but we like to see everyone make smart financial decisions and be employed post law school. Going to a smaller Chicago school or UIUC with the goal of working in a mid or small firm or public interest with a 75% scholarship could arguably be a good decision.

Going to a law school that people literally forget exists, with ambiguous goals besides "I want to be an attorney." Is a poor decision and one that will likely end poorly. NIU is in an even worse spot because it's not in Chicago so networking and hustling is even harder than the other lower ranked schools.

rzzza
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rzzza » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:23 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:
rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:I'm curious as to why you can't take a gap year and retake the LSAT? How old are you?


I'm almost 30 already. I took the LSAT twice, first time I got a 154, 2nd time I got a 158. I never even pre-tested above a 160. I think re-taking is pointless. Safe to say I'm not making it to the Ivy League. I think BigLaw is out for me

Did you prepare for it? Those aren't bad scores and you're not to old to take another year. People at TLS will encourage smart choices if BigLaw isn't your goal, but the school you're looking at will likely not get you a legal job at all. It's just not a smart choice. We aren't "big law or bust" as a lot of people seem to make us out to be here, but we like to see everyone make smart financial decisions and be employed post law school. Going to a smaller Chicago school or UIUC with the goal of working in a mid or small firm or public interest with a 75% scholarship could arguably be a good decision.

Going to a law school that people literally forget exists, with ambiguous goals besides "I want to be an attorney." Is a poor decision and one that will likely end poorly. NIU is in an even worse spot because it's not in Chicago so networking and hustling is even harder than the other lower ranked schools.


Thanks for your reply. I did prepare for the LSAT, I took an LSAT prep course with Testmasters and did 20 practice tests. Making a smart financial decision is what concerns me most too. I guess failing that, I'd rather avoid any avoidable financial catastrophes. I just don't understand why people are saying I won't find a legal job with an NIU degree when employment statistics between these two schools are the same

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/niu/
57%

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-chicago/
57%

What am I missing? Loyola costs a hell of a lot more and employs the same % of graduates

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Mullens
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby Mullens » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:28 pm

rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:
rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:I'm curious as to why you can't take a gap year and retake the LSAT? How old are you?


I'm almost 30 already. I took the LSAT twice, first time I got a 154, 2nd time I got a 158. I never even pre-tested above a 160. I think re-taking is pointless. Safe to say I'm not making it to the Ivy League. I think BigLaw is out for me

Did you prepare for it? Those aren't bad scores and you're not to old to take another year. People at TLS will encourage smart choices if BigLaw isn't your goal, but the school you're looking at will likely not get you a legal job at all. It's just not a smart choice. We aren't "big law or bust" as a lot of people seem to make us out to be here, but we like to see everyone make smart financial decisions and be employed post law school. Going to a smaller Chicago school or UIUC with the goal of working in a mid or small firm or public interest with a 75% scholarship could arguably be a good decision.

Going to a law school that people literally forget exists, with ambiguous goals besides "I want to be an attorney." Is a poor decision and one that will likely end poorly. NIU is in an even worse spot because it's not in Chicago so networking and hustling is even harder than the other lower ranked schools.




Thanks for your reply. I did prepare for the LSAT, I took an LSAT prep course with Testmasters and did 20 practice tests. Making a smart financial decision is what concerns me most too. I guess failing that, I'd rather avoid any avoidable financial catastrophes. I just don't understand why people are saying I won't find a legal job with an NIU degree when employment statistics between these two schools are the same

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/niu/
57%

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-chicago/
57%

What am I missing? Loyola costs a hell of a lot more and employs the same % of graduates


You're missing the 43% of people from both schools that don't find legal jobs.

IExistedOnceBefore
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:30 pm

rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:
rzzza wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:I'm curious as to why you can't take a gap year and retake the LSAT? How old are you?


I'm almost 30 already. I took the LSAT twice, first time I got a 154, 2nd time I got a 158. I never even pre-tested above a 160. I think re-taking is pointless. Safe to say I'm not making it to the Ivy League. I think BigLaw is out for me

Did you prepare for it? Those aren't bad scores and you're not to old to take another year. People at TLS will encourage smart choices if BigLaw isn't your goal, but the school you're looking at will likely not get you a legal job at all. It's just not a smart choice. We aren't "big law or bust" as a lot of people seem to make us out to be here, but we like to see everyone make smart financial decisions and be employed post law school. Going to a smaller Chicago school or UIUC with the goal of working in a mid or small firm or public interest with a 75% scholarship could arguably be a good decision.

Going to a law school that people literally forget exists, with ambiguous goals besides "I want to be an attorney." Is a poor decision and one that will likely end poorly. NIU is in an even worse spot because it's not in Chicago so networking and hustling is even harder than the other lower ranked schools.


Thanks for your reply. I did prepare for the LSAT, I took an LSAT prep course with Testmasters and did 20 practice tests. Making a smart financial decision is what concerns me most too. I guess failing that, I'd rather avoid any avoidable financial catastrophes. I just don't understand why people are saying I won't find a legal job with an NIU degree when employment statistics between these two schools are the same

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/niu/
57%

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-chicago/
57%

What am I missing? Loyola costs a hell of a lot more and employs the same % of graduates



Ah, I think the piece your missing is that the you will likely not find a legal job with an NIU degree or a Loyal Degree, and thus should go to neither school. No one is advocating one over the other, they're saying do not go at all. Both have equally terrible employment statistics, and neither is worth going to even for free. Loyola could potentially gain the edge purely due to it's location and ability to network but very few people will encourage it. You don't have enough money to Loyola, or a really solid mentality on what you want to do, so I'm not encouraging it.

Employment numbers can be helpful, and I'm glad you're looking at them, but they don't tell the whole story. With Loyola you have a chance at working in Big Law, and the jobs that you will be getting are going to generally pay marginally more than the jobs you would get at NIU. Whereas NIU is literally in the middle of a cornfield. No where to network, very little alumni connections and you likely won't get a job in Chicago with a degree from there.

Going to either school is a poor financial decision. You want to go to NIU, you're asking if it's a good idea. We're telling you no. Going to NIU, even for "free" is inviting an avoidable financial catastrophe.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:37 pm

rzzza wrote:What am I missing? Loyola costs a hell of a lot more and employs the same % of graduates


You're missing the fact that no one is telling you to go to Loyola.

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Slippin' Jimmy
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby Slippin' Jimmy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:05 pm

I'll ask you the same question everyone else has: WHY do you want to be a lawyer?

In a vacuum, NIU is the better choice but both of these options are pretty terrible. The LSAT is a very learn-able test, and doing a test masters course + 20 PTs (which I'm assuming you didn't blind review) is not the most you can do. If you can't substantially increase your score and get more defensible choices you may want to reconsider law school.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:23 pm

UVA2B wrote:
rzzza wrote:
snowball2 wrote:Hate to spoil the fun, but in this case free is the appropriate price. The school's employment stats are nearly non-existent. You're looking at a potential lifetime of employment, so being penny-wise is likely more than a a bit foolish. Is UIUC not in the picture? In any case, Loyola's top 15% made it to big firms last year (100+ lawyers) and the top 10% made it to biglaw. Still light-years ahead of Northern.


I'm on the UIUC wait list, but I doubt they'd offer me much of a scholarship even if I get accepted off the wait list.

Whats so great about large law firms anyway? I'm not too worried about getting into a large law firm after graduation. A $50,000-$60,000 salary starting out my first year in a small firmor working as an in-house attorney for some corporation seems plenty good to me if it means I don't have to pay back some massive six figure debt.


Two points:
1. What if that $50-60k/year (should you manage to be employed at all outside of your own shingle) never goes up?

Why would you expect that $50K - 60K/year would never go up?

Honestly, if OP has a strong chance of a starting salary of $50K - $60K /year out of this TTTT, I think his plan makes sense. But the problem is that landing a legal job with a starting salary in that range is probably an above-median outcome for graduates of the law school he wants to attend.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:32 pm

rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
rzzza wrote:
snowball2 wrote:Hate to spoil the fun, but in this case free is the appropriate price. The school's employment stats are nearly non-existent. You're looking at a potential lifetime of employment, so being penny-wise is likely more than a a bit foolish. Is UIUC not in the picture? In any case, Loyola's top 15% made it to big firms last year (100+ lawyers) and the top 10% made it to biglaw. Still light-years ahead of Northern.


I'm on the UIUC wait list, but I doubt they'd offer me much of a scholarship even if I get accepted off the wait list.

Whats so great about large law firms anyway? I'm not too worried about getting into a large law firm after graduation. A $50,000-$60,000 salary starting out my first year in a small firmor working as an in-house attorney for some corporation seems plenty good to me if it means I don't have to pay back some massive six figure debt.


Two points:
1. What if that $50-60k/year (should you manage to be employed at all outside of your own shingle) never goes up?

Why would you expect that $50K - 60K/year would never go up?

Honestly, if OP has a strong chance of a starting salary of $50K - $60K /year out of this TTTT, I think his plan makes sense. But the problem is that landing a legal job with a starting salary in that range is probably an above-median outcome for graduates of the law school he wants to attend.


I didn't mean this that they wouldn't ever go up, just that when you're talking about small firms, there isn't a guarantee of the salary ever increasing. In a firm that small, entrepreneurial abilities will determine whether that hypothetical $50-60k/year ever goes up (as a previous poster mentioned I think about "eat what you kill").

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:48 pm

UVA2B wrote:I didn't mean this that they wouldn't ever go up, just that when you're talking about small firms, there isn't a guarantee of the salary ever increasing. In a firm that small, entrepreneurial abilities will determine whether that hypothetical $50-60k/year ever goes up (as a previous poster mentioned I think about "eat what you kill").

I'm not sure your assumptions hold. In the long run, I think graduates of TTTs who end up at small firms have considerably more upside potential--compared to their starting salaries--than T14 graduates who go into big law.

In big law, you start at $180K. Although it's true that your salary is guaranteed to go up while you're in big law due to lockstep compensation, most associates abandon big law after four or five years. And most people who leave big law end up with lower salaries--in many cases, significantly lower salaries. Law is a weird profession in that the "top" graduates tend to see their salaries decline after several years.

Now, the typical TTT graduate starts with a much lower salary than the typical T14 graduate. But the TTT graduates generally see their salaries increase with time. I'm several years out of law school, and it's amusing to watch the gradual salary convergence of my T14-grad friends and my TTT-grad friends. A lot of them are ending up in the same types of jobs (small law firms, local government offices, etc.).

To be make a short story long, I don't think the problem with attending a TTT is salary stagnation. The problem is that there's often a decent chance that you won't be able to get a job as a lawyer at all, leaving you with three wasted years (and, in some cases, a bunch of debt).

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:I didn't mean this that they wouldn't ever go up, just that when you're talking about small firms, there isn't a guarantee of the salary ever increasing. In a firm that small, entrepreneurial abilities will determine whether that hypothetical $50-60k/year ever goes up (as a previous poster mentioned I think about "eat what you kill").

I'm not sure your assumptions hold. In the long run, I think graduates of TTTs who end up at small firms have considerably more upside potential--compared to their starting salaries--than T14 graduates who go into big law.

In big law, you start at $180K. Although it's true that your salary is guaranteed to go up while you're in big law due to lockstep compensation, most associates abandon big law after four or five years. And most people who leave big law end up with lower salaries--in many cases, significantly lower salaries. Law is a weird profession in that the "top" graduates tend to see their salaries decline after several years.

Now, the typical TTT graduate starts with a much lower salary than the typical T14 graduate. But the TTT graduates generally see their salaries increase with time. I'm several years out of law school, and it's amusing to watch the gradual salary convergence of my T14-grad friends and my TTT-grad friends. A lot of them are ending up in the same types of jobs (small law firms, local government offices, etc.).

To be make a short story long, I don't think the problem with attending a TTT is salary stagnation. The problem is that there's often a decent chance that you won't be able to get a job as a lawyer at all, leaving you with three wasted years (and, in some cases, a bunch of debt).


That's all fair, and I completely agree the entry into the profession being the primary problem. But it's also important to note that while not breaking into the profession is a big problem, so is fizzling out after hanging your own shingle trying to make it on your own because you don't get hired by the 8 lawyer shop.

Maybe I have some faulty assumptions in there because once you become established in the profession, it's more likely your salary increases, but it really depends on the stability of the firm, the growth potential of the firm and ability to increase salaries, etc. too. So while there might be convergence for the successful TTT with the T14 grad, that requires a lot more things to happen for the TTT than it does for the T14.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pm

UVA2B wrote:
That's all fair, and I completely agree the entry into the profession being the primary problem. But it's also important to note that while not breaking into the profession is a big problem, so is fizzling out after hanging your own shingle trying to make it on your own because you don't get hired by the 8 lawyer shop.

Just to be clear, I don't consider "hanging your own shingle right out of law school" to be a viable career option. I know a few folks do it and succeed, but it's extremely difficult. If a TTT grad says "I don't know what else to do so I'm going to hang my own shingle even though I have no experience as a lawyer," I consider them essentially unemployed.

The folks I know who ended up fine out of TTTs and TTTTs basically followed one of two paths:

1. Started at a small firm or office and then slowly developed skills and a practice.

2. Started at a low-salary job in a local government agency, and now make decent money (with a great lifestyle) due to a combination of promotions and seniority.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:42 am

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:Having your tuition covered doesn't mean it's free. Besides cost of living which I'm assuming you've calculated, you're spending three years to likely end up without a job. Those are three years you could have been working in another career and gaining experience and increasing your net worth. You lose three years income and experience.

Attorneys income does not go up based on how much experience they have. In smaller firms or hanging your own shingle it's very much "eat what you kill." If you aren't bringing in business you aren't getting paid. And it's a hard hustle.

In an incredibly saturated state, NIU is the worst choice. People forget it even exists. Loyola, DePaul, Kent and UIUC all hold some recognition. NIU does not.


Y'all need to chill with some of the unemployment mumbo jumbo. 76% of NIU's most recent class ended up with full-time, long-term professional jobs.

Some of y'all act like 30% of the class gets jobs. If you don't have unrealistic goals, there's nothing wrong with doing what OP is planning to do. Some people don't care about biglaw, big fed, and clerkships. If all you want is a decent-paying professional job, there's nothing wrong with taking a free education at a LS like NIU.

rzzza wrote:
snowball2 wrote:Hate to spoil the fun, but in this case free is the appropriate price. The school's employment stats are nearly non-existent. You're looking at a potential lifetime of employment, so being penny-wise is likely more than a a bit foolish. Is UIUC not in the picture? In any case, Loyola's top 15% made it to big firms last year (100+ lawyers) and the top 10% made it to biglaw. Still light-years ahead of Northern.


I'm on the UIUC wait list, but I doubt they'd offer me much of a scholarship even if I get accepted off the wait list.

Whats so great about large law firms anyway? I'm not too worried about getting into a large law firm after graduation. A $50,000-$60,000 salary starting out my first year in a small firm or working as an in-house attorney for some corporation seems plenty good to me if it means I don't have to pay back some massive six figure debt.


Take the scholarship. Go to NIU free. People here are often right, but they tend to focus too much on what they think should be your goals and their pessimistic outlook towards the legal field.

pancakes3 wrote:just another thread where efforts are wasted because the OP is too stupid to understand the "retake" advice.


One thing I especially respect about Johann is that he has perspective that most TLSers lack because he didn't go to a top school. The retake advice isn't the right advice for every person. People can get angry that the OP won't listen, but the OP is making a defensible choice. Advice isn't one size fits all. If a person's goals are commensurate for a TTT or TTTT, it makes plenty of sense to go there for free.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:22 am

lavarman84 wrote:Y'all need to chill with some of the unemployment mumbo jumbo. 76% of NIU's most recent class ended up with full-time, long-term professional jobs.


But that includes non-legal jobs.

If the OP wants a mediocre shot at actually being a practicing lawyer, then NIU is a fine choice for free. But it's not quite clear what OP wants to do (in fact, if you look at their prior thread, they want to go to law school for lack of any better ideas).

lavarman84 wrote:One thing I especially respect about Johann is that he has perspective that most TLSers lack because he didn't go to a top school. The retake advice isn't the right advice for every person.


Johann isn't the only person who didn't go to a top school. Johann is the only person who advises getting into six figures of debt for a shit degree and a coin-flip chance at being a lawyer. So if you think that's something worthy of "respect", knock yourself out. I think it's downright irresponsible, but that's just because I don't like the idea of putting strangers into stupid amounts of debt for nothing.

And retaking isn't the right choice for everyone, but it is for the OP if they want to be a lawyer (which, again, doesn't seem to be clear).

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:47 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:Y'all need to chill with some of the unemployment mumbo jumbo. 76% of NIU's most recent class ended up with full-time, long-term professional jobs.


But that includes non-legal jobs.

If the OP wants a mediocre shot at actually being a practicing lawyer, then NIU is a fine choice for free. But it's not quite clear what OP wants to do (in fact, if you look at their prior thread, they want to go to law school for lack of any better ideas).


Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs? They're professional, full-time jobs. OP doesn't seem to care. This is why advice should be tailored to the person asking. Even then, he has a 75% chance (based on the LST data) to end up in a full-time, long-term bar passage required or JD advantage job.

Johann isn't the only person who didn't go to a top school. Johann is the only person who advises getting into six figures of debt for a shit degree and a coin-flip chance at being a lawyer. So if you think that's something worthy of "respect", knock yourself out. I think it's downright irresponsible, but that's just because I don't like the idea of putting strangers into stupid amounts of debt for nothing.

And retaking isn't the right choice for everyone, but it is for the OP if they want to be a lawyer (which, again, doesn't seem to be clear).


Johann has sounds reasons for the advice he gives (which he's never shied away from explaining). He doesn't hide the ball. And he doesn't refuse to give people advice because he disagrees with what they want. Yes, I think it's worthy of respect. Plus, Johann is a practicing lawyer. He's not a 0L or law student pretending to know it all.

Retaking isn't right for the OP if he can't do substantially better on the LSAT. Even if he can achieve a higher score, there's no guarantees he ends up with significantly better options.

OP is one of the rare people who should be fine doing this. He's not set on some unattainable goal or field of law. He seems flexible with his career options. He has no issues working in small law, government, or in-house/compliance (I'm assuming based on his comments). He has sales experience (which definitely will help).

There's no reason for people to be calling him stupid because he doesn't agree with the one size fits all motto here. It's plenty justifiable in his situation to choose the path he is. And people need not misrepresent what he's walking into at NIU. It's not a great situation, but it's not "likely" he'll end up unemployed.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:12 am

lavarman84 wrote:Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs?


I think we fundamentally disagree about the value of going to law school.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby Nebby » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:17 am

Can we permanently ban lawman for being dumber than a bag of rocks?

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby guybourdin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:26 am

lavarman84 wrote:
Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs? They're professional, full-time jobs. OP doesn't seem to care. This is why advice should be tailored to the person asking.


OP has been pretty vague about goals, but all stated goals definitely involved being a lawyer. So...

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:26 am

Nebby wrote:Can we permanently ban lawman for being dumber than a bag of rocks?


Nothing I've said here is dumb. It just doesn't jive with the groupthink on this site. I've posted the objective data. It doesn't back what people here are saying. OP can achieve his goals via NIU. If people here were willing to look past their biases, they would recognize this is a scenario where the typical TLS advice isn't applicable.

OP has the opportunity to get his JD for next to nothing. He doesn't have high expectations for jobs coming out. There's nothing wrong with this decision. The terrible option is going to Loyola and taking on all that debt.

cavalier1138 wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs?


I think we fundamentally disagree about the value of going to law school.


The value of going to law school is landing a professional job. This OP cares less about the exact parameters of that job than most. Accordingly, the value he sees in going to law school isn't reduced by a JD advantage job. And as the title of that sort of job makes clear, going to law school offers value in terms of getting that sort of job.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:28 am

guybourdin wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs? They're professional, full-time jobs. OP doesn't seem to care. This is why advice should be tailored to the person asking.


OP has been pretty vague about goals, but all stated goals definitely involved being a lawyer. So...


I'm sure they do. Most people don't go to law school to do something else, but OP doesn't seem bothered by the possibility of using his JD for a different professional job. OP knows the realities of what he faces and is okay with it. He doesn't have unrealistic goals.

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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby guybourdin » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:07 am

lavarman84 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
Who cares if it includes non-legal jobs? They're professional, full-time jobs. OP doesn't seem to care. This is why advice should be tailored to the person asking.


OP has been pretty vague about goals, but all stated goals definitely involved being a lawyer. So...


I'm sure they do. Most people don't go to law school to do something else, but OP doesn't seem bothered by the possibility of using his JD for a different professional job. OP knows the realities of what he faces and is okay with it. He doesn't have unrealistic goals.



OP has mentioned multiple times being desirous of going to the top schools in the state but not believe he could get in. He has also said all of the below:
A $50,000-$60,000 salary starting out my first year in a small firm or working as an in-house attorney .

I thought attorneys generally get paid more the more experience they have.

I'd rather not gamble on the assumption that I'll make it into BigLaw...I think BigLaw is out for me.

I just don't understand why people are saying I won't find a legal job with an NIU degree.


What part of any of this makes you comfortable saying OP is okay with a 'professional job' instead of a legal one or that OP isn't bothered by the possibility of never practicing (and just slotting into JD advantage positions immediately). Admittedly, nothing OP has said rules out taking up that kind of work, but I see nothing he has said to support your statements. What you've done is crafted a new narrative for OP instead of letting them speak for themselves and then tried to defend OPs decision to consider NIU based on your story instead of based on theirs, because everything OP has said indicates, to me and most others here, that OP wants to go to law school to become a lawyer and has not considered those JD advantage/"professional" positions you're talking about.

rzzza
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rzzza » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:56 am

Thanks for your help everyone. You've helped clear up the picture a bit more for me. It seems like my choice is between a low risk/low reward option and a high risk/higher reward one. Some of you may take issue with me describing NIU as 'low risk' but relatively speaking compared to my other option, it is the lower risk choice.

I've checked into the NALP reports for both schools and it seems like those that do find jobs out of law school from NIU get jobs in the $45,000-$55,000 range. Anything higher than that is rare and the school simply doesn't place anyone into big firms. The NALP data from Loyola is a bit different, those that do find jobs graduating from Loyola tend to get hired in positions that pay $50,000-80,000 with about 15% of each graduating class finding their way into larger firms and getting salaries in the $90,000 range. The 75th percentile of salaries from Loyola is much higher than the 75th percentile of salaries from NIU.

One other thing that really stuck in my mind here is what IExistedOnceBefore said about Loyola being in the heart of the city and having a lot of alumni connections, which NIU seems to lack.

The question for me is if I feel more comfortable taking the lower risk option with no debt, but knowing that my earning potential will be capped at $50,000...or if I feel brave enough to gamble on the higher risk option for the potential to gain employment at a job that pays $60,000-$90,000 (with a small chance of making it to Big Law). For all that's been said about Loyola's reputation (or lack thereof), these NALP reports speak for themselves. Those that get hired from this school tend to earn more.

I see the pro's and con's of either choice, I'm very indecisive and I know whichever choice I end up making...I'll be thinking about the other choice I didn't make for 3 long years and wondering if I didn't make a mistake. I don't know whether I should err on the side of no debt or err on the side of a risky gamble for the small chance of being in that 75th percentile at Loyola.

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pancakes3
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:00 am

pancakes3 wrote:just another thread where efforts are wasted because the OP is too stupid to understand the "retake" advice.

rzzza
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Re: Choosing a free education at a 4th tier law school?

Postby rzzza » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:12 am

pancakes3 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:just another thread where efforts are wasted because the OP is too stupid to understand the "retake" advice.


I'm not retaking, I don't know how many times I have to say this.

There's a difference between not understanding advice and not taking it. You can stop giving me advice that I've explicitly rejected 12 times now. If it was up to some of you I'd spend the next 5 years of my life studying for the LSAT and re-taking it. I'm done with that. I'm moving on with my life. Thanks




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