GW ($$$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

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GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

GW
2
13%
WUSTL
1
6%
Hold out for Georgetown and pray for Cornell
1
6%
Reapply
12
75%
 
Total votes: 16

mountaineerman
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GW ($$$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby mountaineerman » Thu May 25, 2017 1:02 am

Hello! Canadian transplant here looking for some advice on these schools:

GW - 28k/year scholly
WUSTL - 20k/year scholly
Georgetown - WL
Cornell - No response yet

Do I reapply?

LSAT: 168 1st time (2015 test, can't retake)
GPA: 2.9 UG with a 3.8 graded Master's (natural and political sciences)
3 years work experience with 1 year in government
Abundant and diverse life experience
Location goals: DC > NYC > Cali > Colorado or Chicago or PNW
Career goals: PI/Federal gov agency, but I know that'll be tough so I am gunning to slug it out in big law - perhaps energy/environmental, commerce, or human rights, ideally with an international focus - eventually, politics

Issue: late application due to serious injury/disability, these are the only schools that would take my application, in better shape now and considering reapplying to t13 - but is it worth the extra year considering my goals, offers, and stats? I am slightly older and would like to start asap

And is WUSTL really better than GW? (USNR 18 v 30) or does GW's location make up for its weaker reputation?

Edit! GW upped offer.

Thanks!
Last edited by mountaineerman on Fri May 26, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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chargers21
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby chargers21 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:18 am

why can't you retake?

mountaineerman
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby mountaineerman » Thu May 25, 2017 1:23 am

chargers21 wrote:why can't you retake?


Timing. Too late for June and want to reapply as soon as they open

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chargers21
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby chargers21 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:27 am

mountaineerman wrote:
chargers21 wrote:why can't you retake?


Timing. Too late for June and want to reapply as soon as they open

You're about to be railroaded by people saying to retake. Taking the September LSAT and applying the day you get your scores back will be fine and you still have plenty of time to study until then. A better score will help tremendously with that gpa

cavalier1138
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:20 am

mountaineerman wrote:PI/Federal gov agency, but I know that'll be tough so I am gunning to slug it out in big law - perhaps energy/environmental, commerce, or human rights, ideally with an international focus - eventually, politics


Ok, for starters, these are extremely disjointed career goals. But if the bolded is your real goal, don't go to law school.

If you're going to apply again, regardless of whether it's a good idea, you need to retake the LSAT. Your undergraduate GPA is going to knock you out of the running for most of the T13 without a 170+ LSAT, even with an "abundant and diverse life experience".

mountaineerman
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby mountaineerman » Thu May 25, 2017 1:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
mountaineerman wrote:PI/Federal gov agency, but I know that'll be tough so I am gunning to slug it out in big law - perhaps energy/environmental, commerce, or human rights, ideally with an international focus - eventually, politics


Ok, for starters, these are extremely disjointed career goals. But if the bolded is your real goal, don't go to law school.

If you're going to apply again, regardless of whether it's a good idea, you need to retake the LSAT. Your undergraduate GPA is going to knock you out of the running for most of the T13 without a 170+ LSAT, even with an "abundant and diverse life experience".


Is the difference between 168 and 170 that great? I've heard that if you don't do much better schools can look at it like you reached your ceiling - and I might've; I aced AR, did well on LR, and didn't finish RC - which was typical of my PTs. And isn't 168 generally the threshold to get looked at by t13s? I'm aware that my UGPA is bad, but it's also somewhat misleading. My first two years were awful and my last two years were good, that trend continued into grad school, and is evidenced by the Master's GPA.

Re: goals, yes they're disjointed, but I've had a disjointed life featuring loads of adversity and diversity, and I believe I can reconcile them by going to law school. Political advisory, public policy, and then (maybe) public office, remain long term goals - but I want a fresh career start and some years in big law (or PI/clerkship + agency) could offer that.

Again, I'd really like to start this year, and if my UGPA is going to be that much of a hindrance, would it not be better to take the money at GW or WUSTL? If so, which of these schools is better? I was leaning WUSTL because of rankings, campus, COL, and its DC externship/clinic programs; but GW is located in DC and is offering slightly more money.

cavalier1138
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 25, 2017 2:36 pm

mountaineerman wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
mountaineerman wrote:PI/Federal gov agency, but I know that'll be tough so I am gunning to slug it out in big law - perhaps energy/environmental, commerce, or human rights, ideally with an international focus - eventually, politics


Ok, for starters, these are extremely disjointed career goals. But if the bolded is your real goal, don't go to law school.

If you're going to apply again, regardless of whether it's a good idea, you need to retake the LSAT. Your undergraduate GPA is going to knock you out of the running for most of the T13 without a 170+ LSAT, even with an "abundant and diverse life experience".


Is the difference between 168 and 170 that great? I've heard that if you don't do much better schools can look at it like you reached your ceiling - and I might've; I aced AR, did well on LR, and didn't finish RC - which was typical of my PTs. And isn't 168 generally the threshold to get looked at by t13s? I'm aware that my UGPA is bad, but it's also somewhat misleading. My first two years were awful and my last two years were good, that trend continued into grad school, and is evidenced by the Master's GPA.

Re: goals, yes they're disjointed, but I've had a disjointed life featuring loads of adversity and diversity, and I believe I can reconcile them by going to law school. Political advisory, public policy, and then (maybe) public office, remain long term goals - but I want a fresh career start and some years in big law (or PI/clerkship + agency) could offer that.

Again, I'd really like to start this year, and if my UGPA is going to be that much of a hindrance, would it not be better to take the money at GW or WUSTL? If so, which of these schools is better? I was leaning WUSTL because of rankings, campus, COL, and its DC externship/clinic programs; but GW is located in DC and is offering slightly more money.


In order:

Yes, the difference between 168 and 170 is that big. Your Master's GPA is irrelevant. When I said your goals were "disjointed", I was being polite; your "short-term" goals are completely unconnected and do not mesh with a political career. I'm not convinced you should go to law school at all, but if you insist on going this year, go to WashU for the better shot at biglaw.

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guynourmin
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby guynourmin » Thu May 25, 2017 3:05 pm

mountaineerman wrote:Is the difference between 168 and 170 that great? I've heard that if you don't do much better schools can look at it like you reached your ceiling


The difference is huge, yes. Beyond that, what is wrong with reaching your 'ceiling'? That should be your goal. No one is going to look down on you for doing as well as you can on a test. I don't understand this concern, but I don't care: the difference between a 168 and a 170 is huge. Even if a 170 doesn't land you some t14s, it'll still increase your current awards by a lot of money (possibly upwards of $50k).


mountaineerman wrote:Again, I'd really like to start this year, and if my UGPA is going to be that much of a hindrance, would it not be better to take the money at GW or WUSTL?


You didn't really get that much money, though. "take the money" still puts you at $170-180+ in debt at least. WUSTL throws around a TON of money. I'm not saying a 170 gets you a full ride, but it probably gets you 35-40k/yr at least. Would that not be worth it to you? that's a big difference imo. I don't know why you wouldn't want to try for that.

mountaineerman
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby mountaineerman » Thu May 25, 2017 5:30 pm

guybourdin wrote:
mountaineerman wrote:Is the difference between 168 and 170 that great? I've heard that if you don't do much better schools can look at it like you reached your ceiling


The difference is huge, yes. Beyond that, what is wrong with reaching your 'ceiling'? That should be your goal. No one is going to look down on you for doing as well as you can on a test. I don't understand this concern, but I don't care: the difference between a 168 and a 170 is huge. Even if a 170 doesn't land you some t14s, it'll still increase your current awards by a lot of money (possibly upwards of $50k).


That's the big if, I would be a year ahead towards working and (hopefully) earning more than 50k. And there is a possibility that my score may not improve.. My PTs were typically in the 171-174 range, but I have difficulty with the test due to physical limitations and I'm not sure that sitting for it again would improve my score. On the off chance my score doesn't improve, the fact that I retook two years later and was unable to improve would be looked at with disfavor, no?

guybourdin wrote:
mountaineerman wrote:Again, I'd really like to start this year, and if my UGPA is going to be that much of a hindrance, would it not be better to take the money at GW or WUSTL?


You didn't really get that much money, though. "take the money" still puts you at $170-180+ in debt at least. WUSTL throws around a TON of money. I'm not saying a 170 gets you a full ride, but it probably gets you 35-40k/yr at least. Would that not be worth it to you? that's a big difference imo. I don't know why you wouldn't want to try for that.


Fortunately, I have savings and low interest loans so debt is not my primary concern. Time lost, on the other hand, is, and the only way the effort would be worth it is if I got into a T14 program or a full(ish) ride elsewhere; both of which, it seems, are doubtful prospects. I'd be more comfortable reapplying if the chances of going T14 were higher but the unknown of it and my laggard UGPA make me worry that I'd be taking a year off just to get slightly more money from schools I can go to this year, which wouldn't be, imo, worth it.

Also, bump for thoughts on the GW vs WUSTL debate? I see one vote for WUSTL so far..

mountaineerman
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby mountaineerman » Thu May 25, 2017 5:36 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:In order:

Yes, the difference between 168 and 170 is that big. Your Master's GPA is irrelevant. When I said your goals were "disjointed", I was being polite; your "short-term" goals are completely unconnected and do not mesh with a political career. I'm not convinced you should go to law school at all, but if you insist on going this year, go to WashU for the better shot at biglaw.


Thank you! I appreciate the candor and advice.

Last question, 170 with all things considered, what odds do you give for T14?

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chargers21
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby chargers21 » Thu May 25, 2017 5:38 pm

Schools do not care about retakes, or even really score drops. Evidence: me.

RedPurpleBlue
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Thu May 25, 2017 5:49 pm

mountaineerman wrote:
Also, bump for thoughts on the GW vs WUSTL debate? I see one vote for WUSTL so far..


GW and WUSTL are terrible options at your estimated COA ($200k+). There is a reason why only 2 out of the 11 votes currently cast in the poll are GW/WUSTL. You need to either get more money at your state flagship or a popular private school that has a good reputation in a nearby metro and will throw money at your 168 regardless of your GPA (think Drake with Des Moines). Otherwise, if you go to GW or WUSTL, you're going to have a mountain of debt and less than a coin flip chance of paying it off in private practice. I'd recommend retaking or going to a cheap/free T1 that doesn't have terrible employment statistics. You (likely) won't end up in biglaw, but at least you'll have a reasonable income to debt ratio.

Also, if politics is your end game goal, you shouldn't go to law school. You already have 3 years of WE and 1 in government. Go run for state representative in your district or city council.

With a 170 and a 2.9 and 4yrs WE, you'd have a decent shot at Northwestern. They are notorious for taking splitters and they love WE.

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njdevils2626
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Re: GW ($$) vs WUSTL ($$) vs WL vs Reapply

Postby njdevils2626 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:21 pm

mountaineerman wrote:Hello! Canadian transplant here looking for some advice on these schools:

GW - 25k/year scholly
WUSTL - 20k/year scholly
Georgetown - WL
Cornell - No response yet

Do I reapply?

LSAT: 168 1st time (2015 test, can't retake)
GPA: 2.9 UG with a 3.8 graded Master's (natural and political sciences)
3 years work experience with 1 year in government
Abundant and diverse life experience
Location goals: DC > NYC > Cali > Colorado or Chicago or PNW
Career goals: PI/Federal gov agency, but I know that'll be tough so I am gunning to slug it out in big law - perhaps energy/environmental, commerce, or human rights, ideally with an international focus - eventually, politics

Issue: late application due to serious injury/disability, these are the only schools that would take my application, in better shape now and considering reapplying to t13 - but is it worth the extra year considering my goals, offers, and stats? I am slightly older and would like to start asap

And is WUSTL really better than GW? (USNR 18 v 30) or does GW's location make up for its weaker reputation?

Thanks!


Alright, a few things here. Firstly, are you a dual citizen or just Canadian? If you're Canadian, relying on the TN visa to keep you in the country is a risky proposition - who knows what NAFTA might look like 3 years from now - and if you end up needing an H1-B to stay in the country, you're basically limited to Big Law and none of your school options are good bets at those prices. Further, most (if not all) fed gov will be out of the question. Politics would also be even more difficult than usual. The caveat there being that other posters who have said that, if politics is your ultimate goal, don't go to law school are all correct.

Secondly, have you tried negotiating at all yet? WUSTL is a super easy negotiation partner and, if approached, will likely increase your scholarship.

Lastly, yes the difference between a 168 and a 170 is significant. I would echo the comments of others here who have recommended retaking and reapplying.




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