T90 School; asking for a friend

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joefresh
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T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 1:42 pm

Hello TLS,

I have been accepted to a T90 law school in a region I want to practice in. I'll be paying full price to attend. My goals are mostly PI but I could be persuaded into some other field. I will be taking out loans to fund the three years. My total debt load should not exceed $200,000 after the three years. I am dead set on having a career in law.

Let me know what you think!
Last edited by joefresh on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed May 24, 2017 1:45 pm

I think you should retake the LSAT to avoid ending up in a soul-crushing amount of debt you can't pay off.

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34iplaw
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby 34iplaw » Wed May 24, 2017 2:05 pm

I agree with Cav. Given they are lifting the restriction on how many times you can take the LSAT, there isn't really a reason to not to try to score higher for the vast majority of circumstances.

I'd tell your friend that they should sincerely consider deferring and devoting their time and energy to the LSAT.

edit: your pronouns and thread title confused me.

joefresh
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 2:14 pm

How will the debt be soul crushing? What salary can be reasonably expecting assuming private sector?

celticsfan
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby celticsfan » Wed May 24, 2017 2:19 pm

joefresh wrote:How will the debt be soul crushing? What salary can be reasonably expecting assuming private sector?


You can't assume private sector from a T90 school

grades??
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby grades?? » Wed May 24, 2017 2:20 pm

At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

joefresh
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 2:27 pm

But don't some grads work at small, successful regional firms and make like over 100k after graduation?

DM is also available

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mjb447
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby mjb447 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:29 pm

"I could be persuaded into some other field" struck me oddly. Like others here are saying, it's not very likely that you're going to be able to be choosy if you go to this school, particularly if you're paying 100% through loans.

Barrred
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby Barrred » Wed May 24, 2017 2:39 pm

Its only advisable if your friend is so risk-tolerant that he is willing to pay $200,000 for a 50% chance of being employed as a lawyer making $40-60K for at least the first decade of practice, along with a 50% chance of never getting a job where a JD is required. Even if he lands a job as a PI lawyer (which are hard to get from that school range), he cant even count on public service loan forgiveness in 10 years given the current political/economic climate.

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rpupkin
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby rpupkin » Wed May 24, 2017 2:39 pm

grades?? wrote:At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

The bolded isn't true, but, yeah, definitely do not take on 200K of debt to go to a school like this.

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chargers21
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby chargers21 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:46 pm

Retake. This type of school is not worth that much.

Also, although the validity of gpa/lsat mattering to LS performance is contested, being the person paying full price at a t90 does not bode well for the chances of having the best grades and having the best outcomes

joefresh
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 2:53 pm

What price would justify going to a school like this? 100 in debt? 50? free? Please elaborate.

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guynourmin
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby guynourmin » Wed May 24, 2017 3:02 pm

joefresh wrote:What price would justify going to a school like this? 100 in debt? 50? free? Please elaborate.

It really depends on the situation - some people would say 100-120, some people would say living expenses, some people would say they aren't worth attending at all. What we can agree on is that they aren't worth sticker. If your friend is positive they have done as well as they could possibly do on the LSAT and they've already graduated and their best option is still a TT at sticker, I would say they shouldn't go to law school at all. I would imagine they could do better on the lsat, though.

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chargers21
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby chargers21 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:04 pm

joefresh wrote:What price would justify going to a school like this? 100 in debt? 50? free? Please elaborate.

High GPA? nothing, unless it was the best school in the state you want to practice in, then free might make sense. Low GPA, 50kish is probably right for debt, I guess, but I'm no expert.

grades??
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby grades?? » Wed May 24, 2017 3:06 pm

rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

The bolded isn't true, but, yeah, definitely do not take on 200K of debt to go to a school like this.


I mean its kinda true. The 90s of the USNews rankings is Chicago Kent, Texas AM, Louisville, LSU, Michigan State, Stetson, and WVU.

Lets pick the first, middle, and last of this list:

1- Chicago Kent: 56% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/kent/jobs/

2- LSU: 60% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/

3- WVU: 62% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/

I mean this is pretty f^%&ing close to a coins flip chance to ever work as a lawyer. Sure not exactly 50/50, but 60/40 doesn't make me feel that much better.

OP, do not go to any of these schools for anything but free. Even that it is a risky decision.

cavalier1138
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:16 pm

joefresh wrote:But don't some grads work at small, successful regional firms and make like over 100k after graduation?



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No.

Edit: JFC. Looking at your post history, you're a student at at T2 who's trying to transfer up. Any particular reason you want to transfer out of your school? Too many amazing opportunities to work for a small, local firm that pays $100k in your first year? Why do you need us to tell your friend this is a bad plan?

joefresh
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 3:29 pm

@cavalier ..... cuz he won't listen to me. I want to/am gonna transfer because I've done my homework and agree with the things you're all saying. I'm at my T2 for free and intended to transfer (I like to live dangerously).

In the case of my friend, on the other hand, I intend to show him this thread to bring him down to earth.

joefresh
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby joefresh » Wed May 24, 2017 3:31 pm

Also started this thread to make sure I wasn't totally wrong in my belief that pretty much best case scenario out of a T2 is like 75k a year .... and a realistic outcome is 50k

So T2 is a no-go unless free?

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rpupkin
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby rpupkin » Wed May 24, 2017 3:50 pm

grades?? wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

The bolded isn't true, but, yeah, definitely do not take on 200K of debt to go to a school like this.


I mean its kinda true. The 90s of the USNews rankings is Chicago Kent, Texas AM, Louisville, LSU, Michigan State, Stetson, and WVU.

Lets pick the first, middle, and last of this list:

1- Chicago Kent: 56% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/kent/jobs/

2- LSU: 60% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/

3- WVU: 62% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/

I mean this is pretty f^%&ing close to a coins flip chance to ever work as a lawyer. Sure not exactly 50/50, but 60/40 doesn't make me feel that much better.

There's a huge assumption here: if a grad doesn't have a legal job nine months after graduation, they'll never have a legal job.

Based on my (admittedly anecdotal) observation of the experience of friends at TTTs, it's a lot more common at those schools to find a job after you've passed the bar. So, for example, in California, you find out if you pass the bar in late November, you then you get sworn in and get your license in December, and then you apply for jobs in January. (And, of course, there are many grads at these schools who don't pass the bar the first time, so they'll have to try again six months later). But the point is that a decent chunk of grads get jobs as lawyers more than nine months out.

Now, those are almost never high-paying jobs. And I totally agree with the general advice in this thread. But, in general, I find that TLS is too pessimistic about employment outcomes from these schools because we apply big-law hiring norms to other sectors of the legal economy.

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cron1834
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby cron1834 » Wed May 24, 2017 4:25 pm

Going to a mediocre school (90something is quintessentially mediocre) and getting a job is far from impossible, and there are tons of decent jobs that aren't biglaw.

With that said, $200k in debt is likely to be pretty close to $300k in total repayment with interest over time, assuming you don't get a biglaw salary to pay it off aggressively. There's no way a perfectly-adequate school like this is worth nearly $300,000. That's insane. Tell your friend not to be insane.

Npret
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby Npret » Wed May 24, 2017 4:38 pm

rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

The bolded isn't true, but, yeah, definitely do not take on 200K of debt to go to a school like this.


I mean its kinda true. The 90s of the USNews rankings is Chicago Kent, Texas AM, Louisville, LSU, Michigan State, Stetson, and WVU.

Lets pick the first, middle, and last of this list:

1- Chicago Kent: 56% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/kent/jobs/

2- LSU: 60% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/

3- WVU: 62% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/

I mean this is pretty f^%&ing close to a coins flip chance to ever work as a lawyer. Sure not exactly 50/50, but 60/40 doesn't make me feel that much better.

There's a huge assumption here: if a grad doesn't have a legal job nine months after graduation, they'll never have a legal job.

Based on my (admittedly anecdotal) observation of the experience of friends at TTTs, it's a lot more common at those schools to find a job after you've passed the bar. So, for example, in California, you find out if you pass the bar in late November, you then you get sworn in and get your license in December, and then you apply for jobs in January. (And, of course, there are many grads at these schools who don't pass the bar the first time, so they'll have to try again six months later). But the point is that a decent chunk of grads get jobs as lawyers more than nine months out.

Now, those are almost never high-paying jobs. And I totally agree with the general advice in this thread. But, in general, I find that TLS is too pessimistic about employment outcomes from these schools because we apply big-law hiring norms to other sectors of the legal economy.


I thought the 9 month out thing was specifically to account for finding jobs after taking and passing the bar? Why would they use 9 months otherwise? Maybe it was started when bar results came back faster.

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rpupkin
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby rpupkin » Wed May 24, 2017 5:36 pm

Npret wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:At best from a school in that range is a 50% of ever getting a job as a lawyer. The private sector for grads from those schools means small firms. Usually 40-50k a year, if you are one of the lucky ones. Good luck making 50k and paying off 200k.

The bolded isn't true, but, yeah, definitely do not take on 200K of debt to go to a school like this.


I mean its kinda true. The 90s of the USNews rankings is Chicago Kent, Texas AM, Louisville, LSU, Michigan State, Stetson, and WVU.

Lets pick the first, middle, and last of this list:

1- Chicago Kent: 56% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/kent/jobs/

2- LSU: 60% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/

3- WVU: 62% legal jobs
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/

I mean this is pretty f^%&ing close to a coins flip chance to ever work as a lawyer. Sure not exactly 50/50, but 60/40 doesn't make me feel that much better.

There's a huge assumption here: if a grad doesn't have a legal job nine months after graduation, they'll never have a legal job.

Based on my (admittedly anecdotal) observation of the experience of friends at TTTs, it's a lot more common at those schools to find a job after you've passed the bar. So, for example, in California, you find out if you pass the bar in late November, you then you get sworn in and get your license in December, and then you apply for jobs in January. (And, of course, there are many grads at these schools who don't pass the bar the first time, so they'll have to try again six months later). But the point is that a decent chunk of grads get jobs as lawyers more than nine months out.

Now, those are almost never high-paying jobs. And I totally agree with the general advice in this thread. But, in general, I find that TLS is too pessimistic about employment outcomes from these schools because we apply big-law hiring norms to other sectors of the legal economy.


I thought the 9 month out thing was specifically to account for finding jobs after taking and passing the bar?

It is. And some folks do find jobs shortly after passing the bar, and they're accounted for in the stats. But the job search often takes longer than a couple of months. It's more akin to mass mailing than it is to other job-application-processes with which the typical TLS'er is familiar.

To be clear, I'm not saying that taking on a bunch of debt at these schools is a good idea. And the fact that so many are unemployed (or not in legal jobs) nine months after graduation is a telling sign about what your opportunities will look like coming out of these schools. I'm just taking issue with the categorical "you will never get a job as a lawyer" assumption that some are making based on the nine-month stat.

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Johann
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby Johann » Mon May 29, 2017 6:39 pm

joefresh wrote:(I'm going to assume first person pronouns for simplicity sake)

Hello TLS,

I have been accepted to a T90 law school in a region I want to practice in. I'll be paying full price to attend. My goals are mostly PI but I could be persuaded into some other field. I will be taking out loans to fund the three years. My total debt load should not exceed $200,000 after the three years. I am dead set on having a career in law.

Let me know what you think!

If you're doing PI, debt isn't a concern but the PI opportunities out of schools ranked between 80-90 will probably be sort of shitty.

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Johann
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby Johann » Mon May 29, 2017 6:42 pm

joefresh wrote:But don't some grads work at small, successful regional firms and make like over 100k after graduation?

DM is also available

10% big regional law (100k +); 10% midlaw (80-100) and prolly 80% in various roles of making 40-50k for the first 5 years after graduation. Those that really hustle can get to 100k maybe a little sooner than 5 years, but for the most part you need to view these schools as a 30 year career with a big chunk of the ROI in the back 20 years.

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Johann
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Re: T90 School; asking for a friend

Postby Johann » Mon May 29, 2017 6:45 pm

joefresh wrote:What price would justify going to a school like this? 100 in debt? 50? free? Please elaborate.

What are your alternative options? Working retail or something? Sure take the 200k. Random corporate drone making 40-50k? Stick to your day job and network from that.




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