Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:18 pm

Harvard (COA $204,000)
18
34%
Columbia (COA $140,000)
14
26%
Reapply (making $40-50,000 during the year)
21
40%
 
Total votes: 53

Rigo

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Rigo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:08 pm

Nebby wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Considering that poll results on Butler vs. Harvard are usually even, why is Columbia ahead?

Because it's 0Ls who don't know shit skewing the polls

So are you saying Harvard here? I think what you're saying here is the opposite of what you mean.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:14 pm

Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Considering that poll results on Butler vs. Harvard are usually even, why is Columbia ahead?

Because it's 0Ls who don't know shit skewing the polls

So are you saying Harvard here? I think what you're saying here is the opposite of what you mean.

I'm saying CLS and that 0Ls are dolts picking Harvard in the poll

Rigo

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Rigo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:19 pm

McMooch wrote:
Rigo wrote:Any way you can get more money from Columbia? Have you negotiated at all?

Can you elaborate more on your view. I always enjoy your comments on these threads.

I'm sticking with my original suggestion (Columbia). I think the COA difference will end up being $80-$100k once you factor in interest and a decreased 3L aid package at Harvard after your 2L SA.

Yeah it sucks that you got fucked with YP and don't have a Dillard or something but these options aren't absolutely terrible either.

The reality is that you are probably going to go with the path of least resistance which is biglaw since you haven't articulated a burning desire to do PI or a more unicorn career path (and even then, it's still be a debate to be had at which is better). Therefore, it comes down to debt minimization. Both Columbia and Harvard will easily get you biglaw, so why pay $80k+ more and have that extra debt albatross?
Just my 2 cents, which is probably what mostly everyone else is thinking who voted Columbia.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Rigo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:22 pm

Nebby wrote:
Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Considering that poll results on Butler vs. Harvard are usually even, why is Columbia ahead?

Because it's 0Ls who don't know shit skewing the polls

So are you saying Harvard here? I think what you're saying here is the opposite of what you mean.

I'm saying CLS and that 0Ls are dolts picking Harvard in the poll

I thought so. Just wanted to be clear for OP's sake since he asked why Columbia was winning and you said dumb 0L's which implied Columbia votes should be ignored and practicing lawyers were voting Harvard.

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Dcc617

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Dcc617 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:24 pm

Your outcomes suck with your numbers. God knows why, but they do. Fix whatever is fucked and reapply. You should have big T13 money.

Definitely don't go to Harvard at that much debt. It's dumb, especially if you just want big law. I know the stars dropped out of a lot of people's eyes at Harvard when the huge debt hit them.

You say you don't want to wait a year. Dude, you have your entire life. There's no medal for getting through law school faster. You're not going to have a worse outcome than you did this year, it's about as bad as it could be with your stats. Take a year, work, and try again. Don't throw yourself into a dumb decision.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Rigo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:32 pm

McMooch wrote:Harvard - total COA $204,000 (COL is covered and anticipating tuition increase)

Columbia - total COA $140,000 (COL covered and 75k scholarship and anticipating tuition increase)

Financing via some savings, 2L SA, and loans. Probably 40k overall will be not from savings.

Can you explain this a bit for me?
When you say COL is covered, you're not subtracting that from the COA are you because if so they seem pretty high.

Also what does the bolded mean. Do you have enough savings to cover all but $40k, which you will take out loans for?

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:54 pm

Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Considering that poll results on Butler vs. Harvard are usually even, why is Columbia ahead?

Because it's 0Ls who don't know shit skewing the polls

So are you saying Harvard here? I think what you're saying here is the opposite of what you mean.

I'm saying CLS and that 0Ls are dolts picking Harvard in the poll

I thought so. Just wanted to be clear for OP's sake since he asked why Columbia was winning and you said dumb 0L's which implied Columbia votes should be ignored and practicing lawyers were voting Harvard.

Sorry. I meant 0Ls voting are why Butler v Harvard is usually tied. If 0Ls didn't vote then Butler would win handedly.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:04 am

Rigo wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Rigo wrote:Any way you can get more money from Columbia? Have you negotiated at all?

Can you elaborate more on your view. I always enjoy your comments on these threads.

I'm sticking with my original suggestion (Columbia). I think the COA difference will end up being $80-$100k once you factor in interest and a decreased 3L aid package at Harvard after your 2L SA.

Yeah it sucks that you got fucked with YP and don't have a Dillard or something but these options aren't absolutely terrible either.

The reality is that you are probably going to go with the path of least resistance which is biglaw since you haven't articulated a burning desire to do PI or a more unicorn career path (and even then, it's still be a debate to be had at which is better). Therefore, it comes down to debt minimization. Both Columbia and Harvard will easily get you biglaw, so why pay $80k+ more and have that extra debt albatross?
Just my 2 cents, which is probably what mostly everyone else is thinking who voted Columbia.


Would this change if I told you that I'm getting 0 aid from Harvard and that my long term career goals are in secondary markets?

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star fox

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby star fox » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:06 am

You should be going to law school for free with those stats

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:06 am

star fox wrote:You should be going to law school for free with those stats


Wanna sponsor? :lol:

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:11 am

Nebby wrote:
Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Rigo wrote:
Nebby wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Considering that poll results on Butler vs. Harvard are usually even, why is Columbia ahead?

Because it's 0Ls who don't know shit skewing the polls

So are you saying Harvard here? I think what you're saying here is the opposite of what you mean.

I'm saying CLS and that 0Ls are dolts picking Harvard in the poll

I thought so. Just wanted to be clear for OP's sake since he asked why Columbia was winning and you said dumb 0L's which implied Columbia votes should be ignored and practicing lawyers were voting Harvard.

Sorry. I meant 0Ls voting are why Butler v Harvard is usually tied. If 0Ls didn't vote then Butler would win handedly.


I spoke to a friend who polled a group of NY lawyers (middle aged) about Butler vs. Hamilton, and they split on it. Is their perspective longer term or has this changed over time?

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:12 am

McMooch wrote:Would this change if I told you that I'm getting 0 aid from Harvard and that my long term career goals are in secondary markets?

Secondary markets are normally way more ties-centric and Columbia doesn't close doors so I fail to see how this really changes things, but I'll let someone with a more intimate knowledge of secondary market (wherever it is) hiring weigh in more definitively here.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:31 am

Rigo wrote:
McMooch wrote:Harvard - total COA $204,000 (COL is covered and anticipating tuition increase)

Columbia - total COA $140,000 (COL covered and 75k scholarship and anticipating tuition increase)

Financing via some savings, 2L SA, and loans. Probably 40k overall will be not from savings.

Can you explain this a bit for me?
When you say COL is covered, you're not subtracting that from the COA are you because if so they seem pretty high.

Also what does the bolded mean. Do you have enough savings to cover all but $40k, which you will take out loans for?


I am just factoring in tuition to coa because my col is covered. And saying that I'll throw probably 40k of my own money at it so subtract that from loans either way. Make sense?

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VeiledProtectorate

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby VeiledProtectorate » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:43 am

Almost half are going for Harvard. Can they really all be dumb 0Ls? I mean I'm definitely all for CLS/reapply here but I'm just curious if anyone who voted wants to defend HLS.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby LHS17 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:59 am

Rigo wrote:
McMooch wrote:Would this change if I told you that I'm getting 0 aid from Harvard and that my long term career goals are in secondary markets?

Secondary markets are normally way more ties-centric and Columbia doesn't close doors so I fail to see how this really changes things, but I'll let someone with a more intimate knowledge of secondary market (wherever it is) hiring weigh in more definitively here.


I can't speak for Columbia, but you should get every interview you sign up for with secondary market firms who come to Harvard. Having spoken to recent alumni and 3Ls in the secondary market I'm targeting, nobody was asked about grades, only ties. Prevailing view has been that a majority of Passes should be fine.

Because Columbia has a different grading system, I'd advise getting an anecdotal perspective from recent alums in your target market. I agree that Columbia shouldn't close doors, but worth verifying whether interview dynamics are different.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:11 am

McMooch wrote:
star fox wrote:You should be going to law school for free with those stats


Wanna sponsor? :lol:

No but something is wrong and you are going to be wasting at least $100,000, maybe more than $200,000. You will regret it later.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:17 am

LHS17 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
McMooch wrote:Would this change if I told you that I'm getting 0 aid from Harvard and that my long term career goals are in secondary markets?

Secondary markets are normally way more ties-centric and Columbia doesn't close doors so I fail to see how this really changes things, but I'll let someone with a more intimate knowledge of secondary market (wherever it is) hiring weigh in more definitively here.


I can't speak for Columbia, but you should get every interview you sign up for with secondary market firms who come to Harvard. Having spoken to recent alumni and 3Ls in the secondary market I'm targeting, nobody was asked about grades, only ties. Prevailing view has been that a majority of Passes should be fine.

Because Columbia has a different grading system, I'd advise getting an anecdotal perspective from recent alums in your target market. I agree that Columbia shouldn't close doors, but worth verifying whether interview dynamics are different.

You haven't even started law school yet. As I recall you have been pushing for Harvard because of your own wasteful decision and some mythical belief about the Harvard name.
You haven't started school or been through Harvard OCI, so why are you commenting?
OP these are the people voting for Harvard.

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UVA2B

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:59 am

McMooch wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
McMooch wrote:OP here, I don't think the opportunity cost is worth reapplying. Also parents aren't on board for that.

Maybe you can speak to the two options that I offered, because to me those are what I'm looking at.

I think there was massive yield protect going on this year with my application, and I applied in November. Truly maddening but such is life.


What opportunity cost? Let's say, for instance, you pay $140k for Columbia this year (which I think is the better option here, but don't think it's your best option). Now you consider reapplying while perfecting your apps, and you end up with a Mordecai (which is absolutely achievable), and your COA ends up being $60k (since you seem to have savings and other ways to defray COL making this pretty conservative). Now you're looking at a difference of $80k. Even under the most conservative estimates of present value combined with your income coming a year early, it's the safest investment.


Thanks for putting thought into this. I really would like to proceed with the assumption that I'm attending next year. But your points are well taken.


What decision do you think you're actually making here? This is an investment in a future career, plain and simple. The career you want is super generic at this point, and you've given zero reasons why waiting and reapplying (you don't even need to worry about studying for a retake) wouldn't be worth it beyond you and your parents not liking the idea of waiting. Columbia for $140k debt isn't a terrible outcome, but it's certainly a suboptimal one in your case. You're in the realistic territory where law school for free at a school that will put you in the exact same position as Columbia or Harvard (assuming median outcomes). Let's shift this around: why is going next year worth $80k+ hanging over your head for the next ten years of your life following graduation? How much cheaper would it have to be for the same professional outcome to convince you to wait a year and reapply?

I mean this sincerely: you're approaching this decision naively like this is Monopoly money that won't be growing and accruing interest your entire time in law school. And you're assuming there is an entire job market available at a place like Harvard or Columbia that a Penn or UVA grad would be shut down at. That job market doesn't really exist for the median graduate at any of these schools. The only potential differences between Harvard and Penn, for example, is a slightly increased shot at hard to get jobs like ACLU impact lit or DOJ Honors or firms like Wachtell. You don't seem to want those outcomes, and regardless it's not easy to get those types of jobs from anywhere. Speak to anyone here who is realizing the prospect of debt hanging over them and ask them if they would go back and wait a year to potentially eliminate 50-75% of that debt. They'd be like those crazy people who make a living getting bumped from overbooked flights running to the desk to collect their free $300 voucher. But as it stands, it sounds like you just want either confirmation that Harvard is/isn't worth $60k more than Columbia (it's not for your goals) or want to be convinced to take the prestige of the Harvard name because it'll permanently alter your future career in ways Columbia wouldn't (it's safe to say it won't in your case).

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:47 am

Npret wrote:
McMooch wrote:
star fox wrote:You should be going to law school for free with those stats


Wanna sponsor? :lol:

No but something is wrong and you are going to be wasting at least $100,000, maybe more than $200,000. You will regret it later.


I have no reason to believe that the fatal flaw in my application is from the materials I sent in (that were edited by professionals) or the timing of my application (November). So another roll of the dice doesn't seem reasonable. My earning potential with current UG is peanuts, and even the schools that should've expected me to come (Columbia NYU Penn) all wait-listed me. Full scholarship​ wasn't even a thought.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:50 am

Npret wrote:
LHS17 wrote:
Rigo wrote:
McMooch wrote:Would this change if I told you that I'm getting 0 aid from Harvard and that my long term career goals are in secondary markets?

Secondary markets are normally way more ties-centric and Columbia doesn't close doors so I fail to see how this really changes things, but I'll let someone with a more intimate knowledge of secondary market (wherever it is) hiring weigh in more definitively here.


I can't speak for Columbia, but you should get every interview you sign up for with secondary market firms who come to Harvard. Having spoken to recent alumni and 3Ls in the secondary market I'm targeting, nobody was asked about grades, only ties. Prevailing view has been that a majority of Passes should be fine.

Because Columbia has a different grading system, I'd advise getting an anecdotal perspective from recent alums in your target market. I agree that Columbia shouldn't close doors, but worth verifying whether interview dynamics are different.

You haven't even started law school yet. As I recall you have been pushing for Harvard because of your own wasteful decision and some mythical belief about the Harvard name.
You haven't started school or been through Harvard OCI, so why are you commenting?
OP these are the people voting for Harvard.


Do we want to poll everyone on their motivations? Who says that everyone isn't just trying to justify their own decision?

Let's just hear everyone out, and if the argument is not compelling its merits.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Nebby » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:56 am

VeiledProtectorate wrote:Almost half are going for Harvard. Can they really all be dumb 0Ls? I mean I'm definitely all for CLS/reapply here but I'm just curious if anyone who voted wants to defend HLS.

Yes it really can be all dumb 0Ls

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Dcc617

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:01 am

Nebby wrote:
VeiledProtectorate wrote:Almost half are going for Harvard. Can they really all be dumb 0Ls? I mean I'm definitely all for CLS/reapply here but I'm just curious if anyone who voted wants to defend HLS.

Yes it really can be all dumb 0Ls


Yeah, even 1Ls at Harvard have started to second guess turning down big scholarships.

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Dcc617

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:02 am

McMooch wrote:
Npret wrote:
McMooch wrote:
star fox wrote:You should be going to law school for free with those stats


Wanna sponsor? :lol:

No but something is wrong and you are going to be wasting at least $100,000, maybe more than $200,000. You will regret it later.


I have no reason to believe that the fatal flaw in my application is from the materials I sent in (that were edited by professionals) or the timing of my application (November). So another roll of the dice doesn't seem reasonable. My earning potential with current UG is peanuts, and even the schools that should've expected me to come (Columbia NYU Penn) all wait-listed me. Full scholarship​ wasn't even a thought.


You're dumb then.

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby McMooch » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:08 am

Dcc617 wrote:
McMooch wrote:
Npret wrote:
McMooch wrote:
star fox wrote:You should be going to law school for free with those stats


Wanna sponsor? :lol:

No but something is wrong and you are going to be wasting at least $100,000, maybe more than $200,000. You will regret it later.


I have no reason to believe that the fatal flaw in my application is from the materials I sent in (that were edited by professionals) or the timing of my application (November). So another roll of the dice doesn't seem reasonable. My earning potential with current UG is peanuts, and even the schools that should've expected me to come (Columbia NYU Penn) all wait-listed me. Full scholarship​ wasn't even a thought.


You're dumb then.


Maybe that's what it is. They sensed my poor executive decision skills and decided to stay far away. Fatal flaw

Monday

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Re: Harvard vs. Columbia ($)

Postby Monday » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:11 am

.
Last edited by Monday on Thu May 11, 2017 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



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